Question on Tibetan sdhan

[Jainarayan]

What exactly entails sādhanā in Tibetan Buddhism? I specified Tibetan Buddhism because that's where my questions have been, but I don't know how it relates to the other schools. I get the impression that Tibetan sādhanā for a particular buddha or bodhisattva is very structured and most require empowerment, compared to Hindu sādhanā which is pretty fluid and individual (except when receiving diksha, I suppose). I've read that incorporating prayers to Chenrezig, Green Tārā, Manjushri, Praises to the Twenty-One Tārās and Medicine Buddha simply asking for blessings, into Hindu sādhanā do not require empowerment. But for education's sake I'm curious as to what a particular Tibetan sādhanā would entail.

 

[Kemble]

Check out The Berzin Archives if you haven't already.

 

[Jainarayan]

I do read there. I'll have to look deeper, thanks.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

I don't think that tantric sadhana in either Buddhist or Hindu traditions are very different and that Mr. Feuerstein has vastly overstated this; in both cases the sadhana is structed as per the tantras and their exegesis, which is available to the exclusion of oral and direct transmissions.

 

[Jainarayan]

Thanks again.

I don't think that tantric sadhana in either Buddhist or Hindu traditions are very different and that Mr. Feuerstein has vastly overstated this;

Is this to say he says they are very different, or they are not very different? I thought I read a passage were he said they are not very different but in The Path To Ecstacy he would focus on Hindu tantra. Unless I miss my guess, I think B.G. 3.9 "In this world all actions, unless they are done as an offering to God, become causes of bondage. Therefore, work for the sake of God without personal attachments." hints at what I call Tantra-Lite, weaving spirituality into daily life.

I haven't gotten more than 1/3 into the book, but so far I think it's basically an overview. Not that I'm looking for a how-to book anyway. I'm not going there; not now anyway, if ever. My simple understanding of tantra, which I don't think I want to take any further (I like my bhakti ) is using bhakti in everyday life. If part of that bhakti is to go the route of bodhisattva, then I think karma has ordained it. That's why I've come to realize that you and ratikala say Vaishnavism is not incompatible with Buddhism.

in both cases the sadhana is structed as per the tantras and their exegesis, which is available to the exclusion of oral and direct transmissions.

Again, sorry if I seem a bit dense... I am... my head is so stuffed from a cold and congestion I hardly know what planet I'm on (hell of a time to be discussing tantra, yes? ). There are structured formulae for performing these rites, that are passed down. [edit: Tantras - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ] So they are scriptures.

Tantras ("Looms" or "Weavings") refers to numerous and varied scriptures pertaining to any of several esoteric traditions rooted in Hindu and Buddhist philosophy. Although Buddhist and Hindu Tantra have many similarities from the outside, they do have some clear distinctions. ... The rest of this article deals with Hindu Tantra. Buddhist Tantra is described in the article on Vajrayana.

The Hindu Tantras total ninety-two scriptures, where sixty four are purely Abheda (literally "without differentiation", or monistic), known as the Bhairava Tantras or Kashmir Śaivite Tantras, eighteen are Bhedābheda (literally "with differentiation and without differentiation" or monistic cum dualistic), known as the Rudra Tantras), and ten are completely Bheda (literally "differentiated" or dualistic), known as the Śiva Tantras. The latter two (Rudra Tantras and Śiva Tantras) are used by the Śaiva Siddhāntins, and thus are sometimes referred to as Shaiva Siddhanta Tantras, or Śaiva Siddhānta Āgamas.

If I'm right then, all the bits and pieces one finds in books and on the internet are just bits and pieces that if one puts them together to make a sādhanā to White Tārā for example, the least that could happen is nothing, and the worst is that a d.i.y. sādhanā could have negative effects, maybe emotionally? Hence the need for guidance from a teacher.

If all this is correct, then I get it and it makes sense.

 

[twilightdance]

What exactly entails sādhanā in Tibetan Buddhism? I specified Tibetan Buddhism because that's where my questions have been, but I don't know how it relates to the other schools. I get the impression that Tibetan sādhanā for a particular buddha or bodhisattva is very structured and most require empowerment, compared to Hindu sādhanā which is pretty fluid and individual (except when receiving diksha, I suppose). I've read that incorporating prayers to Chenrezig, Green Tārā, Manjushri, Praises to the Twenty-One Tārās and Medicine Buddha simply asking for blessings, into Hindu sādhanā do not require empowerment. But for education's sake I'm curious as to what a particular Tibetan sādhanā would entail.

Its not about sadhana, but tibetan buddhism like any buddhism is maintained by strong monastic tradition and thus is much more structured and rigorous, while hinduism is all over the place.

If you start practicing hinduism as per a more orthodox tradition the structure and requirements [be they empowerments or something else] will not be so fluid - e.g vishistadvaita .

Also your motivation seems to appease and be close to buddhist deities along with hindu dieties. This might be ok and most start like that, but somewhere down the line you need to understand buddhist dieties are not without buddhism. Without understanding & appreciating buddhism, which at first sight stands in opposition to sanatana dharma particularly vaishnivism with which you seem to be attached, this may not be fruitful. Empowements, teachers and samaya is another thing, and i believe as many lama's say vajrayana is ineffective without refuge and bodhichitta. It is not easy to reconcile buddhist samaya with hinduism.

 

[twilightdance]

I don't think that tantric sadhana in either Buddhist or Hindu traditions are very different and that Mr. Feuerstein has vastly overstated this; in both cases the sadhana is structed as per the tantras and their exegesis, which is available to the exclusion of oral and direct transmissions.

I think it is wise to keep them separate as understanding proceeds in quite different manners. For some [including me] one system may complement the other [with the peril to be unsuccessful in both], but that does not justify unnecessary simplification and forced syncretism.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

I think it is wise to keep them separate as understanding proceeds in quite different manners. For some [including me] one system may complement the other [with the peril to be unsuccessful in both], but that does not justify unnecessary simplification and forced syncretism.

I think even a cursory reading of my posts on this matter here and elsewhere would not lend justification or even the idea of "simplifying" or mandating syncretism.

The very point of syncretism here is that these traditions are mutually revealing thru illustrative, complementary differences, while sharing an ultimately identical view or, perhaps better, viewless position.

Nonetheless, a syncretism between tantric traditions, whether internally - as in Buddhism's Rime - or between slightly more disparate traditions - is actually reflective of their root sameness.

You brought up the concept of 'samaya' which, though burdened with different meanings and other sandalwoods in the Hindu and Buddhist traditions, is a core concept in the tantras.

I suggest we take a mutual initiative to explore the samenesses and differences between Hindu & Budhist tantra.

I have an unfinished article for this DIR that I promised SageTree almost 3 months ago that is still collecting dusk on my harddrive, perhaps this will serve as part of the needed impetus to complete it.

In the brief scope of this post, the one thing I consider most valuable in terms of my own practice is the (more or less) reversal of esoteric gender roles. In the mainstream Hindu tantra, the basic idea is that the Male principle is consciousness, and the Female principle is Power or Display, sublated by an underlying unity [shiva shakti samarasa]. This is probably infuenced by early upanishad-era ideas about Brahman and Maya, and corresponding Samkhya/Yoga ideas Purusha & Prakriti coming into currency - and therefore exchange.

By contrast, having placed their anchor well past the range of hedged dualities one finds in the range of Hindu tantric traditions by means of the madhyamaka, the Vajrayanists assign the radiant void, the black womb of the tathagatas as Wisdom/Awareness, and the male principle instead as Upaya & its motivation, mahakaruna <and its nondual cognate, bodhichitta>.

Entertaining either view variously, or both at the same time, I have found far more fruitful, and in accordance with the principles of samaya and samarasa, like the nectar gained from churning the poison of identification, and have come to the conclusion that it's the doctrine-by-implication of both systems.

So, in discussing Hindu & Buddhist tantra, and the meaning of tantra itself, the underlying gnostic praxis that is independent of either culture or religious dressings, I I feel we should set the stage by discussing the following, perhaps in this order:

1. Kapalikas, Pasupatas & the origin of the twinned Siddha & Yogini lineages
2. The Siddha & Yogini streams metamorphosizing variously into Kaula, Natha & Sahaja approaches (all closely related) as well as the Vajrayana (with analogues to the other 3, especially Sahaja).
3. Individual luminaries shared by both, including both historical figures and deities, along with their iconographies, ars memoria & symbolic syntax. Historical figures would number among the 84 Mahasiddhas, I'd like to pick out Saraha for discussion in particular.
4. Later sectarian developments and clashes, attempts of one system to subvert or convert others, and how this is reflected thru deity yoga systems & the mythologies of subjugation.

 

[twilightdance]

Yes this will be a very fruitful exercise to try for any sincere student of tantra. Will look forward to your posts and try to provide some contribution.

You have put out the core matter out by stating "having placed their anchor well past the range of hedged dualities one finds in the range of Hindu tantric traditions by means of the madhyamaka". With all sophistry of Abhinavagupta's exegesis, I had to accept that the buddhist view is much more simple yet sophisticated, almost brilliant and free from the erroneous duality assumed in the hindu systems. Ulimately abhinava's trika or later kaula tantra hold the supreme void of non being to be final and ultimate view of reality, but proceeding through conceptualized states of impure and pure i-consciousness. So it is basically not the tantra but respectively the 'hindu' and 'buddhist' views embedded in them that cause the tension. And reason for sticking to both forms of tantra is none of the views [like any view] seems to give completeness and often seems unpractical and artificial at first glance [bodhichitta].

Entertaining both views at different times may the best approach and also stop getting attached to a particular view which is just a conception.
"I read the books of all religions and practice all at the right moment. The life is my teacher and my inner wisdom is my guide." Drukpa Kinley. But one needs to know what one is getting into.

Agree gender role reversal is an interesting point of difference in this regard. But there are also other mundane differences in practice like generation stage followed by completion stage. The biggest thing going for Vajrayana is that the yogic aspects which got artificially separated in hindu tantras as hatha yoga of nathas is integrated into tantra in a complete fashion. Tibetans treat mantra practice very lightly while holding highest secrecy for some hatha yoga like exercises. While hindu hatha yoga is so free and undervalued that it has basically spawned another consumer industry while supreme secrecy around mantra recitation.

 

[Jainarayan]

Thanks.

Also your motivation seems to appease and be close to buddhist deities along with hindu dieties. This might be ok and most start like that, but somewhere down the line you need to understand buddhist dieties are not without buddhism. Without understanding & appreciating buddhism, which at first sight stands in opposition to sanatana dharma particularly vaishnivism with which you seem to be attached, this may not be fruitful. Empowements, teachers and samaya is another thing, and i believe as many lama's say vajrayana is ineffective without refuge and bodhichitta. It is not easy to reconcile buddhist samaya with hinduism.

Actually it's driven by compassion and bodhicitta as I understand bodhicitta (Wiki may not be the best source). Again, Wiki may not be the best source for a description of samaya but I don't think elements of this description of it are incompatible at all with Hinduism. Some may not apply, but I don't think any are contradictory. On the face of it, to deliberately forego or delay moksha in order to be reborn to help other sentient beings contradicts Hinduism, but it may very well be my dharma.

 

[Jainarayan]

Btw, this indirectly answers my original question http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empowerment_(Vajrayana)

 

[twilightdance]

If bodhichitta is your motivation then getting enlightened is of primary importance and d.i.y vajrayana, difference between sadhana in vajrayana and this confusion around hindu wordly dieties wud not arise.

Refuge in 3 jewels and not worshipping wordly dieties does pose problem to be a serious hindu and vajarayana practioner at the same time.

 

[Jainarayan]

But if one believes that the Buddha is Vishnu and that Vishnu is Brahman, and Brahman is All... then it all comes together in my small (perhaps naive ) mind.

 

[twilightdance]

But if one believes that the Buddha is Vishnu and that Vishnu is Brahman, and Brahman is All... then it all comes together in my small (perhaps naive ) mind.

Then you are only following vaishnavism. Brahman as understood in vedanta is not shunyata and buddha is certainly not vishnu. Not understanding or appreciating shunyata or equating it to brahman is breaking a core samaya both suta & tantra.

This not sectarian argumentation on superiority of forms, but has to do with the core understanding of buddhism and also buddhist tantras which is non duality. One can certainly be buddhist and hindu, but not through brahman is vishnu is buddha route. imo. you can ask a qualified lama.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Then you are only following vaishnavism. Brahman as understood in vedanta is not shunyata and buddha is certainly not vishnu. Not understanding or appreciating shunyata or equating it to brahman is breaking a core samaya both suta & tantra.

This not sectarian argumentation on superiority of forms, but has to do with the core understanding of buddhism and also buddhist tantras which is non duality. One can certainly be buddhist and hindu, but not through brahman is vishnu is buddha route. imo. you can ask a qualified lama.

Why is this breaking samaya?

 

[Jainarayan]

Then you are only following vaishnavism. Brahman as understood in vedanta is not shunyata and buddha is certainly not vishnu. Not understanding or appreciating shunyata or equating it to brahman is breaking a core samaya both suta & tantra.

I'm one of those who believes Vishnu took birth as Gautama Buddha, &#346;&#257;kyamuni.

&#346;&#363;nyat&#257; is not emptiness as in 'nothingness' or non-existence. It is the absence of existence of something in and of itself; something has no inherent existence.

&#346;&#363;nyat&#257; refers to the absence of inherent existence in all phenomena, and it is complementary to the Buddhist concepts of not-self (P&#257;li: anatta, Sanskrit: an&#257;tman)[note 1] and dependent origination.

The exact definition of emptiness varies from one Buddhist tradition to another.

Śūnyatā - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Buddhism, the term anatt&#257; (P&#257;li) or an&#257;tman (Sanskrit: &#2309;&#2344;&#2366;&#2340;&#2381;&#2350;&#2344;&#2381 refers to the notion of "not-self" or the illusion of "self". In the early texts, the Buddha commonly uses the word in the context of teaching that all things perceived by the senses (including the mental sense) are not really "I" or "mine", and for this reason one should not cling to them.

Anatta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The emphasis is mine.

HHDL says:

According to the theory of emptiness, any belief in an objective reality grounded in the assumption of intrinsic, independent existence is simply untenable.

All things and events, whether ‘material’, mental or even abstract concepts like time, are devoid of objective, independent existence [...] [T]hings and events are 'empty' in that they can never possess any immutable essence, intrinsic reality or absolute ‘being’ that affords independence.[51]
​

Śūnyatā - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's no contradiction in saying that nothing has inherent existence and exists in and of itself and all is Brahman. What we see does not exist but of Brahman.

 

[Jainarayan]

Not understanding or appreciating shunyata or equating it to brahman is breaking a core samaya both suta & tantra.

Why is this breaking samaya?

Given the definition of shunyata above, I don't see how it's breaking samaya either. It doesn't violate precept #9 or #11 of the root downfalls list.

Samaya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. Physically harming or slandering the teacher from whom one received the abhi&#7779;eka - The following conditions must be present for the samaya to be broken: one must be fully aware of one's actions and intend them, be aware that they will displease the teacher, and fail to regret them. With intention but no follow-through, only a breach is committed. Further, the severity of the breach is considered small, average or great depending on whether or not the student has received abhi&#7779;eka, explanations and pith instructions—if just the former it is small, if the first two it is average, and if all three it is great.
2. Opposing the words of the buddhas - Denigrating Buddhist teachings.
3. Strong negative emotions towards one’s vajra brothers and sisters - Becoming strongly hostile towards men and women who have received abhi&#7779;eka from the same teachers as oneself
4. Abandoning loving kindness and compassion for sentient beings
5. Abandoning the bodhichitta in aspiration or application
6. Criticizing other Buddhist traditions
7. Revealing secrets to those who are unworthy "If one describes the meaning of great bliss as taught in Vajrayana to individuals who do not possess the required educational background, they might misunderstand and abuse these teachings. "
8. Mistreating one’s body "The human body is the support for dharma practice, the basis upon which realization of the two buddhakayas is attained. With respect to Vajrayana the human body is considered to be an important instrument on the path. Therefore exposing the body to extreme conditions such as whipping, burning or destroying it by suicide, contributes to the breaking of the samaya."[6]
9. Abandoning emptiness
10. Keeping bad company Associating with samaya corrupters
11. Failing to reflect on emptiness
12. Upsetting those who have faith in the teachings
13. Failing to observe the samaya commitments "During specific occasions the Vajrayana master, who should be a highly qualified teacher, will require that the student carries out certain practices such as secretly eating the 5 types of meat, drinking the 5 kinds of nectar and dancing nakedly. This is requested in order to test whether or not conventional concepts are relinquished. If, due to moral tendencies, one hesitates or refrains from carrying out these rituals, this contributes to the breaking of the samaya."[7]
14. Denigrating women "Within Vajrayana women are considered to be the embodiment of wisdom. Regarding women as inferior or abusing them as witnessed in certain cultures, contributes to the breaking of the samaya."[8]

 

[Shuddhasattva]

It should be noted samaya is a more subtle concept than rote vows, as shunya is more subtle than conceptualized nihilisms (and "HH"DL is a very pedestrian nihilist (asat prasangika)).

Neither samaya nor shunya are at all opposed to monistic understandings of Vishnu, whose name at its very root refers to emptiness itself and whose worship commissions, my means of the samaya, root unification.

 

[Jainarayan]

Yes of course, thanks for pointing that out. Sometimes we forget. One must always "look behind the scenes".

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Supreme vow revealing all facets
Perfect rainbow body void expanse
Vaseborn retainers gather essential beinghood
Flash of light, empty sky full of clouds like banners
Void praises resounding all keys avowed
Diamond, adamantine riding void winds aflame
Blazing scepter traversing lotus fields
Blessed friend dwelling where all hearts knot
Arriving home before departure, dancing sky clad
Non-apprehending the unreality of non-being
Apprehending all beings as reality
Speaking in upward curled tongues
Nourished by the flow of bliss nectar
Truth naked fully worshiping all mother beings
Deathly essence firing vital flow moondrunk truthwine wisdom
Confessing inwardly in secret father communion
All errant thoughts willing sacrifices on mind&#8217;s altar by knife of non-reproduction
Forever erasing discursive patterns in the nonless
The treasurehouse is now opened, you locks and keys and belly buttons
Hips, thighs, lustful minds; traceless footsteps shedding shining paths
Take what you will, you bandits, you peacemakers, strangled umbilicals
Cut off from all that what and all that will be by the shadow of now -
Little time left twisted men, why protect what is not truly warded?
Adapt or die, here there are tools of transformation, for better or worse
So commission yourselves all ye who enter this ward
The time of the wheel turning is come again
Even those whose burning blades perceive no enemies
Illuminating the traceless path for all beings undiscriminating
Should listen for the clarion call setting clarity into action
Placing the ever turning wheels of the universal chariot
Once more down to the grounds of the path
Those who would rob the divine weapons, wield clear light
Even those who would rape the universal mothers become suckled by bliss
Solitary wisdom being conquering all Maras and demonic passions
By refusing to perceive them as somehow existing!
Incorporating into rainbow body the dissolution of all things
Swirling in the primordial waters of procreation
Darkling traceless places, radiant black wombs
Refusing not even the Maras the final refuge of non-being, the great embrace
Granted instantaneously to all beings at all times by the universal void!
You dwell adream with all beings that they may awake with you! As you!
Dwelling forever perfected in the bliss of own mystery
All abysses steplessly traversed, sunder all the be-bonded; rain medicine!
You burdened with gilded mirrors, find mirror in murkmind
Mirror&#8217;s reflection looked for brings loss, discovered brings gain
Remembered is to hear silence
From the swamp water rises the lotus
From the ashes of all beloved beings
Rises the birthless fire
Son wisdom is mother wisdom
Held in the embrace of the vows
All gateways to the void flood open
In the torrent of the universal desire
Purified of all selfish cravings
Ash burnt out by its own fire
Samaya kevalya
The black hat is the lineage crown
In this lineage as its holders and masters
Are all beings as buddhas!
This is the net of dakinis
Their very hair
From which the crown is woven
Black hatted lama laughing loud
The mind is the guru&#8217;s throne
And the body is the seat of worship [<up>asana]
Speech is diamond muttering and laughing oblation
The vajra is the sky dancer&#8217;s station
And the desireless pleasure is yidam
The black roof of the monastery
Shelters all beings beneath its midnight branches
The dark watered lake is profound and inner
The radiant assembly is seated in the black hall
Showing their original faces, the color of the void
Black hatted lamas reborn everywhere at all times
Black reality protectors coiled up at the pivot of everything
Black dakinis bearing in their dark wombs all tathagatas
The 9 black omens of Drukpa Kunley
Are reborn the scepter of turning
Piercing the wheels of dharmas
Burning through the spokes of prana
Breathing mind through the spine of time