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Question for Christians

Ba'al

Active Member
While the god of the OT sure seems to take the sadism crown, doesn't the Quran contain it's fair share too? .

No, Allah doesn't encourage or even allow genocide on thier enemies. There are a few places in the Quran where it says to slay the enemy but it's referring to certain events and time periods in which that part of the Quran was revealed, where the muslims were being terrorized and persecuted.

Aren't amputation, crucification, immuring, flogging, etc. all acceptable punishments detailed in the Quran?

Yes, after fair trial and if convicted the offender can get hands cut off for stealing or the death penalty for rape and murder.

How about descriptions of "Judgment Day"... people swallowed by boiling oceans, devoured by wild beasts, etc.?.

After judgement, thr Quran speaks of a type of hell called the fire, where one will burn forever.

I admit that I haven't looked into it in depth... Islams treatment of women as described by Ayaan Hirsi Ali is enough for me to reach my conclusion.

Between the Old and New Testaments and the Quran, the Quran gives the MOST rights to women. Even though it might not be practiced properly in Islamic countries, I can only say what the Quran says.
 
Try reading the OT as a possible example of how to resolve a problem in your life -eg - Forgifeness and reconciling - The story of Joseph and his brothers.
- Hatred - Look at the consequences of this (killing of innocents)
- creation of a religion - the traps, hatred and war.
- seeking truth - look at the inner fight of some of the prophets, king David.
- feeling lost in the dessert of doubt and unbelieve - Israels 40 years
- Questions - what is my destiny - look at the way they conquered the enemy and claim the land ( spiritualise it and look for the "enemy" in your own soul and conquer your "promised land" - your soul and inner being. )

There is lots more, but you must apply it to your own life and search. You will learn a right way of doing things and be shown the consequences of wrong choices - or - You can read it as a story of one people's history and get fed-up with it all and become an athiest or whatever.

It is a book of hidden knowledge
It is a book that brings division
It is a book that you hate or love.
It is a book with purpose.

I gotcha. Yes a very insightful approach.
Thank you for sharing that.
 

sonofskeptish

It is what it is
Even though it might not be practiced properly in Islamic countries, I can only say what the Quran says.

Who decides the correct enterpretation of what the Quran (or any other holy book) says? What it is to "properly" practice Islam or any other religion? For every person claiming their god represents "peace, love, respect for women/children, etc.", there is another using the same texts to kill/commit acts of violence, chant "death to infidels", force female/infant genital mutilation, etc.

You cannot ignore the fact that while the outcome is (thankfully) different, there is no difference when it comes to these groups suspensing rational thought and critical thinking on matters of god. The only difference is the acts (either good or bad) they justify with their delusion.
 

Ba'al

Active Member
Who decides the correct enterpretation of what the Quran (or any other holy book) says? What it is to "properly" practice Islam or any other religion?

If you read the Quran you would understand what I'm about to say. The Quran is not like the bible. It doesn't have a thousand different interpretations. It's to be read literally and it's easy to read and understand. If a country doesn't practice it means they don't do what the Quran says to do. It's not a matter of interpretation.
 

sonofskeptish

It is what it is
If you read the Quran you would understand what I'm about to say. The Quran is not like the bible. It doesn't have a thousand different interpretations. It's to be read literally and it's easy to read and understand. If a country doesn't practice it means they don't do what the Quran says to do. It's not a matter of interpretation.

To use an extreme example, do you interpret what the Quran "says to do" differently than Bin Laden?
 

sonofskeptish

It is what it is
If you read the Quran you would understand what I'm about to say. The Quran is not like the bible. It doesn't have a thousand different interpretations. It's to be read literally and it's easy to read and understand. If a country doesn't practice it means they don't do what the Quran says to do. It's not a matter of interpretation.

If this doesn't say interpretation, not sure what would...

"Arabic is a language whose words can have multiple, sometimes contradictory, meanings, so how one chooses to render a particular word from Arabic to English has a lot to do with one's biases or prejudice. Take the following example from Sura 4:34, which has long been interpreted as allowing husbands to beat their wives: "As for those women who might rebel against you, admonish them, abandon them in their beds, and strike them (adribuhunna)." The problem, as a number of female Quranic scholars have noted, is that adribuhunna can also mean "turn away from them." It can even mean "have sexual intercourse with them." Obviously, which definition the translator chooses will be colored by whatever his or her preconceived notions are about a husband's authority."

from www.islamicity.com
 

Ba'al

Active Member
If this doesn't say interpretation, not sure what would...

"Arabic is a language whose words can have multiple, sometimes contradictory, meanings, so how one chooses to render a particular word from Arabic to English has a lot to do with one's biases or prejudice.

No, it's not interpretation, it's translation. That is why the Quran is supposed to be read in Arabic, otherwise you can end up with just that problem.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There is little evidence the Canaanites actually practiced child sacrifice. Archeology shows the Canaanite culture was almost indistinguishable from that of the Israelites. Mark Smith in "The Early History of God: Yahweh and Other Deities of Ancient Israel" states "Despite the long regnant model that the Canaanites and Israelites were people of fundamentally different culture, archaeological data now casts doubt on this view. The material culture of the region exhibits numerous common points between Israelites and Canaanites in the Iron I period (ca. 1200–1000 BC). The record would suggest that the Israelite culture largely overlapped with and derived from Canaanite culture. "

If you want to talk about the killing of children and other genocide though, look no further than:

Deuteronomy (2:34) "So we captured all his cities at that time and utterly destroyed the men, women and children of every city. We left no survivor."

Deuteronomy (7:2) "and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy."

Joshua (6:21) "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and donkey, with the edge of the sword."

Practices of the Canaanites to be detested by Israel were: spiritism with its seances, casting of spells, fortune-telling (De 18:9-12), offering children up in fire to their gods (De 12:31; Jer 32:35; 2Ki 16:3), incest, sodomy, and bestiality. (Le 18:6, 22-30; 20:13) Doubtless the morally repugnant practice of sodomy was the reason for the severity of the rule declaring the wearing of apparel of the opposite sex to be “detestable.” (De 22:5) The Canaanites also practiced “sacred” prostitution by male and female temple prostitutes, but Jehovah prohibited the bringing of “the hire of a harlot or the price of a dog” into his house, “because they are something detestable.”—De 23:17, 18; 1Ki 14:24.
Because the Israelites did not completely wipe out the inhabitants of Canaan, in time they themselves began to engage in the filthy practices of the Canaanites.
The Bible Handbook, by Henry H. Halley, notes that at Megiddo, archaeologists found the ruins of a temple of Ashtoreth, goddess-wife of Baal. He writes: “Just a few steps from this temple was a cemetery, where many jars were found, containing remains of infants who had been sacrificed in this temple . . . Prophets of Baal and Ashtoreth were official murderers of little children.” “Another horrible practice was [what] they called ‘foundation sacrifices.’ When a house was to be built, a child would be sacrificed, and its body built into the wall.”
20 Halley comments: “The worship of Baal, Ashtoreth, and other Canaanite gods consisted in the most extravagant orgies; their temples were centers of vice. . . . Canaanites worshiped, by immoral indulgence, . . . and then, by murdering their first-born children, as a sacrifice to these same gods. It seems that, in large measure, the land of Canaan had become a sort of Sodom and Gomorrah on a national scale. . . . Did a civilization of such abominable filth and brutality have any right longer to exist? . . . Archaeologists who dig in the ruins of Canaanite cities wonder that God did not destroy them sooner than He did.”—Compare 1 Kings 21:25, 26.​
 

Ba'al

Active Member
Human sacrifice including children was actually common amongst many early tribes everywhere. The practice of putting children underneath a wall or house was to protect the family from evil spirits. What I'm saying is, it wasn't anymore practiced there than in other areas of the earth.

Did a civilization of such abominable filth and brutality have any right longer to exist?

One can argue that of many cultures on Earth now. For example, the millions of people America has killed in the past few decades. Does this mean we should eliminate an entire race or culture of Americans? Should we have killed every single German or Japanese after WW2?
 

sonofskeptish

It is what it is
No, it's not interpretation, it's translation. That is why the Quran is supposed to be read in Arabic, otherwise you can end up with just that problem.

You ignored (or perhaps overlooked) my other post... "To use an extreme example, do you interpret what the Quran "says to do" differently than Bin Laden?"
 

Ba'al

Active Member
The Quran says one can use force against another in defense. Bin Laden said he planned 911 in retribution of the Isaeli/US attack in Lebanon which killed thousands of innocent civilians. I don't want to get drawn into a political debate here. My posts were answering questions about the Quran for informative purposes only. My thoughts on whether 911 it was justified is irrelevant.
 

sonofskeptish

It is what it is
The Quran says one can use force against another in defense. Bin Laden said he planned 911 in retribution of the Isaeli/US attack in Lebanon which killed thousands of innocent civilians. I don't want to get drawn into a political debate here. My posts were answering questions about the Quran for informative purposes only. My thoughts on whether 911 it was justified is irrelevant.

But he justified his actions as inline with what the Quran says is acceptable. Either you agree with him that 911 is inline with what the Quran says is acceptable (supporting your claim the Quran is not open to enterpretation) or you don't agree with him (confirming the Quran is open to enterpretation).

You can't have your cake and eat it too... was 911 justified or can the Quran be interpreted differently by different individuals?
 

Ba'al

Active Member
Either you agree with him that 911 is inline with what the Quran says is acceptable (supporting your claim the Quran is not open to enterpretation) or you don't agree with him (confirming the Quran is open to enterpretation).
You can't have your cake and eat it too... was 911 justified or can the Quran be interpreted differently by different individuals?

I don't think it's about the interpretation of the Quran. It would be what you would classify as defense. Americans wouldn't think it's defense whereas the Middle East probably would. It's a political stance. The Quran doesn't list all scenerios but it does say to make fair judgement and to have mercy. That's all I'll say about that. What I will add is that the majority of problems people have with the bible like incest, genocide, unscientific statements, inequality, contradictions, interpretations, and translations you will have a hard time finding in the Quran. People try to do it but they take statements out of context to do it. If you question that I'm sure there are already threads about it.
 

Ba'al

Active Member
Those are terrible images in that video. The Quran does NOT encourage that behaviour at all. Those are god awful acts that confirm my point there is a difference between what the Quran says and what some people actually do. It's like blaming the bible for George Bush killing millions. That video is a one sided propaganda film produced by David Horowitz. If you Wiki his name it tells you he is a conservative anti-islam racist. That alone should tell you how much truth there is to that video. Since that video was mainly about the treatment of women here's a few you should watch that will tell you what the Quran says. If you want to continue this discussion we should move it to an appropriate thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJdcJiYHNe4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1OXajo63h8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCwfFepY4Xc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-R43UzH0NU
 

sonofskeptish

It is what it is
Those are terrible images in that video. The Quran does NOT encourage that behaviour at all. Those are god awful acts that confirm my point there is a difference between what the Quran says and what some people actually do. It's like blaming the bible for George Bush killing millions. That video is a one sided propaganda film produced by David Horowitz. If you Wiki his name it tells you he is a conservative anti-islam racist. That alone should tell you how much truth there is to that video. Since that video was mainly about the treatment of women here's a few you should watch that will tell you what the Quran says. If you want to continue this discussion we should move it to an appropriate thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJdcJiYHNe4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1OXajo63h8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCwfFepY4Xc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-R43UzH0NU

For every positive link you post, I can find a negative one. My whole point is NOT to paint the Quran in a bad light, but rather to make the point that different people will used their enterpretations of whatever holy book (including the Quran) to do good and evil acts, and justify their acts via these enterpretations. YOUR the one that claims there is no enterpretation involved with respects to the Quran. I say baloney. I'll agree to your request to resume discussions under another thread if you'd like. In the meantime, I'll finish reading this...

Infidel (book) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

(No offence, but I'll take her personal account of the treatment of women in Islam over yours)
 
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sonofskeptish

It is what it is
It's like blaming the bible for George Bush killing millions.

BTW, I would not argue with someone who claimed George Bush's religious beliefs, which he based on his enterpretation of the Bible, played a role in him killing many human beings via unjust war. US foriegn policy, along with Bush and his Neo Con followers repulse me, and I hold them accountable for creating the environment which is fueling the hatred of the West.
 
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Ba'al

Active Member
I understand your point sonofskeptish and I agree with it somewhat but just because someone does something "in the name of" it doesn't mean it's an interpretation of their book. Some people hide behind scripture with no basis and act for political or other reasons.
 
There is little evidence the Canaanites actually practiced child sacrifice. Archeology shows the Canaanite culture was almost indistinguishable from that of the Israelites. Mark Smith in "The Early History of God: Yahweh and Other Deities of Ancient Israel" states "Despite the long regnant model that the Canaanites and Israelites were people of fundamentally different culture, archaeological data now casts doubt on this view. The material culture of the region exhibits numerous common points between Israelites and Canaanites in the Iron I period (ca. 1200–1000 BC). The record would suggest that the Israelite culture largely overlapped with and derived from Canaanite culture. "

If you want to talk about the killing of children and other genocide though, look no further than:

Deuteronomy (2:34) "So we captured all his cities at that time and utterly destroyed the men, women and children of every city. We left no survivor."

Deuteronomy (7:2) "and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy."

Joshua (6:21) "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and donkey, with the edge of the sword."

The Canaanites were descendants of Canaan, Noah's grandson, who possibly performed some form of sexual abuse on his grandfather while he was intoxicated.(Gen 9:20-24) In 1919 B.C.E., 450 years after the ending of the Noachian Flood in 2369 B.C.E, when two angels visited Sodom, the inhabitants revealed their perverted nature. The men of Sodom surrounded Lot’s house, “from boy to old man, all the people in one mob. And they kept calling out to Lot and saying to him: ‘Where are the men who came in to you tonight ? Bring them out to us that we may have intercourse with them.’” (Genesis 19:4, 5) This was ‘going after flesh for unnatural use.’(Jude 7)

God promised Abraham that his seed would eventually occupy the land of Canaan.(Gen 12:7) Note, though, that no execution was to take place in Abraham’s day. Why not ? “Because the error of the Amorites [the dominant Canaanite tribe] has not yet come to completion,” said God. (Genesis 15:16) God could see the immoral traits of the Canaanites would grow to such an extent to be deserving of death and allowed sufficient time to pass to clearly show this. Some 460 years would pass before the wickedness of that nation had reached such proportions that Moses could say in 1473 B.C.E.: “It is for the wickedness of these nations [of Canaan] that Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you.”(Deuteronomy 9:5) Moses identified some of the "wickedness" of the Canaanites, saying that "even their sons and their daughters they regularly burn in the fire to their gods."(Deut 12:31)

The Canaanites were indeed a people that had child sacrifice. According to Merrill F. Unger: “Excavations in Palestine have uncovered piles of ashes and remains of infant skeletons in cemeteries around heathen altars, pointing to the widespread practice of this cruel abomination.” (Archaeology and the Old Testament, 1964, p. 279) Halley’s Bible Handbook (1964, p. 161) says: “Canaanites worshipped, by immoral indulgence, as a religious rite, in the presence of their gods; and then, by murdering their first-born children, as a sacrifice to these same gods. It seems that, in large measure, the land of Canaan had become a sort of Sodom and Gomorrah on a national scale. . . . Did a civilization of such abominable filth and brutality have any right longer to exist? . . . Archaeologists who dig in the ruins of Canaanite cities wonder that God did not destroy them sooner than he did.”

The Canaanites had their immoral gods, such as Anath, being one of their principal goddesses. The references to Anath in the Ras Shamra (ancient Ugarit) texts give some indication of the degraded conception of the deities that the Canaanites undoubtedly shared with the Syrians. Anath is described as the fairest among Baal’s sisters, but as having an extremely violent temper. She is depicted as threatening to smash the skull of her father, El, and cause his gray hair to flow with blood and his gray beard with gore if he did not comply with her wishes. On another occasion Anath is shown going on a killing spree. She attached heads to her back, and hands to her girdle, and she plunged knee-deep in the blood and hip-deep in the gore of valiant ones. Her delight in such bloodshed is reflected in the words: “Her liver swells with laughter, her heart fills up with joy.”—Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by J. Pritchard, 1974, pp. 136, 137, 142, 152.

Merrill F. Unger in his book Archaeology and the Old Testament (1964, p. 175) again comments: “The Ugaritic epic literature has helped to reveal the depth of depravity which characterized Canaanite religion. Being a polytheism of an extremely debased type, Canaanite cultic practice was barbarous and thoroughly licentious.”

Who would want to live near this kind of people, if one has any sense of justice ? What parent would not feel revolted to hear news reports of such wicked acts and take the necessary measures to protect their children from such an atmosphere. When we hear of someone being murdered, it is disturbing, to say the least. But the moral conditions that existed in the land of Canaan when the Israelites were to take possession of the land in 1473 B.C.E, were "debased" and "barbarous and thoroughly licentious", having "sacred" prostitutes.

Therefore, God decreed that such a people as this would have to be destroyed to protect his people at that time, the nation of Israel. God gave the nation of Israel this command concerning the Canaanites: "The graven images of their gods you should burn in the fire. You must not desire the silver and the gold upon them, nor indeed take it for yourself, for fear you may be ensnared by it; for it is a thing detestable to Jehovah your God. And you must not bring a detestable thing into your house and actually become a thing devoted to destruction (“A thing devoted to destruction.” Hebrew, che´rem; Greek and Latin, a·na´the·ma, “an accursed thing.”) like it. You should thoroughly loathe it and absolutely detest it, because it is something devoted to destruction."(Deut 7:25, 26)
 
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Why do Christians consider the Old Testament as scripture relating to them? I don't get it . There is so much in there that is clearly not relevant to the teaching of Christ like warring against other cultures, killing everyone and taking their land.

You won't find Jesus Christ instructing His disciples to engage in such barbaric conduct. Reminds me more of extremist Islam than Christianity.

All threads drift away from the OP original question. That is natural. But to bring it back for a moment should followers of Jesus Christ upon reading this story feel inspired and justified in killing their wicked neighbors wholesale here in America?

Merrill F. Unger in his book Archaeology and the Old Testament (1964, p. 175) again comments: “The Ugaritic epic literature has helped to reveal the depth of depravity which characterized Canaanite religion. Being a polytheism of an extremely debased type, Canaanite cultic practice was barbarous and thoroughly licentious.”

Who would want to live near this kind of people, if one has any sense of justice ? What parent would not feel revolted to hear news reports of such wicked acts and take the necessary measures to protect their children from such an atmosphere. When we hear of someone being murdered, it is disturbing, to say the least. But the moral conditions that existed in the land of Canaan when the Israelites were to take possession of the land in 1473 B.C.E, were "debased" and "barbarous and thoroughly licentious", having "sacred" prostitutes.

Let's consider modern day America. Christians are surrounded by a culture that is absolutely insane in their worship of false idols in the shape of cars, houses, movie and sports stars. What used to be strange sex pactices are becoming more and more mainstream. The very public school they send their kids are the breeding grounds of immorality and general thug life.

So should the Christians start killing their neighbors like the jews did in Canaan or did Jesus bring to the world a higher way of dealing with such situations? To me the answer is obvious.

While there is much inspiring material in what we call the Old Testament texts let's stop pretending it is all the Eternal Word of God and just stick to trying to live according to the teaching of Christ.
 
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