Re-Industrialisation

[Laika]

I was wondering what the views of other Capitalists on RF were about Re-industrialisation in the United States or the UK. There is an argument to be made that these economies have become "too dependent" on Financial Services and have therefore distorted the economy away from physical production of wealth to merely circulating it through global financial flows and stock market speculation. Relying on Finance may also makes the economy more unstable given it tends to be much more mobile than factories and physical assets. Whether its based on heavy industry or (as is more likely) high-tech industries, it is hard to escape the fact that money only has value when it can be exchanged for something.

Do you think Re-Industrialisation is something that needs to happen in order to make the market work towards wealth production? Or is this just protectionism and a rationale for unnecessary government intervention?

Entering Capitalist Only Sub-forum

 

[corynski]

I was wondering what the views of other Capitalists on RF were about Re-industrialisation in the United States or the UK. There is an argument to be made that these economies have become "too dependent" on Financial Services and have therefore distorted the economy away from physical production of wealth to merely circulating it through global financial flows and stock market speculation. Relying on Finance may also makes the economy more unstable given it tends to be much more mobile than factories and physical assets. Whether its based on heavy industry or (as is more likely) high-tech industries, it is hard to escape the fact that money only has value when it can be exchanged for something.

Do you think Re-Industrialisation is something that needs to happen in order to make the market work towards wealth production? Or is this just protectionism and a rationale for unnecessary government intervention?

Entering Capitalist Only Sub-forum

Lalka....... When I was a boy a coke was 5 cents and a pack of cigarettes was 15 cents. A trolley ride was 3 cents and a stamp was 2 cents. Today the US has debased its currency until the country is trillions of dollars in debt, a coke is a dollar, cigs are 5 dollars and up, a trolley ride is a buck and a stamp is 55 cents. Inflation has historically destroyed all inflated currencies by making them worthless such as the german mark in 1922. Everything I look at in the US says 'Made in China', and I really wonder what the outcome will be. Recently I see oil being priced in chinese Yuan, perhaps the beginning of something. Silver and gold look ready to break out. With trillions of dollars debt, how will the US ever get back its production facilities?

 

[Laika]

Lalka....... When I was a boy a coke was 5 cents and a pack of cigarettes was 15 cents. A trolley ride was 3 cents and a stamp was 2 cents. Today the US has debased its currency until the country is trillions of dollars in debt, a coke is a dollar, cigs are 5 dollars and up, a trolley ride is a buck and a stamp is 55 cents. Inflation has historically destroyed all inflated currencies by making them worthless such as the german mark in 1922. Everything I look at in the US says 'Made in China', and I really wonder what the outcome will be. Recently I see oil being priced in chinese Yuan, perhaps the beginning of something. Silver and gold look ready to break out. With trillions of dollars debt, how will the US ever get back its production facilities?

More debt probably, through tax cuts or subsidies for certain sectors. Maybe higher tariffs to protect domestic Industry. Possibly favourable regulatory practices to make private finance go into industry (which on paper cost the public/government nothing).

The results may be more advantageous to reducing the national debt than stock market and real estate speculation in the very long-run, but it would seem like more debt would be the logical outcome.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I do not have figures, but I think we produce plenty. We just don't employ workers, because robots can do most of the production. By not employing more workers we shrink the economy, however there is production. Probably what we need to focus on is helping people train for various jobs and find those jobs. Plus it is quite difficult to start a business without a lot of startup capital. There is no reason that it should be so expensive to start something. I suggest public paid, insured lawyers who work for anyone trying to start businesses, and I suggest educational accrediting agencies who will accredit students who study independently -- somewhat like computer certifications are done.

 

[Father]

well, we would have to heavily sanction all imports for companies to force them to move production here.

 

[Nakosis]

I do not have figures, but I think we produce plenty. We just don't employ workers, because robots can do most of the production. By not employing more workers we shrink the economy, however there is production. Probably what we need to focus on is helping people train for various jobs and find those jobs. Plus it is quite difficult to start a business without a lot of startup capital. There is no reason that it should be so expensive to start something. I suggest public paid, insured lawyers who work for anyone trying to start businesses, and I suggest educational accrediting agencies who will accredit students who study independently -- somewhat like computer certifications are done.

There's not much robots/computers won't be able to do anymore. It's only going to get worse I suspect. Corporations will employ robots. They no incentive to support the welfare of the masses.

Build a wall around the country. Toss the majority of folks on the other side, let them fend for themselves. I wonder how dystopian we can get.

The tech threat: Moving towards a dystopian future

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Re-industrialisation would be a wonderful thing for the United States or England, since actually making things that other people want is the only way to create wealth. (As a society, not just for a few)
However, unless Americans and British want to work for wages that are competitive, then it will not happen.
And we will continue to diminish our wealth, as we make other countries more wealthy.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Build a wall around the country. Toss the majority of folks on the other side, let them fend for themselves. I wonder how dystopian we can get.

I doubt things will get like that everywhere. In some places its like that even without robots.

There's not much robots/computers won't be able to do anymore. It's only going to get worse I suspect. Corporations will employ robots. They no incentive to support the welfare of the masses.

There are two sides to that coin. One side of the coin is that you can start manufacturing things for yourself. You are no longer stuck buying things from large scale manufacturers. You can use a robot or two, and then you no longer need to buy manufactured goods, only raw materials.

 

[Enoch07]

I was wondering what the views of other Capitalists on RF were about Re-industrialisation in the United States or the UK. There is an argument to be made that these economies have become "too dependent" on Financial Services and have therefore distorted the economy away from physical production of wealth to merely circulating it through global financial flows and stock market speculation. Relying on Finance may also makes the economy more unstable given it tends to be much more mobile than factories and physical assets. Whether its based on heavy industry or (as is more likely) high-tech industries, it is hard to escape the fact that money only has value when it can be exchanged for something.

Do you think Re-Industrialisation is something that needs to happen in order to make the market work towards wealth production? Or is this just protectionism and a rationale for unnecessary government intervention?

Entering Capitalist Only Sub-forum
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There are a 2 of factors keeping this from happening.

1. Availability of cheap labor outside of the U.S.

I once worked for a company that makes high pressure vessels. McDonald's Co2 tanks for the soft drinks was their biggest customer. They paid me $10 per hour (forklift driver, I was desperate for a job, long story) to load up individual pieces of unassembled tanks in crate to be shipped to China for assembly. Even with the 30 day import/export quarantine of anything coming and going to china, the cost of shipping back and forth to China, it was still cheaper to send them to China for assembly than pay American welders $20ish per hour to weld them. Heck the reason they fired me was because I raised hell and refused to do it because I was working myself and co-workers out of a job. Never felt so good to quit/be fired from a job! Luckily a month later a spot opened up for the career I am currently in so all is well.

2. Lack of skilled workers.

Again since I have first hand knowledge I cite the same job as above. The country is desperate for skilled labor. Welders, truck drivers, industrial techs, electricians, hazmat certified, OSHA certified etc etc etc workers. Hardly anyone wants to do these jobs anymore. And what little jobs are still available in these fields are hard to fill. Manual labor is avoided like the plague nowadays.

Anyways if these 2 issues could be resolved there might be a way to revitalize the industrialization in the U.S. There are more issues I am sure of it. But these 2 in my mind are big hurdles.

 

[Laika]

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There are a 2 of factors keeping this from happening.

1. Availability of cheap labor outside of the U.S.

I once worked for a company that makes high pressure vessels. McDonald's Co2 tanks for the soft drinks was their biggest customer. They paid me $10 per hour (forklift driver, I was desperate for a job, long story) to load up individual pieces of unassembled tanks in crate to be shipped to China for assembly. Even with the 30 day import/export quarantine of anything coming and going to china, the cost of shipping back and forth to China, it was still cheaper to send them to China for assembly than pay American welders $20ish per hour to weld them. Heck the reason they fired me was because I raised hell and refused to do it because I was working myself and co-workers out of a job. Never felt so good to quit/be fired from a job! Luckily a month later a spot opened up for the career I am currently in so all is well.

2. Lack of skilled workers.

Again since I have first hand knowledge I cite the same job as above. The country is desperate for skilled labor. Welders, truck drivers, industrial techs, electricians, hazmat certified, OSHA certified etc etc etc workers. Hardly anyone wants to do these jobs anymore. And what little jobs are still available in these fields are hard to fill. Manual labor is avoided like the plague nowadays.

Anyways if these 2 issues could be resolved there might be a way to revitalize the industrialization in the U.S. There are more issues I am sure of it. But these 2 in my mind are big hurdles.

Thanks. I think you're definitely right on both of these. You'd have to get students to study things like engineering at University so they'd have the skills to actually "build stuff". In the UK we have jokes about "polish plumbers" because they come over to the UK and fix our plumbing because they're aren't enough qualified plumbers here. Its probably the same kind of thing for Mexicans in the US.

 

[Enoch07]

Thanks. I think you're definitely right on both of these. You'd have to get students to study things like engineering at University so they'd have the skills to actually "build stuff". In the UK we have jokes about "polish plumbers" because they come over to the UK and fix our plumbing because they're aren't enough qualified plumbers here. Its probably the same kind of thing for Mexicans in the US.

That's sounds about right. Same thing in Germany with Turkish workers that come over and work for extremely low pay. I worked with some on a horsefarm when I lived in Germany. One guy I worked with worked for an entire summer just to save enough money to buy some pvc pipe so that he could have running water in his house. He was so proud and excited. He would be the first in his village with indoor plumbing!

 

[Laika]

That's sounds about right. Same thing in Germany with Turkish workers that come over and work for extremely low pay. I worked with some on a horsefarm when I lived in Germany. One guy I worked with worked for an entire summer just to save enough money to buy some pvc pipe so that he could have running water in his house. He was so proud and excited. He would be the first in his village with indoor plumbing!

I'm almost envious of his ability to enjoy the little things in life. We take so much for granted in the west that even indoor plumbing loses its significance. Its a historical wonder really and many around the world still don't have it.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I was wondering what the views of other Capitalists on RF were about Re-industrialisation in the United States or the UK. There is an argument to be made that these economies have become "too dependent" on Financial Services and have therefore distorted the economy away from physical production of wealth to merely circulating it through global financial flows and stock market speculation. Relying on Finance may also makes the economy more unstable given it tends to be much more mobile than factories and physical assets. Whether its based on heavy industry or (as is more likely) high-tech industries, it is hard to escape the fact that money only has value when it can be exchanged for something.

Do you think Re-Industrialisation is something that needs to happen in order to make the market work towards wealth production? Or is this just protectionism and a rationale for unnecessary government intervention?

Entering Capitalist Only Sub-forum

I think free Innovation and industrialization is crucial for a successful country.