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Question about persecution of early Muslims, and warfare in Islam

TG123456

Active Member
Salaam Alaikum, TashaN.

Allah will give the true understanding to the sincere. It's not about being smart but about being humble and sincere then Allah will give us the understanding and increase our faith.

{124} وَإِذَا مَا أُنْزِلَتْ سُورَةٌ فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ يَقُولُ أَيُّكُمْ زَادَتْهُ هَذِهِ إِيمَانًا فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَزَادَتْهُمْ إِيمَانًا وَهُمْ يَسْتَبْشِرُونَ

Whenever there cometh down a Sura, some of them say: "Which of you has had his faith increased by it?" Yea, those who believe, their faith is increased, and they do rejoice.

{125} وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ مَرَضٌ فَزَادَتْهُمْ رِجْسًا إِلَى رِجْسِهِمْ وَمَاتُوا وَهُمْ كَافِرُونَ
But those in whose hearts is a disease, it will add doubt to their doubt, and they will die in a state of Unbelief.


Quran (Surah 9)
Do you consider yourself to be sincere? I believe you are, but you have a different opinion than the scholars regarding the ayat about Allah not putting two hearts into anyone's body. Either their understanding is correct and yours isn't, or vice versa. You said you believe it to be literal, they said they believe it to be figurative. Does your diffference in interpretation mean that one of you is insincere?


I don't know Christianity enough to judge whether it's a violent religion or not but from what i saw in the OT it seems like a very violent religion unless Christianity deleted the OT from the bible then that's another story.
If you read the entire Bible (NT and OT), you will see that in terms of violence, the NT supercedes the OT. Christians are told to follow the commands in the NT, the OT is a history of what we believe God once did.
 

TG123456

Active Member
Maybe you misunderstood what i was trying to say. I said i don't know enough but this is what i have read in the bible. If you said it's not true then i'll believe you. As simple as that. So, what do you think? is it a similar prayer to what the other Prophets of Allah did?
Salaam Alaikum. The prayer recorded is similar to how the Quran tells people to pray in some respects, but not others. Yes, Jesus prostrated when He prayed according to the Bible. He also referred to God as His Father, which Muslims do not do. He also did not stop people from worshiping Him when they did so, which His disciples did when people tried to do the same to them.


Afwan. :)


When i say literal, i mean it's God's words, not someone else's words. Hadith is different since it's not the word of God but is wisdom and explanation for us. I won't lose sleep over it if i didn't know exactly how many did Prophet Solomon had.
OK, thank you for clarifying.

I understand hadith is an explanation, but are Muslims not ordered to obey Muhammad by the Quran? If he contradicted himself in teaching how many women Solomon slept with, he may also have made errors in passing down other things he learned from God. If he was misquoted, then who knows what else he was misquoted on.

They are two different issues. Solomon wives is something of the past which only Allah knows and when it comes to the prayer it's something which was being practiced since Prophet Mohamed till today by all Muslims and there is no disagreement on that.
True, but both the number of Solomon's wives and the number of prayers (5) was given by Muhammad. How do Muslims know he gave them the right number?

It is not true that there is no disagreement on the number of daily prayers being five. The Quran only Muslims claim there are only three.

Allah knows best. We just believe it because Allah said so.

{285} آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ رَبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْ رُسُلِهِ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ
The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His Books, and His Messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey, (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."


Quran (Surah 2)
What if the Quran's author was someone other than God?

It took me many years to come to the painful conclusion that not all of the Bible is inspired by Him, and in terms of my faith I am conflicted about many things. You may come to the same conclusion about the Quran.

Allah knows best. :)
Ameen to that!!!! :)


Allah knows best.
Another Amen!!!!!

Because i worship Allah, i don't worship Prophet Mohamed. He is the Messenger of Allah.
So you are saying that if you were to say you will do something in the Name of Allah and Muhamad, that would be the same as saying that you worship Muhammad?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salaam Alaikum, TashaN.

Do you consider yourself to be sincere? I believe you are, but you have a different opinion than the scholars regarding the ayat about Allah not putting two hearts into anyone's body. Either their understanding is correct and yours isn't, or vice versa. You said you believe it to be literal, they said they believe it to be figurative. Does your diffference in interpretation mean that one of you is insincere?

The more someone becomes sincere, the more Allah will grant him an increase in faith and understanding. I can't comment on who is sincere and who is not depending on who says what, and i never claimed to be sincere, because only Allah knows if i'm truly am.

I already told you before i'm no scholar. I'm still learning my religion. You can approach scholars for more answers in depth.

May Allah help me to be sincere, live my life as sincere, till i die as sincere. And Allah knows best.

If you read the entire Bible (NT and OT), you will see that in terms of violence, the NT supercedes the OT. Christians are told to follow the commands in the NT, the OT is a history of what we believe God once did.

So God was violent then he became peaceful you mean?

Why you think Jesus--according to Christianity--acted violently and told people to commit violence as is fully recorded in the OT before he came in human form and taught about peace?
 

TG123456

Active Member
The more someone becomes sincere, the more Allah will grant him an increase in faith and understanding. I can't comment on who is sincere and who is not depending on who says what, and i never claimed to be sincere, because only Allah knows if i'm truly am.

I already told you before i'm no scholar. I'm still learning my religion. You can approach scholars for more answers in depth.

May Allah help me to be sincere, live my life as sincere, till i die as sincere. And Allah knows best.
Thanks, I respect that.

So God was violent then he became peaceful you mean?
No, but His commandments to people changed.

Why you think Jesus--according to Christianity--acted violently and told people to commit violence as is fully recorded in the OT before he came in human form and taught about peace?
Perhaps because people back then were not yet ready to live the way He taught us to live when He descended. If I am not mistaken, alcohol was not banned immediately by God, according to Islam.

Firstly, it was only prohibited to drink before prayers, then it was prohibited altogether. The reason for this I heard is that people weren't yet ready for a directive to not drink at all.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salaam Alaikum. The prayer recorded is similar to how the Quran tells people to pray in some respects, but not others. Yes, Jesus prostrated when He prayed according to the Bible. He also referred to God as His Father, which Muslims do not do. He also did not stop people from worshiping Him when they did so, which His disciples did when people tried to do the same to them.

If that was your conclusion then i can say nothing but pray that Allah enlighten you to see the truth.

Afwan. :)

OK, thank you for clarifying.

I understand hadith is an explanation, but are Muslims not ordered to obey Muhammad by the Quran? If he contradicted himself in teaching how many women Solomon slept with, he may also have made errors in passing down other things he learned from God. If he was misquoted, then who knows what else he was misquoted on.

He didn't contradict himself but the issue is rather differing in how to express a large number in an irrelevant story to our faith. For me i don't see it as important but if you do then it's up to you.

True, but both the number of Solomon's wives and the number of prayers (5) was given by Muhammad. How do Muslims know he gave them the right number?

It is not true that there is no disagreement on the number of daily prayers being five. The Quran only Muslims claim there are only three.

I'm a Muslim. I'm not a Quran alone/only. You can discuss it with them further but to Muslims in general they accept 5 prayer as an undeniable truth.

What if the Quran's author was someone other than God?

It took me many years to come to the painful conclusion that not all of the Bible is inspired by Him, and in terms of my faith I am conflicted about many things. You may come to the same conclusion about the Quran.

{82} أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِنْدِ غَيْرِ اللَّهِ لَوَجَدُوا فِيهِ اخْتِلَافًا كَثِيرًا
Do they not consider the Qur-an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.


Quran (Surah 4)

Ameen to that!!!! :)

Another Amen!!!!!

So you are saying that if you were to say you will do something in the Name of Allah and Muhamad, that would be the same as saying that you worship Muhammad?

I'm not sure on the technical aspect of it whether it consider worshiping, not allowed, etc. Not sure of the exact ruling of what scholar call it but what i know is that we only must address Allah and when we want to ask something, we ask it from Allah.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thanks, I respect that.

You are most welcome.

No, but His commandments to people changed.

Perhaps because people back then were not yet ready to live the way He taught us to live when He descended. If I am not mistaken, alcohol was not banned immediately by God, according to Islam.

Firstly, it was only prohibited to drink before prayers, then it was prohibited altogether. The reason for this I heard is that people weren't yet ready for a directive to not drink at all.

I understand. Thank you for the explanation. :)
 

TG123456

Active Member
If that was your conclusion then i can say nothing but pray that Allah enlighten you to see the truth.
Thank you. I hope He guides us both to the truth.

He didn't contradict himself but the issue is rather differing in how to express a large number in an irrelevant story to our faith. For me i don't see it as important but if you do then it's up to you.
If I tell a story about a battle that involved 200 people and later on I say it involved 500 people, then regardless of how important the story is, I am contradicting myself.

If I said it involved 200 but someone wrote down that I said both 200 and 500, then the contradiction was made not by me but by the person quoting me.

Who did Muhammad get his information from about Solomon?

Also, who told him that after setting the sun glides until it comes to a place of rest where it prostrates and seeks permission to rise again? We began discussing this on the page below:
Question about hadith | Page 2 | ReligiousForums.com

I'm a Muslim. I'm not a Quran alone/only. You can discuss it with them further but to Muslims in general they accept 5 prayer as an undeniable truth.
Thank you for saying this. Earlier on you told me how many Christians on this forum disagree on who God is... do you know that an overwhelming majority of Christians believe in the divinity of Jesus and the Triune nature of God? Those who say otherwise also are on the outskirts of Christianity, like the Quran only/alone are on the outskirts of Islam.

{82} أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِنْدِ غَيْرِ اللَّهِ لَوَجَدُوا فِيهِ اخْتِلَافًا كَثِيرًا
Do they not consider the Qur-an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.


Quran (Surah 4)
What does the word "discrepancy" mean? Contradictions? Errors? Both?

I'm not sure on the technical aspect of it whether it consider worshiping, not allowed, etc. Not sure of the exact ruling of what scholar call it but what i know is that we only must address Allah and when we want to ask something, we ask it from Allah.
Thank you. The reason I brought this up is to show that when Jesus said to baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, this was in direct reference to the Father being God, the Son being God and the Holy Spirit being God. To say "in the name of..." and then put all three together means that each of them is God.

This is why Muslims do not address God and Muhammad when you need something, because you do not believe Muhammad is God (and rightly so).
Yet Jesus said exactly that about Himself and the Father and Holy Spirit,
 
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TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thank you. I hope He guides us both to the truth.

Amen.

If I tell a story about a battle that involved 200 people and later on I say it involved 500 people, then regardless of how important the story is, I am contradicting myself.

If I said it involved 200 but someone wrote down that I said both 200 and 500, then the contradiction was made not by me but by the person quoting me.

Who did Muhammad get his information from about Solomon?

Allah inspired him, and regarding the difference in describing the large number, i already explained it, and Allah knows best.

Also, who told him that after setting the sun glides until it comes to a place of rest where it prostrates and seeks permission to rise again? We began discussing this on the page below:
Question about hadith | Page 2 | ReligiousForums.com

Allah inspired him. Will reply there soon insha'Allah.

Thank you for saying this. Earlier on you told me how many Christians on this forum disagree on who God is... do you know that an overwhelming majority of Christians believe in the divinity of Jesus and the Triune nature of God? Those who say otherwise also are on the outskirts of Christianity, like the Quran only/alone are on the outskirts of Islam.

You know better, so i'll leave it at that.

What does the word "discrepancy" mean? Contradictions? Errors? Both?

You can read the Tafseer.

Thank you. The reason I brought this up is to show that when Jesus said to baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, this was in direct reference to the Father being God, the Son being God and the Holy Spirit being God. To say "in the name of..." and then put all three together means that each of them is God.

This is why Muslims do not address God and Muhammad when you need something, because you do not believe Muhammad is God (and rightly so).
Yet Jesus said exactly that about Himself and the Father and Holy Spirit,

If you really believe that Jesus would say such a thing, then may Allah show you the whole truth, not the partial truth.

And Allah knows best.

Alhamdullilah! :)

:)
 

TG123456

Active Member
IshAllah

Allah inspired him, and regarding the difference in describing the large number, i already explained it, and Allah knows best.
One could say the same for the writers of the Bible who made similar mistakes.

Allah inspired him. Will reply there soon insha'Allah.
OK

You know better, so i'll leave it at that.
It is true, non-Trinitarians among Christians are like Quran only among Muslims.

You can read the Tafseer.
The tafsirs I have read mention a lack of contradictions, when they discuss this verse. None of them says the Quran is free from errors. Is there any verse that says that the Quran is free from errors, not only free from contradictions? Thanks.

If you really believe that Jesus would say such a thing, then may Allah show you the whole truth, not the partial truth.
I see no reason why He wouldn't have. Hopefully this verse will put to rest any speculation that nowhere in the Bible does Jesus claim to be God.

And Allah knows best.
That's your answer to everything. And it is a darn good one. :)


:)[/QUOTE]
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
InshAllah

One could say the same for the writers of the Bible who made similar mistakes.

Here where we disagree. The bible is not the word of God. It's a collection of several books.

The Bible (from Koine Greek τὰ βιβλία, tà biblía, "the books") is a canonical collection of texts sacred inJudaism and Christianity. There is no single "Bible" and many Bibles with varying contents exist.[1] The term Bible is shared between Judaism and Christianity, although the contents of each of their collections of canonical texts is not the same. Different religious groups include different books within their Biblical canons, in different orders, and sometimes divide or combine books, or incorporateadditional material into canonical books.

Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OK

It is true, non-Trinitarians among Christians are like Quran only among Muslims.

Not the same, but whatever.

The tafsirs I have read mention a lack of contradictions, when they discuss this verse. None of them says the Quran is free from errors. Is there any verse that says that the Quran is free from errors, not only free from contradictions? Thanks.

I don't memorize the Quran but i don't recall a verse which says it's error-free because it doesn't make sense for someone to write a book and then say it's error free. Don't you think? you are a teacher and i think you can relate. In the same sense, when Allah revealed the Quran the argument was whether it was from Allah or not. Either way, feel free to share with us the so called errors.

I see no reason why He wouldn't have. Hopefully this verse will put to rest any speculation that nowhere in the Bible does Jesus claim to be God.

Sorry, that one is not good enough and you know it.

That's your answer to everything. And it is a darn good one. :)

:)

Well, i got scolded by my teacher when i was asking him about certain things, lol. When i explained for him some of the opinions i have he told me that i shouldn't speculate and that i should speak only of what i know for certain especially that i'm not a scholar.

That's why i'll answer of what i know, and Allah knows best.
 

TG123456

Active Member
Here where we disagree. The bible is not the word of God. It's a collection of several books.

The Bible (from Koine Greek τὰ βιβλία, tà biblía, "the books") is a canonical collection of texts sacred inJudaism and Christianity. There is no single "Bible" and many Bibles with varying contents exist.[1] The term Bible is shared between Judaism and Christianity, although the contents of each of their collections of canonical texts is not the same. Different religious groups include different books within their Biblical canons, in different orders, and sometimes divide or combine books, or incorporateadditional material into canonical books.

Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Correct. However, it is believed that the authors are inspired by God, not unlike Muhammad is believed to be.

Not the same, but whatever.
How is it not the same?

I don't memorize the Quran but i don't recall a verse which says it's error-free because it doesn't make sense for someone to write a book and then say it's error free. Don't you think? you are a teacher and i think you can relate. In the same sense, when Allah revealed the Quran the argument was whether it was from Allah or not. Either way, feel free to share with us the so called errors.
I already did, on several threads but one we can come back to is 46:15 saying gestation + weaning is 30 months, while 2:233 states that the period of breastfeeding is two years.

The tafsirs state this means that 6 months is the minimum date of viability- a child who is born 6 months after marriage is viable and a child born before that time is not, therefore the mother is an adulteress.

You stated that 6 months is a relative minimum, but I ask you how does this work if we are determining whether or not a person is to be accused of adultery. Wouldn't it be careless to declare a general minimum when it comes to a person potentially being accused of a capital crime?

Also, gestation + weaning = 30 months and breastfeeding = 2 years, it follows that the only children who are to be breastfed for two years are kids who were born after 6 months. Most kids, who are born after 9 months, would only need 21 months of breastfeeding.

Yet according to the World Health Organization, a child needs at least 2 years or more of breastfeeding in order to be healthy. This is true especially in developing countries.

Exclusive breastfeeding is recommended up to 6 months of age, with continued breastfeeding along with appropriate complementary foods up to two years of age or beyond.

WHO | Breastfeeding

Those who are breastfed less than 23 months often pay with their lives.

Key facts
  • Every infant and child has the right to good nutrition according to the Convention on the Rights of the Child.
  • Undernutrition is associated with 45% of child deaths.
  • Globally in 2012, 162 million children under 5 were estimated to be stunted and 51 million have low weight-for-height, mostly as a consequence of poor feeding and repeated infections; 44 million were overweight or obese.
  • About 38% of infants 0 to 6 months old are exclusively breastfed.
  • Few children receive nutritionally adequate and safe complementary foods; in many countries only a third of breastfed infants 6–23 months of age meet the criteria of dietary diversity and feeding frequency that are appropriate for their age.
  • About 800 000 children's lives could be saved every year among children under 5, if all children 0–23 months were optimally breastfed.
WHO | Infant and young child feeding

In Indonesia, children who were breastfed 12-36 months were healthier than those who did not. In Guinea-Bissau, kids who were no longer breastfed 12-35 months of age were 3 times more likely to die than those who continued to breastfeed.

Health effects
Priscilla Colletto stated in Beyond Toddlerhood: The Breastfeeding Relationship Continues, "The adverse health effects of weaning a child before or during toddlerhood are well documented for Third World countries such as Guinea-Bissau, where children who were no longer breastfed at ages 12–35 months had a 3.5 times higher mortality rate than did their peers who continued to breastfeed."[171] Dr. Laurence Grummer-Strawn, widely known in the breastfeeding research and advocacy communities,[172] observed that breastfeeding is protective against diarrheal diseases and other infections and that breastfed children aged 12 to 36 months in Indonesia have much greater mid-arm circumference than children who have been weaned at an early age. He also noted that the incidence of malnourishment in breastfed Indonesian children is 3–5% less common than generally encountered in early-weened children. In one study, artificially fed infants had 2 to 3 times as many episodes of significant illnesses (defined as "otitis media, lower respiratory disease, significant vomiting or diarrhea, and any illness requiring hospital admission").[151] In traditional human societies, the lack of nutrients missing in breast milk such as iron, zinc, and vitamin b12 was supplemented through premastication and feeding of meat to the child.[173][174]

Breastfeeding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry, that one is not good enough and you know it.
Why not? You yourself said you wouldn't make a vow in the name of God and Muhammad because that would mean equating Muhammad with God.

This is exactly what Jesus did in the verse, He equated Himself and the Holy Spirit and the Father.

Well, i got scolded by my teacher when i was asking him about certain things, lol. When i explained for him some of the opinions i have he told me that i shouldn't speculate and that i should speak only of what i know for certain especially that i'm not a scholar.

That's why i'll answer of what i know, and Allah knows best.
Cool, thanks for sharing that. In Canada, we have a very lax discipline policy and my lovely little teenagers just love to share their opinions... whether it is called for or not.

"Why can't I just listen to music??? I don't wanna work with Angie, math is bor-ring"
"We gotta read??? Come on Mr, X. That's bunk..."
"It isn't my fault he got me mad and I threw an eraser at him! Now I gotta spend 5 minutes after school???? This is so stupid!"

LOL I actually encourage kids to express themselves, and especially when they are learning English and History, a lot of our focus is getting them to read and understand and then analyze what they have read and form their own opinions. A society that can think for itself is harder to manipulate.

But yeah, sometimes it's also important to shut up and listen, especially when you don't know what you are talking about... not that I would ever tell my little darlings that :)
 
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