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Regarding 'Creation Stories'

Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Good-Ole-Rebel said:
Because the Bible is the Word of God. (2 Tim. 3:16)

The Bible declares it is the Word of God. "Thus saith the Lord" permeates the Old Testament. The New Testament is equally acknowledged. (John 16:13) (John 17:17) (1 Thess. 2:13) etc. etc. etc.

The mistake is yours.

Good-Ole-Rebel
Click to expand...
Nope, "Thus saith the Lord" could only be said to apply to that specific quote, not the whole Bible. And your examples only appear to be creative interpretation by you. None of them say that the Bible is the word of God.

You have to take verses out of context and reinterpret them to make your claim, in other word the Bible does not say what you think that it says.
 
Goodman John

Goodman John

Active Member
Good-Ole-Rebel said:
Because the Bible is the Word of God. (2 Tim. 3:16)

The Bible declares it is the Word of God. "Thus saith the Lord" permeates the Old Testament. The New Testament is equally acknowledged. (John 16:13) (John 17:17) (1 Thess. 2:13) etc. etc. etc.

The mistake is yours.

Good-Ole-Rebel
Click to expand...

Sadly, it's back to circular reasoning. "The Bible is the Word of God because it says it's the Word of God". That, unfortunately, proves NOTHING. I can claim I *AM* God and you must believe me because I say so, but does that prove in any way that I am God?

As for 'thus sayeth the Lord' in the OT, I have some definite thoughts on that, and not one of them points to 'God' in the OT not being God at all.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Goodman John said:
Sadly, it's back to circular reasoning. "The Bible is the Word of God because it says it's the Word of God". That, unfortunately, proves NOTHING. I can claim I *AM* God and you must believe me because I say so, but does that prove in any way that I am God?

As for 'thus sayeth the Lord' in the OT, I have some definite thoughts on that, and not one of them points to 'God' in the OT not being God at all.
Click to expand...

Worse than that it is an abuse of what the Bible actually says. Some bits are supposedly the word of God, and you are right, besides circular reasoning he has offered nothing. But that does not mean that one can apply that to the Bible as a whole. Even when it says "scripture" that is a very poorly defined term. The Bible, as we know it today, did not exist when those lines were written, so once again even using poor circular reasoning it could not apply to the whole Bible and not to the New Testament at all. If read in context it is clear that at best those verses on scripture refer to writings that might be in the Old Testament today.
 
Goodman John

Goodman John

Active Member
Subduction Zone said:
Worse than that it is an abuse of what the Bible actually says. Some bits are supposedly the word of God, and you are right, besides circular reasoning he has offered nothing. But that does not mean that one can apply that to the Bible as a whole. Even when it says "scripture" that is a very poorly defined term. The Bible, as we know it today, did not exist when those lines were written, so once again even using poor circular reasoning it could not apply to the whole Bible and not to the New Testament at all. If read in context it is clear that at best those verses on scripture refer to writings that might be in the Old Testament today.
Click to expand...

I count myself as a Gnostic Christian- a Cathar- so I do lend credence to some of the Bible (and some documents that aren't in the Bible). However, that doesn't mean I give a blanket Seal of Approval to it, nor do I accept it as 100% the literal, accurate recording of events 'back in the day'.

My primary part in this- for the present- is to show that while some may believe 100% in the veracity of the Bible, the arguments used to articulate this are sadly lacking. For myself, I am reasonably sure I am not going to argue down an avowed atheist, or a Hindu or Muslim- or even another Christian with such arguments as 'it's true because it says it's true'. That simply doesn't fly- and the sad thing about it is that EVERYONE knows this sort of argument doesn't fly for anything, yet they employ it constantly.

If Christians- or Hindus or Muslims or Jews, or what have you- want to argue their faith, they are simply going to have to come up with better arguments. If you can't offer a competent argument for your faith, do it- and yourself- a big favor and just don't say anything.
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
Audie said:
Picking and choosing is simply deliberate self deception.
Some of us are not good at lying to ourselves.

Are you an exception, you did not choose, like all those
others?
Click to expand...
No, I'm not an exception, though I make an effort to submit my thoughts to the light of God's word, rather than impose my ideas upon it.
Just saying as humans we have a tendency to pick and choose what we like or want.
 
Goodman John

Goodman John

Active Member
InChrist said:
No, I'm not an exception, though I make an effort to submit my thoughts to the light of God's word, rather than impose my ideas upon it.
Just saying as humans we have a tendency to pick and choose what we like or want.
Click to expand...

In my case, I look at what the core of the Bible is, and to me that's the Gospels. What Jesus said and did. In my view, only those are relevant and everything else is commentary. I generally don't go for the 'inspired by God' routine and, while I clearly understand the veracity of the Gospels themselves is sometimes in question, what we do have gets at the heart of what we should be learning.

I reject the conventional view of the OT outright, but the scope of that tale is immense :D
 
Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
Nope, "Thus saith the Lord" could only be said to apply to that specific quote, not the whole Bible. And your examples only appear to be creative interpretation by you. None of them say that the Bible is the word of God.

You have to take verses out of context and reinterpret them to make your claim, in other word the Bible does not say what you think that it says.
Click to expand...

I didn't take any verses out of context. Nice try. But...try again.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 
Audie

Audie

Veteran Member
InChrist said:
No, I'm not an exception, though I make an effort to submit my thoughts to the light of God's word, rather than impose my ideas upon it.
Just saying as humans we have a tendency to pick and choose what we like or want.
Click to expand...

Of course.

It takes self discipline not to pick and
choose.

Few even bother to try.

Least of all the religious for whom keeping
the faith despite all is a highest virtue.
 
Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
Goodman John said:
Sadly, it's back to circular reasoning. "The Bible is the Word of God because it says it's the Word of God". That, unfortunately, proves NOTHING. I can claim I *AM* God and you must believe me because I say so, but does that prove in any way that I am God?

As for 'thus sayeth the Lord' in the OT, I have some definite thoughts on that, and not one of them points to 'God' in the OT not being God at all.
Click to expand...

As I have said before, I am not worried about 'circular reasoning' . The Bible declares that it is the Word of God. If you don't want to believe it, that's fine. Don't.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
Goodman John said:
In my case, I look at what the core of the Bible is, and to me that's the Gospels. What Jesus said and did. In my view, only those are relevant and everything else is commentary. I generally don't go for the 'inspired by God' routine and, while I clearly understand the veracity of the Gospels themselves is sometimes in question, what we do have gets at the heart of what we should be learning.

I reject the conventional view of the OT outright, but the scope of that tale is immense :D
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing your perspective.
I just take the Bible, OT and NT as God's inspired Word.
Of course, I never used to and so much of it made no sense to me....until I was saved and personally met Jesus. Then it was like the light came on and all the scriptures flowed together in perfect sense and unity.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
InChrist said:
Thanks for sharing your perspective.
I just take the Bible, OT and NT as God's inspired Word.
Of course, I never used to and so much of it made no sense to me....until I was saved and personally met Jesus. Then it was like the light came on and all the scriptures flowed together in perfect sense and unity.
Click to expand...
Inspired does not necessarily mean that one is to take it literally.
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
Subduction Zone said:
Inspired does not necessarily mean that one is to take it literally.
Click to expand...
I respect your view about it.
I am of the view that there are certainly parts of the Bible that are meant to be allegorical. Yet the parts which are presented as real life events, listing the real people involved, I see as meant to be taken as historical accounts of events that actually happened.
I don't think we will agree on this subject and that's okay with me. I don't want to debate or argue with you and you are free to think I'm ignorant, brainwashed, or whatever you like.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
InChrist said:
I respect your view about it.
I am of the view that there are certainly parts of the Bible that are meant to be allegorical. Yet the parts which are presented as real life events, listing the real people involved, I see as meant to be taken as historical accounts of events that actually happened.
I don't think we will agree on this subject and that's okay with me. I don't want to debate or argue with you and you are free to think I'm ignorant, brainwashed, or whatever you like.
Click to expand...

Here is the problem, if you believe that God created the Earth, then he created the evidence that we see when we study the Earth. Your God's work tells us that Genesis is not literally true. You are denying your God's work and calling him a liar when you demand that. Genesis should not be read literally.


You may also be guilty of blasphemy. You are trying to tell your God how he had to make the Earth.
 
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P

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Audie said:
So you believe "Jesus" was a lamb. Baa Baa.
No, a door!
Click to expand...

As they say, "There's sheep and there's goats"

The Messiah is described in the Old Testament as the one who laid down his life
for the sheep, and as the spotless lamb whose life is taken away.
 
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