Re: 002.116

[Union jack]

Is it haram to consider Isa the begotten son of Allah?

 

[Gharib]

Yes it is haram.

The Qur'an states numerous times that it is a great sin and forgery to associate Isa as the son of Allah.

112:1 Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
112:2 Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
112:3 He neither begets nor is born,
112:4 Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

 

[Pegg]

Yes it is haram.

The Qur'an states numerous times that it is a great sin and forgery to associate Isa as the son of Allah.

112:1 Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
112:2 Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
112:3 He neither begets nor is born,
112:4 Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

Do not the Holy Scriptures use the expression “son of God” in reference to Adam? Adam was called a son of God because he was created by God and he had no human father or mother.
And its really the same with Jesus Christ. He is called the son of God, for his life came directly from God. The Qur’ān states: “The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be’: And he was.”—Āl ‘Imrān [3]:59.

In Arabic there is an expression “son of the village” or “the son of the language” or “son of the road”
What does it mean to use such an expressions? Does it mean the village or language or road got married and gave birth to this person???

Im sure you undestand that it is 'figurative' speech. And likewise it is 'figurative' when the bible says that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[Breathe]

Yes.

The Qur'an is clear that Allah has no other to whom He is comparable, He is not born, does not have children, and any attempt associate partners with Him is considered shirk, which is the biggest sin one can commit in Islam.

 

[Gharib]

Do not the Holy Scriptures use the expression “son of God” in reference to Adam? Adam was called a son of God because he was created by God and he had no human father or mother.
And its really the same with Jesus Christ. He is called the son of God, for his life came directly from God. The Qur’ān states: “The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be’: And he was.”—Āl ‘Imrān [3]:59.

In Arabic there is an expression “son of the village” or “the son of the language” or “son of the road”
What does it mean to use such an expressions? Does it mean the village or language or road got married and gave birth to this person???

Im sure you undestand that it is 'figurative' speech. And likewise it is 'figurative' when the bible says that Jesus is the Son of God.

Never in the Qur'an is Adam referred to as 'the son of God' , metaphorically or literally.

The verse you've quoted is directed at those who believe that Jesus in the literal son of God. Thus, according to the verse and to logical thinking, if Jesus is the son of God for not having had a father then Adam is just as much the son of God for having no father nor a mother. Yet they don't say this.

In the Arabic language there do exist such examples as you have mentioned. A companion of the Prophet who was of Persian descent was once asked who's son he was and he replied 'I am the son of Islam'.

Just as Abu Huraira, a companion of the Prophet and the great hadith narrator was given the nick name Abu Huraira due to his love for small kittens. Abu Huraira means the 'Father of kittens' (something like that).

However, never does the Qur'an refer to Adam or Jesus as the sons of God, not in the literal sense and not in the metaphorical sense.

 

[Pegg]

Never in the Qur'an is Adam referred to as 'the son of God' , metaphorically or literally.

The verse you've quoted is directed at those who believe that Jesus in the literal son of God. Thus, according to the verse and to logical thinking, if Jesus is the son of God for not having had a father then Adam is just as much the son of God for having no father nor a mother. Yet they don't say this.

In the Arabic language there do exist such examples as you have mentioned. A companion of the Prophet who was of Persian descent was once asked who's son he was and he replied 'I am the son of Islam'.

Just as Abu Huraira, a companion of the Prophet and the great hadith narrator was given the nick name Abu Huraira due to his love for small kittens. Abu Huraira means the 'Father of kittens' (something like that).

However, never does the Qur'an refer to Adam or Jesus as the sons of God, not in the literal sense and not in the metaphorical sense.

but the bible DOES name Adam as a Son of God. And that is found in the writings of Moses. So being called a 'son of God' does not mean God had a wife and child.

Adam is called a 'son' in the book of Genesis. So it is a 'figurative' meaning in the bible to be called Gods son. It doesnt mean God had a wife and child...it is just as you mention 'Father of Kittens'... that doesnt mean that Abu Huraira gave birth to kittens.

And nor does the expression 'son of God' in the bible mean that God gave birth to anyone. Rather it means that God 'created' the person just as the Quran states “The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be’: And he was.”—Āl ‘Imrān [3]:59.

Being called a 'son' in your language is not always meant literally... nor is it in the bible.

 

[Gharib]

but the bible DOES name Adam as a Son of God. And that is found in the writings of Moses. So being called a 'son of God' does not mean God had a wife and child.

Adam is called a 'son' in the book of Genesis. So it is a 'figurative' meaning in the bible to be called Gods son. It doesnt mean God had a wife and child...it is just as you mention 'Father of Kittens'... that doesnt mean that Abu Huraira gave birth to kittens.

And nor does the expression 'son of God' in the bible mean that God gave birth to anyone. Rather it means that God 'created' the person just as the Quran states “The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be’: And he was.”—Āl ‘Imrān [3]:59.

Being called a 'son' in your language is not always meant literally... nor is it in the bible.

I can't argue with you on how the Bible works nor how it should be interpreted. But I can tell you, although you already know, that there are Christians who take 'son of God' to be literal.

From what you say, I assume that you do not believe Jesus to be the literal son of God, which is what Islam teaches. But there are Christians who believe he really is.

 

[Pegg]

I can't argue with you on how the Bible works nor how it should be interpreted. But I can tell you, although you already know, that there are Christians who take 'son of God' to be literal.

From what you say, I assume that you do not believe Jesus to be the literal son of God, which is what Islam teaches. But there are Christians who believe he really is.

let me just say this... YOU are a son of God!

We are all created by God, therefore we are all Gods children.

Now I certainly believe Jesus is also created by God and therefore he IS a son of God too. But what we JW's do not believe is that Jesus is God. That is the belief of most other christians... but i can assure you that not one of them believes that God literally gave birth in any literal way. God is not physical therefore cannot have sexual relations with a woman, nor can be 'give birth' so to speak.

He can only 'create' life. And that is what he has done with Christ Jesus, with Adam, with YOU and with me. We are all his children. I really think that some muslim scholars have taken this whole 'son of God' entirely the wrong way.

 

[Gharib]

let me just say this... YOU are a son of God!

We are all created by God, therefore we are all Gods children.

Now I certainly believe Jesus is also created by God and therefore he IS a son of God too. But what we JW's do not believe is that Jesus is God. That is the belief of most other christians... but i can assure you that not one of them believes that God literally gave birth in any literal way. God is not physical therefore cannot have sexual relations with a woman, nor can be 'give birth' so to speak.

He can only 'create' life. And that is what he has done with Christ Jesus, with Adam, with YOU and with me. We are all his children.

OK now I get the picture that you're painting.

From a Christian perspective that may be the case. From an Islamic perspective we never refer to anyone as the son of God (even in the sense that you say) we simply say creation/servants of God.

The one thing we have which might be similar I guess is the phrase 'Khalilullah' by which Abraham is referred to which means something like 'God's deputy on earth'. The same goes for the word 'Khalifah' it kind of means the same thing.

 

[Union jack]

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Pegg]

OK now I get the picture that you're painting.

From a Christian perspective that may be the case. From an Islamic perspective we never refer to anyone as the son of God (even in the sense that you say) we simply say creation/servants of God.

The one thing we have which might be similar I guess is the phrase 'Khalilullah' by which Abraham is referred to which means something like 'God's deputy on earth'. The same goes for the word 'Khalifah' it kind of means the same thing.

by the word of the prophet Isaiah, God calls Abraham his 'friend'
Isaiah 41:8 “But you, O Israel, are my servant, you, O Jacob, whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend"

The depth of Abrahams relationship with God deserves a thread on its own.

 

[Muffled]

Yes it is haram.

The Qur'an states numerous times that it is a great sin and forgery to associate Isa as the son of Allah.

112:1 Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
112:2 Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
112:3 He neither begets nor is born,
112:4 Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

I don't see any mention of sin in this passage. Also I beleive there is a double entendre to the statements that makes them both true and false.

 

[Muffled]

Yes.

The Qur'an is clear that Allah has no other to whom He is comparable, He is not born, does not have children, and any attempt associate partners with Him is considered shirk, which is the biggest sin one can commit in Islam.

Whenever i see this word I expect that the person has no evidence to back up his claim. It is like swearing by Heaven that it is true but that won't make it true.

Who considers it so? Men or Allah.

 

[Breathe]

Whenever i see this word I expect that the person has no evidence to back up his claim. It is like swearing by Heaven that it is true but that won't make it true.

Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not nor was begotten. (3) And there is none comparable unto Him. (4)

Surah 112.

Good enough?

Who considers it so? Men or Allah.

A combination of both; as far as I'm aware, the Qur'an does not explicitly state it is the biggest of sins, but it makes it clear it is a grave sin, it does this through repeating that God is one and should only be worshipped. A lot. So, shirk being the biggest of sins (or just one of the biggest) makes sense.

Within Islam, Jesus is not God. He is a great prophet, but not God. To think of him as God would be to associating a partner with God, thus, forbidden; haram.

Spoiler: A few quotes

"Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases, and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin." Surah 4:48

"And worship Allah and do not associate anything with Him." Surah 4:36

"Do not associate aught with Allah; most surely polytheism is a grievous inequity." Surah 31:13

 

[Union jack]

Then I was in error with the following interpretation:


"SWT This is the Acronym for "Subhanahu wa ta'ala" meaning "Allah is pure of having partners and He is exalted from having a son."
From: Glossary of Terms

 

[Muffled]

Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not nor was begotten. (3) And there is none comparable unto Him. (4)

Surah 112.

Good enough?

A combination of both; as far as I'm aware, the Qur'an does not explicitly state it is the biggest of sins, but it makes it clear it is a grave sin, it does this through repeating that God is one and should only be worshipped. A lot. So, shirk being the biggest of sins (or just one of the biggest) makes sense.

Within Islam, Jesus is not God. He is a great prophet, but not God. To think of him as God would be to associating a partner with God, thus, forbidden; haram.

Spoiler: A few quotes[COLOR=darkred

]"Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases, and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin." Surah 4:48[/COLOR]

"And worship Allah and do not associate anything with Him." Surah 4:36

"Do not associate aught with Allah; most surely polytheism is a grievous inequity." Surah 31:13

Yes. Thank you.

I believe you are correct because it states: "Ikhlas, or Purity of Faith." I suppose one could view impurity as sin but it definitely is not made clear since it states the positive rather than the negative.

Babies repeat ga ga a lot but that does not mean that ga ga is a sin.

I believe you mean within man's interpretation of the Qu'ran. I believe within Islam Jesus is God in the flesh. I believe anyone saying otherwise is not being Islamic.

I believe the idea that the divinity of Jesus makes Him a partner with God is pure blasphemy. I beleive God is one and therefore Jesus and God are one. If you believe they are two you are asccribing a partner to God and God doesn't like that view.

That is quite correct. It is basically blasphemy against The Holy Spirit which the Bible says can't be forgiven.

 

[Gharib]

I don't see any mention of sin in this passage. Also I beleive there is a double entendre to the statements that makes them both true and false.

"He neither begets nor is born"

That is the highlighted verse in my previous post. Since the Qur'an says that Allah doesn't beget, to say otherwise is false and makes one a non-believer.

Hence, it is haram (unlawful-forbidden) for a Muslim to say that Jesus is the begotten son of Allah because that's what the Qur'an says.

 

[Gharib]

Yes. Thank you.

I believe you are correct because it states: "Ikhlas, or Purity of Faith." I suppose one could view impurity as sin but it definitely is not made clear since it states the positive rather than the negative.

Babies repeat ga ga a lot but that does not mean that ga ga is a sin.

I believe you mean within man's interpretation of the Qu'ran. I believe within Islam Jesus is God in the flesh. I believe anyone saying otherwise is not being Islamic.

I believe the idea that the divinity of Jesus makes Him a partner with God is pure blasphemy. I beleive God is one and therefore Jesus and God are one. If you believe they are two you are asccribing a partner to God and God doesn't like that view.

That is quite correct. It is basically blasphemy against The Holy Spirit which the Bible says can't be forgiven.

Please stop making baseless claims about Islam, it's making my head hurt.

You really believe all that stuff?

 

[Breathe]

Babies repeat ga ga a lot but that does not mean that ga ga is a sin.

The problem is, babies do not have the authority of God (as the Qur'an claims), and the Qur'an states, a lot, "do not worship anyone other than Allah, it's a grave sin, do not worship anyone other than Allah, it's a grave sin.". A lot. One can gather, if the Qur'an was true, that it certainly is important to God.

I believe you mean within man's interpretation of the Qu'ran. I believe within Islam Jesus is God in the flesh. I believe anyone saying otherwise is not being Islamic.

I genuinely would like to see why you think so, especially since the Qur'an says Jesus is a man.

The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away! - Qur'an 5:75

And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I had ever said it, then Thou wouldst have known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden? - Qur'an 5:116

I believe the idea that the divinity of Jesus makes Him a partner with God is pure blasphemy. I beleive God is one and therefore Jesus and God are one. If you believe they are two you are asccribing a partner to God and God doesn't like that view.

Even if Jesus is merely a messenger?