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Reason the Bible is invalid

Discussion in 'Latter-day Saints DIR' started by BUDDY, Dec 28, 2005.

  1. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    I believe that some of them are very significant. For example, the JST puts Christ in the Old Testament, and the prophets of the Old Testament knew who they were talking about. In the JST, the gospel of Jesus Christ was taught from the beginning.

    Also, the actions of God change. In the KJV, God repents. In the JST, Noah repents. In the KJV, the Lord leads us to temptation. In the JST, we ask not to be led into temptation. Also, in the KJV, God hardens our hearts. In the JST, we are allowed to harden our own hearts.

    More examples are shown in the link I posted above. While I agree that some of the changes are very insignificant (changing 'from' to 'through' in Luke 20:35 for example), many teach important concepts.
     
  2. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I agree. Some of them are very significant. I think that the vast majority of them, however, aren't. Why don't you post a few of the ones you mentioned -- the complete verses from both the KJV and the JST.
     
  3. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Good idea. :)

    Genesis 6:6 (KJV) - It repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."
    Moses 8:25 (JST) - "And it repented Noah, and his heart was pained, that the Lord had made man on the earth."

    Isaiah 63:17 (KJV) - O Lord, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear?
    Isaiah 63:17 (JST) - O Lord, why hast thou suffered us to err from thy ways, and to harden our heart from thy fear?


    Matthew 6:13 (KJV) - And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
    JS-Matthew 6:14 (JST) - And suffer us not to be led into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
     
  4. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

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    So basically you believe in two forms of salvation. I would think this to be such an important point in religious belief, that this teaching would not be avoided by the Bible. The Bible only teaches that salvation is given by God to those who except it through faith and follow God's plan of salvation. See Luke 7:50; Luke 19:10; Romans 10:13; Acts 2:38 and many, many others.

    Also, I have a question in reference to this. According to what you said earlier, all people are basically saved, but only some will progress to have the full reward that can be acheived. But according to Alma 11:40, which reads, "And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else", there could not be an unconditional salvation. According to this writting, either you are saved or you are not. It is pretty cut and dry to me. Of course, not believing that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, I don't believe that this passage is from God either. There are a lot of scriptures in the Bible that say pretty much the same thing as well.

    To say there was a total apostasy would be to credit Jesus Christ with a gross lie. Jesus said, Upon this rock will I build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18) As Acts 4:11-12 clearly states that rock was Jesus Christ. I Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times SOME shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. Indeed some have fallen away, but the gates of hell will not prevail against the church that was founded on Jesus Christ.

    Mormonism seems to stand or fall on its foundation of prophetic and apostolic leaders. You have used Ephesians 2:20 as your scriptural support for believing that your prophets are the foundation of the true church. It reads: And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone. The problem seems to be that you only read half the verse. The latter portion of the verse clearly states that since Christ is the chief cornerstone, we have a foundation now that is firmly put together. I can also refer to I Corinthians 3:11 - For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. The Bible also tells us that the coming of John the Baptist marked the end of the Old Testament era. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John (Matthew 11:13). The law and the prophets were until John...(Luke 16:16)
    You have claimed authority in a human priesthood, but authority comes from the living Word of God, the Bible: But as many as received him, to them gave he power (authority) to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. (John 1:12)
     
  5. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    The authority for the Bible did come through God, as it was said in 1 Timothy that All scripture was God inspired. The basic tenents of salvation from the original texts in the 1st century have been preserved, but provide more modernized language so that it could be understood by a lay person. It is just my personal opinion, but I do not put any stock in an 18th century charleton such as Joseph Smith being God-inspired. Secondly, when you compare the fact that a number of archeaoligical findings have done more to validate people, places and things in the Bible versus virtually no such evidence applicable to the Book of Mormon, speaks to the authenticity and authoratative nature of the Bible.:bounce
     
  6. john63

    john63 titmouse

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    Umm..Joseph Smith was a 19th century charlatan.:jiggy:
     
  7. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Only off by 100 years. Thanks for the correction.
     
  8. benjosh

    benjosh Member

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    EEWRED

    I am a believer in the latter day work, but I agree totally with the part of your quote that I have placed above.

    The internal testimony of the latter day scriptures does not speak of any supposed apostasy and in fact affirms what Jesus said in Matthew 16:18.


    BenJosh
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I don't believe this point is avoided in the Bible. It may not be discussed in great depth, but it certainly is alluded to.

    1 Corinthians 15:40-42 states, "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead."

    We believe that there will be differing degrees of glory in Heaven, and that a higher degree of glory is contingent upon a person's degree of commitment to the Savior. Jesus Christ himself said that when He returns, He wil "reward every man according to His works." If there are only two states -- salvation and damnation -- what would He have meant by this statement.

    It strikes me as a little bit amusing that you would point out that you don't believe the passage from Alma is from God, although you seem to think it is pretty much in agreement with God's word. That sounds like a kind of a thin line to me.

    Keep in mind that to a Latter-day Saint, the words "Eternal Life" are referring to the fullness of salvation. When we speak among ourselves of being "saved," we are thinking in terms of salvation in the Celestial Kingdom, which we also say to be "Life Eternal." Also remember that we don't believe that this tiny span of 70-80 years alone determines our eternal destiny. Of course our mortality is of great importance, but God alone knows the hearts of His children. There are people living now and people who have lived and died who never had the opportunity to believe on the name of Jesus Christ. Many of these people may very well receive a higher degree of glory than many Latter-day Saints.



    What exactly do you understand the phrase, "the gates of Hell" to mean? I think your interpretation of this passage is causing some misunderstanding.

    On the contrary, we firmly believe that Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of our Church -- His Church. The Church is, after all, named after Him. But, no structure can remain standing if its foundation falls. A Church built on a foundation of prophets and apostles will crumble if the foundation crumbles.


    I couldn't agree more!


    Why then did Jesus bother to appoint prophets if He was not going to continue to speak through them?


    I believe you're wrong here. 1 Corinthians 4:20 states: "For the kingdom of God is not inword, but in power." The Bible is vital to our understanding, but it provides no power itself. Power is given only by God, by the laying on of hands.

    Thank you for your posts, EEWRED. I'm enjoying this discussion very much.

    Kathryn
     
  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    You're right. It is just your personal opinion.

    Do you base your belief in the Bible on archealogical findings? What a poor reason to believe.
     
  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Again?
     
  12. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

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    In this passage, the apostle Paul was making a direct reference to a comparison of the body before and after resurection. Apparently there were some in Corinth, who were asking a lot of questions concerning the nature of our mortal bodies in the afterlife, and thinking it foolish to believe in such because they couldn't understand how there coruptable bodies could be made incorruptable. I do not, when reading the passage in context, see a direct reference to any other form of salvation, but rather Paul's attempt to explain that they should not be foolish when contemplating the thing that God is capable of. Look at the whole passage, starting in verse 32 and reading on. What profit is it to Paul if he be threatened with beasts for preaching the gospel, whne there is no afterlife? In other words, he is saying, do you think that I would be putting my life at risk if I did not believe that God would reward me for my faithfulness?

    Well, if I can point you towards a passage in what you believe to be the inspired word, that condradict the rest of your inspired word, then maybe you can see that it is full of inaccuracies and not the inspired word of God.

    The gates of hell are the most powerful thing that there is next to the power of God. God's power is number one and next to that is the power of Satan, but even the power of Satan will not be able to prevail against the establishment of the church. In other words, what God has established can not be undermind by the most powerful thing in the universe that may wish to undermind it, let alone the corruption of man.


    Is that the foundation that Peter said? He said, "that thou are the Christ, the Son of the Living God" and Jesus that upon that confession (Jesus, the Son of God) would the church be built. Jesus is the foundation. His teaching, doctrine, death, burial and resurrection. Are you saying that the foundation of Jesus can crumble? Certainly a church built by a man will crumble. Prophets and Apostles are merely men, whether they exist in our modern world or not. Jesus teachings can never be shaken, and it is Jesus that is the foundation.




    Jesus didn't appoint prophets. He appointed apostles and he had disciples. Do you know the difference?
    A Prophet was someone in the Old Testament who was chosen by God the Father to speak on behalf of Him to the children of Israel. They were not witnesses of Christ, and had never seen him. John the Baptist was a prophet until he witness Christ.
    An Apostle was a witness unto Christ and chosen by him to be a direct student of Him and his teaching. Paul, even though not one of the original twelve, was an apostle because Jesus appeared to him directly on the raod to Demascus. Because he became a witness of Christ and chosen by Him, he is classified as an apostle.
    A disciple is someone who is a follower of Jesus Christ. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ because I try sincerely to follow His gospel. The same can be said for anyone who does the same.
    All Apostles are Disciples, but not all Disciples are Apostles.

    How can I be wrong when all I did was quote a scripture?

    The word of God is all that we need and does give power though. You need to look at 1 Cor 4:20 in context.
    [15] For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
    [16] Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
    [17] For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
    [18] Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.
    [19] But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
    [20] For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
    He was talking about how that the proof is in the pudding, so to speak, with whether or not he would be able to make it out to see them, even though at this time he was in prison. It doesn't have anything to do with the power of God's word, but with the power of the words of men.

    2 Timothy 3:
    [15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    Well, if the Word is all we need to be perfected of God, then why would we still need Apostles and Prophets? We don't. The Apostles and Prophets were given by God to man, to impart the knowledge of God's will to man, because it had not been written down yet. Now that we have God's Holy and Written Word, we don't need any additional instruction according to Paul.

    Hebrews 4:
    [12] For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    The Word of God seems pretty powerful to me.

    Hebrews 3:
    [1] Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

    We don't need a High Priest, Apostle, Prophet or anything else now that Christ has interceded once and for all for us.

    Also, on another note. The laying on of hands in the New Testament was used to impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit. A supernatural indwelling that was given to those who would teach and preach the, as of yet, unwritten word of God. Thsoe things have now passed according to Paul's letter to the Corinthians, and the Holy Spirit dwells within us now so far as we read and study God's word today.

    The Holy Bible, that is.

    Ditto Kiddo.:D
     
  13. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    I was wondering, if Joseph Smith was the prophet to fix where the church went wrong, why, when I bring up statements he made, that many times the answer i get is that the LDS does not adhere to those anymore? I believe there will be and is a great apostasy to happen in the last days, and there will be false prophets leading people astray, could it be possible that he was one of those false prophets? After-all many of his prophecies did not come true, like the building of that temple in Missouri, and many of his teachings are discarded by the LDS today, so, can there not be some questioning of it all on your part? I believe in varying degrees of reward in Heaven and punishment in Hell, too, I mean, we believe closely, but not exactly on many things, and I admire you all, as opposed to folks who do not care a whit about spiritual, Godly, eternal matters, honestly, but I wonder, do you ever question anything you believe, or is that a big no-no in your religion? I know I questioned EVERYTHING about Christianity when I hit my teens and twenties, and did not stop until I felt I knew the real truth. Is that okay for me to wonder?

    Thanks,

    Mike
     
  14. Bishka

    Bishka Veteran Member

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    What teachings of the Lord's does the LDS church not follow today?
     
  15. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    I did not mean the Lord's, I meant Joseph Smith's. Everytime I have used a statement of his, the response I usually get is that that is not the LDS's official belief, or is not in their main books.
     
  16. Bishka

    Bishka Veteran Member

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    Like what? I believe 99.9% of what came out of Joseph Smith's mouth came from the Lord, so enlighten my curious mind, will you?
     
  17. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Okay, well, I gonna post some links, if you would be interested in looking at them, the first is just why I am asking, and the differences I see, the second is the teachings of Joseph Smith from his books, and the 3rd has to do with whether he is a true prophet.

    http://www.afcministry.com/If_you_are_a_Mormon_please_read_this.htm

    http://www.afcministry.com/What_do_Mormons_believe_about_God.htm

    http://www.afcministry.com/Joseph_Smith_prophet.htm

    All I ask is that you consider them, that is all.
     
  18. Bishka

    Bishka Veteran Member

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    Consider what? Could you give me a couple of examples yourself.
     
  19. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    I can't say, because, some of you say you believe God was once a man, some say you do not know for sure, Joseph Smith believed absolutely that God attained Godhood, was once a man, that he has not always been God, and just many things about God, that plain Bible-only folks do not believe. The second link in the above post tells from his own writings what he believed, if that is what you believe then thats fine.
     
  20. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    *** MOD POST ***

    This is turning into a debate, folks. We're on the LDS discussion forum, remember? We're discussing how the Latter-day Saints view the Bible. We're not debating whether or not Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
     
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