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Question for the Young Earth crowd

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
Very simple discussion topic. One which I have never heard a satisfactory answer to.

If the Earth is 4500 or so years old, as I have been told by Young Earth supporters, then what about dinosaurs?

This question can be expanded to a request for explanation of many other natural and man made phenomena which have been scientifically proven to be older than 4500 years of age, but, for the time being, can someone from the Yound Earth crowd explain their position on dinosaurs?

Thanks for playing along,

B.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
I'm not necessarily part of the Young Earth crowd, but I believe that God created the Earth from matter that already existed (it wasn't made out of thin air). If that's the case, then dinosaurs and much more may be dated far past the 4,500 years or so as they already existed before the creation.
 

Fire Empire

Member
nutshell said:
I'm not necessarily part of the Young Earth crowd, but I believe that God created the Earth from matter that already existed (it wasn't made out of thin air). If that's the case, then dinosaurs and much more may be dated far past the 4,500 years or so as they already existed before the creation.
We're confused on this point. Are you saying that god created the earth out of dinosaurs? Or that he created dinosaurs and then created the earth?
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
I'm saying that God took matter that already existed and created this Earth. I don't know if he is the creator of that which already existed or not.
 

Fatmop

Active Member
Then where would this matter have come from? It seems to me that a god with the skill set required to create the entire Earth could just as easily have created everything else.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
I believe God has to follow the laws of science. If that's true, then he can't make something out of nothing.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
nutshell said:
I believe God has to follow the laws of science. If that's true, then he can't make something out of nothing.
Why do you call this chap God?
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Because he created me. He is my Father and everything I know and have is because of Him. Regardless of what any other "gods" have done, He is the one that deserves my worship because he is the one I owe everything to.
 

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
Hmm, unless this debate turns around pretty quickly, it looks like it is heading in the same direction as all the live discussions I have ever had on the subject. Invariably when this relatively simple question is posed to a devout Christian, he either ignores the subject completely (as has happened to this thread) or replies with the old saw of "the Lord works in mysterious ways" or something to that effect.

Anyone care to venture a serious reply to the question of dinosaraurs and other phenomena which predate the "young earth" theories of a world which is 4500 to 6000 years old? Anyone want to explain how Genesis mentions Adam and Eve, and from a gene pool of 2 people we have somehow in less than 6 millenia come up with all the genetic and ethnic diversity seen on this planet? In short, why are there different races if the earth is only 4500 to 6000 years old when geneticists agree it takes 20,000 years of environmental factors to turn one race to another?

Hoping that by expanding the question, I might get some legitimate replies to my inquiry.

B.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Anyone care to venture a serious reply to the question of dinosaraurs and other phenomena which predate the "young earth" theories of a world which is 4500 to 6000 years old?
This is the way I look at it: Adam and Eve trangressed at 6000bc. Who knows how long they were in the Garden of Eden before that, or what all the other animals were doing outside of the garden. The could have been in there for millions of years, while animals were changing etc, for how much is really matters.
MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Anyone want to explain how Genesis mentions Adam and Eve, and from a gene pool of 2 people we have somehow in less than 6 millenia come up with all the genetic and ethnic diversity seen on this planet?
Because they were too alike, that they were too powerufl, and they almost built a tower to heaven. So god confused their languages, and probably at this time made them look different.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Hmm, unless this debate turns around pretty quickly, it looks like it is heading in the same direction as all the live discussions I have ever had on the subject. Invariably when this relatively simple question is posed to a devout Christian, he either ignores the subject completely (as has happened to this thread) or replies with the old saw of "the Lord works in mysterious ways" or something to that effect.

Anyone care to venture a serious reply to the question of dinosaraurs and other phenomena which predate the "young earth" theories of a world which is 4500 to 6000 years old? Anyone want to explain how Genesis mentions Adam and Eve, and from a gene pool of 2 people we have somehow in less than 6 millenia come up with all the genetic and ethnic diversity seen on this planet? In short, why are there different races if the earth is only 4500 to 6000 years old when geneticists agree it takes 20,000 years of environmental factors to turn one race to another?

Hoping that by expanding the question, I might get some legitimate replies to my inquiry.

B.
I suggest you read my first post again as I did give you a legitamate answer to the original question you posed.
 

Steve

Active Member
MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Very simple discussion topic. One which I have never heard a satisfactory answer to.
If the Earth is 4500 or so years old, as I have been told by Young Earth supporters, then what about dinosaurs?
This question can be expanded to a request for explanation of many other natural and man made phenomena which have been scientifically proven to be older than 4500 years of age, but, for the time being, can someone from the Yound Earth crowd explain their position on dinosaurs?
Hi MdmSzdWhtGuy,
There is no problem with dinosaurs and a young age earth, there is reason to belive dinosaurs lived with man, the bible even describes one in Job 40 (http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i2/behemoth.asp discusses this).
Some links regarding evidence that better supports recent existance of dinosaurs if you really are interested.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/0325Dino_tissue.asp
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dinosaurs.asp





nutshell said:
I'm not necessarily part of the Young Earth crowd, but I believe that God created the Earth from matter that already existed (it wasn't made out of thin air). If that's the case, then dinosaurs and much more may be dated far past the 4,500 years or so as they already existed before the creation.
So you dont belive God can create matter from nothing, but you belive that matter can create itself from nothing? Does that mean you dont belive God made dinosaurs? and if he didnt make dinosaurs then does that mean you dont belive he made the other animals? If thats the case does that mean you think God just found earth fully populated with animals and then decided he would make Mankind and then lead them to belive he created the other living things aswell even though he really only found them like that?

nutshell said:
I believe God has to follow the laws of science. If that's true, then he can't make something out of nothing.
So your God isnt supernatural with power over his creation, he cant perform miracles. He didnt really turn water into wine, heal the lame, be born of a virgin, raise from the dead, multiply bread and fish, drive out demons, make the blind see etc. What kind of god do you serve?
Certainly not the one described in the Bible.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
There is no problem with dinosaurs and a young age earth, there is reason to belive dinosaurs lived with man, the bible even describes one in Job 40 (http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i2/behemoth.asp discusses this).
I'm curious why you feel that dinosaurs and modern animals (for example: People) never show up in the same place in the geologic record.

So you dont belive God can create matter from nothing, but you belive that matter can create itself from nothing?
So you don't believe matter can have simply already existed; but you believe God can have already existed?
 

Fatmop

Active Member
Steve, you do realize that every time you link AIG, I can link Talk Origins right back, don't you? (P.S. - you've never actually responded adequately to any of the TO scientific arguments, either. If you really have a foolproof theory on this one, feel free to share.)
That dinosaurs lived together with man:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH710.html
That "Behemoth" was a dinosaur:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH711.html
And by the way, the scientific community has not regarded the find of the spongy dinosaur marrow material to be proof that dinosaurs and man coexisted. If any respectable scientist thought that at all, there would have been complete uproar in the scientific community. (Hint: this fossil was preserved so well that it remained 'spongy' for millions of years. Nothing about that agrees with any YEC claims. The "reference" link at the bottom points to an msnbc article that immediately states in the headline "70 MILLION YEAR OLD FOSSIL")
 

cmotdibbler

Member
Speaking of AiG...

I had the "privilege" to attend an AIG seminar just yesterday, specifically Carl Kerby's talk called "Trusting the Boatman". About half the talk was essentially a regular pastor's sermon. The middle section dealt with how folded rock layers in the Grand Canyon prove a young earth. It really didn't get into specifics. What really got me was that he bragged about how education was *not* stressed in his home and how he wasn't educated in these fields.

I feel intellectually unclean after attending this, like I've been mind-raped. Unfortunately there was no question/answer period and I was not willing to sit through the talk about racism in the Bible.
 

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
Aqualung said:
This is the way I look at it: Adam and Eve trangressed at 6000bc. Who knows how long they were in the Garden of Eden before that, or what all the other animals were doing outside of the garden. The could have been in there for millions of years, while animals were changing etc, for how much is really matters.
Because they were too alike, that they were too powerufl, and they almost built a tower to heaven. So god confused their languages, and probably at this time made them look different.
OK, I did not have time to properly deal with your response earlier when I simply thanked you for your response, now I have a bit more time, and I will take a stab at a response.

Re: your first point that Adam and Eve transgressed at 6000 b.c., this seems to indicate that you are a proponent of the Pre-Adamic Man theory. Which as I understand it states that there were various mud-peoples existing from time immemorial on Earth, and that God came along and created Adam and Eve, which are either the first Jews, or the first Caucasians, depending upon who I have heard tell it.

Frankly, Pre-Adamic man theory does a better job of meshing Biblical accounts with scientific reality, than about any other faith based theory I have heard. I have a strong feeling that a non "political-correctness" look at human genetics through DNA research could go a long ways to either bolster or dissipate this theory.

Re: the mixing up of languages and races during the time of the Tower of Babel, that is also an interesting theory, but, to accept your theory that God changed up the races at that time presents a couple of problems.

First off, you have to accept that there is something around (God) who can break all the known laws of physics and genetics, which is, to put it mildly, a stretch.

Secondly, if God was threatened by the building of the Tower, as it might reach to Heaven, then that would imply that Heaven is "up there" some where. Obviously the people of the time of the Tower of Babel, had no way of climbing any higher than they could build. Their construction materials would have been wood. Wooden structures have never been built that even approach 1,000 feet in height. Even with modern engineering and materials, modern humans cannot build a building that comes even moderately close to a mile high. I find it very hard to imagine God being concerned about a wooden structure, which likely could not have been over a couple hundred feet tall.

Since that time modern humans have travelled much higher than ancient man could even imagine possible, and there have been no modern instances of God putting the kibash on humans going higher and higher into and even out of, the atmosphere.

Third, God establishing different languages, races, etc. . . at the time of the Tower of Babel ignores the genetic problem of Adam and Eve and their offspring running into inbreeding problems. I have presumed in section one of this that you would resort to a Pre-Adamic Man theory to explain this discrepancy, if this is not the case, I am highly interested in how section one and 3 are merged.

I guess that is enough for now, happy debating.

B.
 

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
cmotdibbler said:
Speaking of AiG...

What really got me was that he bragged about how education was *not* stressed in his home and how he wasn't educated in these fields.

I feel intellectually unclean after attending this, like I've been mind-raped. QUOTE]

You are dealing with the same frustrating experience I have had over the years when dealing with this subject, which is why I brought it up here, hoping that with this smarter than average crowd we might get some good debate going on the subject. Kind of drives you nuts when a person who remains purposefully ignorant brags about how "book learning" wasn't stressed or shouldn't be stressed, and we should just take the Bible at face value.

Woe be unto you when you attempt to seriously debate with such an individual. Even when you point to discrepencies in the Bible, you can't make any headway. Its a shame they didn't have a Q and A session, would have loved to hear the responses.

B.
 

MdmSzdWhtGuy

Well-Known Member
Steve said:
Hi MdmSzdWhtGuy,
There is no problem with dinosaurs and a young age earth, there is reason to belive dinosaurs lived with man, the bible even describes one in Job 40 (http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i2/behemoth.asp discusses this).
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dinosaurs.asp

Steve, you are ignoring I suppose, as an inconvenience, the 65 million years or so after the dinosaurs died out,and before humans came on the scene? Pointing to a verse in Job, which, was 1. Handwritten by a man, 2. about 3-4 thousand years ago, and 3. Which has been translated several times over since the original writing, is hardly convincing evidence that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.

Frankly there is more written evidence that humans and Dragons co-existed than there is for humans and dinosaurs co-existing. And I haven't heard to many people lately claiming that Dragons really exist, or existed. Why is it that you so easily brush aside fairy tales, Norse Mythology, or Greek Mythology, but cling so dearly to stories written in the Bible which have no more basis in known fact than the afore mentioned fairy tales and Mythology?

B.
 
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