Question about paul and stephen.And the afterlife.For the Jehovah's Witnesses

[Dogknox20]

At 2 Corinthians 5:8, Paul says: “We are of good courage and are well pleased rather to become absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord.” Some believe that these words refer to an intermediate state of waiting. Such ones refer also to Jesus’ promise to his faithful followers that he was going to prepare a place in which to ‘receive them home to himself.’ But when would such prospects be realized? Christ said that it would be when he ‘came again’ in his future presence. (John 14:1-3) Similarly, at 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, Paul said that the hope common to anointed Christians was to inherit a heavenly dwelling. This would come about, not through some presumed immortality of the soul, but through a resurrection during Christ’s presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44)

natasha levchenko good to meet you...
I point you to this passage, The dead are still around us, not really gone!!
1 Samuel 28:10 Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.”
11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
“Bring up Samuel,” he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

ALSO (Note Jesus is telling us this story) Luke 16:22
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

natasha levchenko If the Rich man was in Gehenna (Hell) he would not call Abraham Father; Satan would be his father! Abraham would NOT call the Rich man Son if he was in Gehenna, he would be the son of Satan! NO ONE....

natasha levchenko no one would want to visit Gehenna (Hell) but some might want to visit the dead those souls NOT in hell! (Look above 1 Samuel 28:10) Saul is an example of someone wanting to visit the dead! A person in Gehenna (Hell) would be full of hate; THINK The Rich Man had Compassion he wanted to warn his brothers he was NOT full of hate! When the Rich man is sanctified Jesus can cross and bring him into his Kingdom!
Galatians 3:7
Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.

ALSO... 1 John 5:16
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

natasha levchenko If someone dies with a sin that does NOT lead to death, they will not be in Gehenna (Hell) their soul will still be alive! They will NOT enter heaven; scriptures are clear... "Nothing impure enters heaven"! They NEED to be SACTYFYED before they can enter heaven! Prayer offered for these people will help then enter! God will give them life

In the beginning....
God the Father is Spirit!
God the Word is Spirit!
God the Holy Spirit is Spirit!
God is SPIRIT!

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

natasha levchenko The WORD became Man! God took on flesh! God lived with us! Jesus is Spirit & Flesh!

 

[Dogknox20]

I don't think DogKnox20 likes analyzing things carefully. Because it goes against his natural grain. It doesn't matter to him what Jesus said. But thank you for your astute analysis. As the Son of God, Jesus wields power now. He said so to his disciples after his resurrection. And Hebrews 1:9 says about Jesus Christ himself (KJV): "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." "Thy God"? Now whatever can that mean? @Dogknox20, you think it means Jesus has a GOD?? when it says, "THY GOD"? Even so, American Standard Version says, "You loved rectitude and hated wickedness; for this reason God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of joy beyond your fellows,” God anointed Jesus? The God of Jesus anointed him? Why yes, it says that Jesus' God ANOINTED HIM. my, oh my, isn't that interesting, DogKnox20. So Jesus has a God. "his God." Jesus has a God, @Dogknox20? Yup, that's what it says...Now perhaps later you can work on what obeisance and worship really means. -- Have a good one!

.
YoursTrue Jesus is a Man... Jesus is God.. Jesus is the God/Man!
God became flesh and lived with us! UNTIL....
Until Jesus became flesh, he was The Word! The Word was Spirit as God the Father and the Holy Spirit! "God is Spirit"!

The Word (became flesh!) Spirit became flesh (Man)! ONLY...
YoursTrue only God is perfect Jesus rose from the dead because he was Perfect!

God became FATHER when Jesus was born; the Word became "Son" of the Father when Mary gave birth!

Christians are "Christ Followers"! Christians have ALWAYS worshiped Jesus because Christians have always believed Jesus is God!
Thomas is a Christian he was Apostle!
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Clearly the Christian is Blessed because they believe the same as The Apostle Thomas!
Clearly those today who reject what Christians have always believed are NOT Blessed!

 

[Dogknox20]

Don’t the klu klux klan call themselves :

• “White Christian Brotherhood”?

It would seem then that simply using the title ‘Christian’ does not mean you believe in Christ Jesus!!

Soapy exactly.. You hit it perfect!

To be Christian you MUST believe what Christians have ALWAYS Believed! The KKK are NOT Christian if they reject Christian belief! SOME....

Soapy some people call themselves Christian but are NOT! Example: Arius WAS a Christian until he rejected Christian belief! Arius said "Jesus is not God" from then on Christians rejected Arius as a Heretic as a False Teacher! Arius was AMONG Christians until he stepped outside of Christian belief!
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

Clearly those who believe as Arius are NOT in The Way of Truth! Arius was removed from "The Way of Truth!"

 

[Dogknox20]

At 2 Corinthians 5:8, Paul says: “We are of good courage and are well pleased rather to become absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord.” Some believe that these words refer to an intermediate state of waiting. Such ones refer also to Jesus’ promise to his faithful followers that he was going to prepare a place in which to ‘receive them home to himself.’ But when would such prospects be realized? Christ said that it would be when he ‘came again’ in his future presence. (John 14:1-3) Similarly, at 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, Paul said that the hope common to anointed Christians was to inherit a heavenly dwelling. This would come about, not through some presumed immortality of the soul, but through a resurrection during Christ’s presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44)

.
natasha levchenko I hope all is well...
I point out "God lives OUTSIDE of Time!"
Those people who have died with sin that does not lead to death will still have to be purged of this sin before they can enter heaven! There is sin that KILL these are sins that send us to Gehenna (Hell)! All peoples MUST be in a state of grace; Sanctified before they can enter heaven! Scriptures are clear. Nothing impure can enter heaven!

1 John 5:16
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

natasha levchenko There is a sin that leads to death, all who die with this sin cannot be sanctified, they are dead they are Satan' children! People who have died with a non-lethal sin cannot be dead... BECAUSE Prayer will gain them life!!

1 Samuel 28:10
Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.”
11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
“Bring up Samuel,” he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

Revelation 6:9-10, John writes, “When he [Christ] opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?'”

In Revelation 20:4 John sees these souls again: “Then I saw . . . the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God and who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

 

[Balthazzar]

you are perhaps reading and trying to apply a scripture that really applies only to those that are of the chosen ones that are to be part of the kingdom government .you should understand that Paul was speaking in a letter to people who like him self have that appointment.
that can be hard to understand if you don't realize that there are those that govern and those that are governed.

Ok, so a wedding feast has been prepared - From what I understand, those who were chosen to attend chose not to go, so anyone and everyone who could be found were invited also. The chosen - The called - Those who answered for role call and those who didn't. All this seems relevant to your point. I might suggest and will, that the many reflects the few who answered but who were also not first to be chosen - It's a reflection of need, I guess. The effort itself global - one body, many parts and many mansions - The cause? Truth and life as the way of life for life, for better or worse. The governed and those who govern? That's us - It includes everyone. We're here - Why not make the most of it?

Scriptural relevance? Those who hear and do as opposed to those who don't being family of the way.

Luke 8:21

 

[natasha levchenko]

natasha levchenko good to meet you...
I point you to this passage, The dead are still around us, not really gone!!
1 Samuel 28:10 Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.”
11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
“Bring up Samuel,” he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

ALSO (Note Jesus is telling us this story) Luke 16:22
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

natasha levchenko If the Rich man was in Gehenna (Hell) he would not call Abraham Father; Satan would be his father! Abraham would NOT call the Rich man Son if he was in Gehenna, he would be the son of Satan! NO ONE....

natasha levchenko no one would want to visit Gehenna (Hell) but some might want to visit the dead those souls NOT in hell! (Look above 1 Samuel 28:10) Saul is an example of someone wanting to visit the dead! A person in Gehenna (Hell) would be full of hate; THINK The Rich Man had Compassion he wanted to warn his brothers he was NOT full of hate! When the Rich man is sanctified Jesus can cross and bring him into his Kingdom!
Galatians 3:7
Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.

ALSO... 1 John 5:16
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

natasha levchenko If someone dies with a sin that does NOT lead to death, they will not be in Gehenna (Hell) their soul will still be alive! They will NOT enter heaven; scriptures are clear... "Nothing impure enters heaven"! They NEED to be SACTYFYED before they can enter heaven! Prayer offered for these people will help then enter! God will give them life

In the beginning....
God the Father is Spirit!
God the Word is Spirit!
God the Holy Spirit is Spirit!
God is SPIRIT!

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

natasha levchenko The WORD became Man! God took on flesh! God lived with us! Jesus is Spirit & Flesh!

It’s nice to meet you too!
Saul desperately wanted to believe that it was Samuel and so let himself be deceived. Verse 3 says that Samuel was dead and buried. The scriptures quoted under the preceding subheading make clear that there was no part of Samuel that was alive in another realm and able to communicate with Saul. The voice that pretended to be that of Samuel was that of an impostor.

The truth about the condition of the dead is clearly stated in the Bible. But who tried to deceive the first human pair about death? Satan contradicted God’s warning that disobedience would bring death. (Gen. 3:4; Rev. 12:9) In time, of course, it became obvious that humans did die as God said they would. Reasonably, then, who was responsible for inventing the idea that humans really do not die but that some spirit part of man survives the death of the body? Such a deception fits Satan the Devil, whom Jesus described as “the father of the lie.” (John 8:44; see also 2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10.) Belief that the dead are really alive in another realm and that we can communicate with them has not benefited mankind. On the contrary, Revelation 18:23 says that, by means of the spiritistic practices of Babylon the Great, “all the nations were misled.” The spiritistic practice of ‘talking with the dead’ is actually a fraudulent deception that can put people in contact with the demons and often leads to a person’s hearing unwanted voices and being harassed by those wicked spirits.

Luke 16:22
Many Christians say that Jesus was not telling a parable or pictorial illustration but was telling things as they actually are. This makes Jesus ridiculous. It makes him talk contrary to the rest of the Bible as to what it has to say about Haʹdes or Sheol.

Accordingly, the “certain rich man” and the “certain beggar named Lazarus” were not literal men; they simply pictured two classes of people. The one class died to its favored position with the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God, and thereafter had a tormenting religious experience on earth. The other class died to its unfavorable religious condition and was conducted by angelic power into the favor of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God, through his sacrificed Son, Jesus Christ. This understanding and explanation of Jesus’ prophetic parable is based upon the actual historical experience of the two general religious classes among the natural descendants of the patriarch Abraham in Jesus’ day.

 

[paarsurrey]

It’s nice to meet you too!
Saul desperately wanted to believe that it was Samuel and so let himself be deceived. Verse 3 says that Samuel was dead and buried. The scriptures quoted under the preceding subheading make clear that there was no part of Samuel that was alive in another realm and able to communicate with Saul. The voice that pretended to be that of Samuel was that of an impostor.

The truth about the condition of the dead is clearly stated in the Bible. But who tried to deceive the first human pair about death? Satan contradicted God’s warning that disobedience would bring death. (Gen. 3:4; Rev. 12:9) In time, of course, it became obvious that humans did die as God said they would. Reasonably, then, who was responsible for inventing the idea that humans really do not die but that some spirit part of man survives the death of the body? Such a deception fits Satan the Devil, whom Jesus described as “the father of the lie.” (John 8:44; see also 2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10.) Belief that the dead are really alive in another realm and that we can communicate with them has not benefited mankind. On the contrary, Revelation 18:23 says that, by means of the spiritistic practices of Babylon the Great, “all the nations were misled.” The spiritistic practice of ‘talking with the dead’ is actually a fraudulent deception that can put people in contact with the demons and often leads to a person’s hearing unwanted voices and being harassed by those wicked spirits.

Luke 16:22
Many Christians say that Jesus was not telling a parable or pictorial illustration but was telling things as they actually are. This makes Jesus ridiculous. It makes him talk contrary to the rest of the Bible as to what it has to say about Haʹdes or Sheol.

Accordingly, the “certain rich man” and the “certain beggar named Lazarus” were not literal men; they simply pictured two classes of people. The one class died to its favored position with the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God, and thereafter had a tormenting religious experience on earth. The other class died to its unfavorable religious condition and was conducted by angelic power into the favor of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God, through his sacrificed Son, Jesus Christ. This understanding and explanation of Jesus’ prophetic parable is based upon the actual historical experience of the two general religious classes among the natural descendants of the patriarch Abraham in Jesus’ day.

" 2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10. "

Why mix falsehood of Hellenist-Paul's epistles with the truthful teachings of (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah*, please?:
Holy Bible King James Version (Red Letter Edition)
The Roman Catholic Holy Bible with the words of Jesus in red.
World Messianic Bible

Right?

Regards
___________
* who never died a cursed death on the cross, as per many clues in the Gospels itself, please, right?

 

[Dogknox20]

It’s nice to meet you too!
Saul desperately wanted to believe that it was Samuel and so let himself be deceived. Verse 3 says that Samuel was dead and buried. The scriptures quoted under the preceding subheading make clear that there was no part of Samuel that was alive in another realm and able to communicate with Saul. The voice that pretended to be that of Samuel was that of an impostor.

The truth about the condition of the dead is clearly stated in the Bible. But who tried to deceive the first human pair about death? Satan contradicted God’s warning that disobedience would bring death. (Gen. 3:4; Rev. 12:9) In time, of course, it became obvious that humans did die as God said they would. Reasonably, then, who was responsible for inventing the idea that humans really do not die but that some spirit part of man survives the death of the body? Such a deception fits Satan the Devil, whom Jesus described as “the father of the lie.” (John 8:44; see also 2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10.) Belief that the dead are really alive in another realm and that we can communicate with them has not benefited mankind. On the contrary, Revelation 18:23 says that, by means of the spiritistic practices of Babylon the Great, “all the nations were misled.” The spiritistic practice of ‘talking with the dead’ is actually a fraudulent deception that can put people in contact with the demons and often leads to a person’s hearing unwanted voices and being harassed by those wicked spirits.

Luke 16:22
Many Christians say that Jesus was not telling a parable or pictorial illustration but was telling things as they actually are. This makes Jesus ridiculous. It makes him talk contrary to the rest of the Bible as to what it has to say about Haʹdes or Sheol.

Accordingly, the “certain rich man” and the “certain beggar named Lazarus” were not literal men; they simply pictured two classes of people. The one class died to its favored position with the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God, and thereafter had a tormenting religious experience on earth. The other class died to its unfavorable religious condition and was conducted by angelic power into the favor of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God, through his sacrificed Son, Jesus Christ. This understanding and explanation of Jesus’ prophetic parable is based upon the actual historical experience of the two general religious classes among the natural descendants of the patriarch Abraham in Jesus’ day.

.
natasha levchenko You said... The voice of Samuel was that of an impostor.
I reply: Please show the scriptures that say: It was an impostor! All you have is a wish and a dream that the teaching of the watch tower is correct!

Your words.. Belief that the dead are really alive in another realm and that we can communicate with them has not benefited mankind.
The words of Jesus... "The Rich Man said to Father Abraham send Lazarus to me with a drop of water for my thirst!"
If I were you, I would believe the words of Jesus over those of the Watch Tower! Why would Jesus make us believe there was dead people that could think and understand if it was not so!

Matthew 17:3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Mark 9:4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

Luke 9:30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus.
Matthew 22:32
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
Mark 12:26
Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

Matthew 13:49
This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
natasha levchenko the dead can weep and gnash their teeth!
Charles Taze Russell started your church in the 1870s until then it was unheard of! You are forced to reject the scriptures as lies to be a JW!
Rev 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

144,000 VIRGIN MEN! Not one of the JW's 144,000 was a virgin!
Not even one of the so called 144,000 JW's told the truth! They claimed tom be virgins!
Again, I ask: Please show the scriptures that say: It was an impostor!

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=a5a8...2kvSmVob3ZhaCdzX1dpdG5lc3Nlc19iZWxpZWZz&ntb=1

 

[cataway]

virgin ,a word denoting that some action has never been done .you assume its something sexual, or could it be refereeing to something they have never done . i have never been on a surf board ,have never been surfing the waves on any waters. to such a action i am a virgin .

 

[Dogknox20]

virgin ,a word denoting that some action has never been done .you assume its something sexual, or could it be refereeing to something they have never done . i have never been on a surf board ,have never been surfing the waves on any waters. to such a action i am a virgin .

cataway I hope all is well.
I reply.. Nice try! But .......
The scriptures say different they are very clear, there is NO misunderstanding!
Revelation 14:4
These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb.

Merry Christmas

 

[cataway]

cataway I hope all is well.
I reply.. Nice try! But .......
The scriptures say different they are very clear, there is NO misunderstanding!
Revelation 14:4
These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb.

Merry Christmas

please remember which book you are reading from . even the word woman can mean something different than its face valvule.

 

[cataway]

cataway I hope all is well.
I reply.. Nice try! But .......
The scriptures say different they are very clear, there is NO misunderstanding!
Revelation 14:4
These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb.

Merry Christmas

The fact that the 144,000 “are virgins” does not mean that members of this class are necessarily unmarried in the flesh. The apostle Paul wrote to Christians who had a heavenly calling that, whereas there are advantages to Christian singleness, marriage is preferable under certain circumstances. (1 Corinthians 7:1, 2, 36, 37) What characterizes this class is a spiritual virginity. They have avoided spiritual adultery with worldly politics and with false religion. (James 4:4; Revelation 17:5) As the betrothed bride of Christ, they have kept themselves pure, “without a blemish in among a crooked and twisted generation.”—Philippians 2:15.

 

[Dogknox20]

please remember which book you are reading from. even the word woman can mean something different than its face value.

cataway I hope all is well...
I agree: The Woman is the Church because, as Rev 12:17 tells us, “The rest of her offspring” are those who bear witness to Jesus, making them Christians.
The Woman is Mary as Rev 12:1 tells us!
Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
cataway Eve (The Woman) did not ascend to heaven. And the Church did not bring forth the Messiah (rather, the Messiah brought forth his Church).

3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Verse # 4 (above) is telling us they are celibate Priests... .. They are "Christians" martyrs offered as first fruits to God they are followers of the Lamb!! Christians believe Jesus is God! The apostles are Christians they worship Jesus they proclaim Jesus as God!

The Apostle Thomas is a Christian he worships Jesus... Clearly Thomas A Christian proclaims Jesus is his God!
John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”!
cataway Christians today are Blessed! Because they believe Jesus is God! It is also very clear those who reject Jesus as their God; those who do Not believe as Thomas are Not Blessed!

 

[tigger2]

The Apostle Thomas is a Christian he worships Jesus... Clearly Thomas A Christian proclaims Jesus is his God!
John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”!
cataway Christians today are Blessed! Because they believe Jesus is God! It is also very clear those who reject Jesus as their God; those who do Not believe as Thomas are Not Blessed!

....................................

Statement of a trinitarian apologist: “The clearest example in the NT of the use of "God" for Jesus, Jn 20:28. Jesus is addressed as God (ho theos mou). The scene is designed to serve as a climax to the Gospel; as the resurrected Jesus stands before the disciples, one of their number at last gives expression to an adequate faith in Jesus.”

It is more likely that the phrase here is praise (doxology) or blessing of God in heaven. Notice that there is no complete statement here - there is no verb and predicate. These are omitted because the meaning is commonly understood by Christians and Jews at this time.

Furthermore it cannot be an address to Jesus (or anyone else) as most trinitarians claim. This is made certain by the John’s use of kurios (“Lord” in the nominative case as used for subjects and predicate nouns). But in every instance in the NT the vocative case kurie is used for addressing “Lord.” For proof of this, see my personal study: Examining the Trinity: KURIE - All NT Uses of "Lord" in Address

Thomas did not believe that Jesus had been resurrected. He needed to see Jesus and feel his wounds to know that he had really been resurrected. (You cannot see God)

As for the climax of John’s Gospel, the very end of this same chapter tells us:

20:30) - “Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
20:31) - “but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” - John 20:19-31, RSV.

That’s where any honest statement of Jesus being God should be found - - - but it isn’t.

This is a small part of my own study (not the WT’s). Here’s the rest Examining the Trinity: MYGOD .

 

[cataway]

so far you are speaking of more than one woman ? i wounder it you are aware that some of the apostles were married ?? your thinking says they could not be of the 144,000 and yet they are

 

[Dogknox20]

....................................

Statement of a trinitarian apologist: “The clearest example in the NT of the use of "God" for Jesus, Jn 20:28. Jesus is addressed as God (ho theos mou). The scene is designed to serve as a climax to the Gospel; as the resurrected Jesus stands before the disciples, one of their number at last gives expression to an adequate faith in Jesus.”

It is more likely that the phrase here is praise (doxology) or blessing of God in heaven. Notice that there is no complete statement here - there is no verb and predicate. These are omitted because the meaning is commonly understood by Christians and Jews at this time.

Furthermore it cannot be an address to Jesus (or anyone else) as most trinitarians claim. This is made certain by the John’s use of kurios (“Lord” in the nominative case as used for subjects and predicate nouns). But in every instance in the NT the vocative case kurie is used for addressing “Lord.” For proof of this, see my personal study: Examining the Trinity: KURIE - All NT Uses of "Lord" in Address

Thomas did not believe that Jesus had been resurrected. He needed to see Jesus and feel his wounds to know that he had really been resurrected. (You cannot see God)

As for the climax of John’s Gospel, the very end of this same chapter tells us:

20:30) - “Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
20:31) - “but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” - John 20:19-31, RSV.

That’s where any honest statement of Jesus being God should be found - - - but it isn’t.

This is a small part of my own study (not the WT’s). Here’s the rest Examining the Trinity: MYGOD .

.
tigger2 I hope all is well........
You are forced to massage the words of God to make your point!
Word for word "My Lord and my God"!
Fact Christians have always believed "Jesus is God"! Thomas is a Christian he is an Apostle this means Christians have always believed Jesus is God!
Christians know God can take any form he wants to take because the God of the Christian is almighty! Your god is not almighty fact is you have placed your god into a box, your god has limits placed on what he can and cannot do by your man-made church!!

The Christian God took the form of a man just as the Apostle John tells you! Back 2000 years ago people were asked to believe a Man (Jesus) could be God! Jesus is the Man/God!
Today people are asked to believe God can take the form of bread! Christians believe God can take any form he wants to take even the form of bread!
Jews are Not Christian they reject a Man/God!
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
From the Church’s earliest days, the Fathers referred to Christ’s presence in the Eucharist.

Ignatius of Antioch is a Christian... A.D. 110
“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ . . . and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . .. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr A.D. 151
“For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

Jesus is not just a man he is God he can take the form of bread!
Arius was a Christian until he said Jesus is not God thus Christians rejected Arius as a false teacher!

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

In 2 Corinthians 5:10.Paul says we all must appear before the judgment seat of christ.For anything good or bad done.While in the body.Also in Acts 7:54-59.While being stoned to death stephen sees jesus in heaven and asks him to receive his spirit.I think this matches 2 Corinthians 5:10.What do you think?

Here is all the bible passages.I referenced:

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 5:10 - King James Version

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 7:54-59 - King James Version

And I got all the passages from here: BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.

Frank, I just wanted to say that I enjoy reading your threads about the afterlife, and I encourage your interest in it. I don't think there's anything wrong with being curious about the paranormal, as I stated in your other thread (read it here), but as I explained in the other post, I advise using caution when researching the paranormal online. As you are aware, I have a very different and distinct perspective on the afterlife than the other participants in your thread. I'm sure you're also aware that I don't believe what the Bible teaches about the afterlife, as I explained in your other thread here. But I respect you for believing the Bible and will discuss it with you if you'd like.

In spite of not believing the Bible, I still enjoy reading about other people's perspectives on the afterlife and finding out how various Christians interpret the Bible verses differently that allege what is supposed to occur to human spirits in the afterlife. Additionally, threads like this one and your other ones with scripture help me understand what many Christians believe about the afterlife, in a manner similar to what I said about knowing what skeptics believe (read it here). The information I've gained from these threads will also be helpful when I encounter skeptics when doing paranormal investigations or in other situations that are related to the afterlife.

To be honest, your threads on the afterlife and other similar threads help me prepare to speak to skeptics (Christian or otherwise) in real-life situations, such as the ones I described in my previous posts here and here. My inbox is always open if you have any specific questions relating to the paranormal that you would like to discuss privately or if you'd like to just discuss general paranormal topics.

 

[Joshua Pryce]

In 2 Corinthians 5:10.Paul says we all must appear before the judgment seat of christ.For anything good or bad done.While in the body.Also in Acts 7:54-59.While being stoned to death stephen sees jesus in heaven and asks him to receive his spirit.I think this matches 2 Corinthians 5:10.What do you think?

I believe 2 Corinthians 5:10 is thoroughly important, because its a comfort for those suffering but for those abusing and persecuting others its a reminder.

 

[natasha levchenko]

.
natasha levchenko You said... The voice of Samuel was that of an impostor.
I reply: Please show the scriptures that say: It was an impostor! All you have is a wish and a dream that the teaching of the watch tower is correct!

Your words.. Belief that the dead are really alive in another realm and that we can communicate with them has not benefited mankind.
The words of Jesus... "The Rich Man said to Father Abraham send Lazarus to me with a drop of water for my thirst!"
If I were you, I would believe the words of Jesus over those of the Watch Tower! Why would Jesus make us believe there was dead people that could think and understand if it was not so!

Matthew 17:3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Mark 9:4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

Luke 9:30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus.
Matthew 22:32
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
Mark 12:26
Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

Matthew 13:49
This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
natasha levchenko the dead can weep and gnash their teeth!
Charles Taze Russell started your church in the 1870s until then it was unheard of! You are forced to reject the scriptures as lies to be a JW!
Rev 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

144,000 VIRGIN MEN! Not one of the JW's 144,000 was a virgin!
Not even one of the so called 144,000 JW's told the truth! They claimed tom be virgins!
Again, I ask: Please show the scriptures that say: It was an impostor!

You know the Bible teaches at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 about the condition of the dead.

It clearly teaches that the dead are unconscious and lifeless in the grave.
About 17 years ago I used to practice magic. I was strongly convinced I could talk to dead ones. I heard voices and saw spirits. That was a terrible thing.
Demons would regularly attack me I thought I would die!
But right after I gave up witchery my life completely changed.
Do you remember the situation?
Acts 16:16-19
16And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: 17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. 18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. 19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers
Why are you so annoyed about watchtower?!
Don’t you think I don’t have my own brain to distinguish what is true and what is wrong?
If you are strongly convinced that there’s afterlife.it’s ok. We all have a free will.
What is the real intention of this conversation? Do you really want to say you believe in afterlife or just state that Jehovah’s Witnesses are mistaken?
Deutoronomy18:10
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Don’t you find it weird to prohibit to communicate with dead ? Why is this ban on a par with the ban on fortune telling? Why not to speak with dead if He is the God of living not of the dead?
Isn’t it because there are not “living dead”?

 

[Dogknox20]

You know the Bible teaches at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 about the condition of the dead.

It clearly teaches that the dead are unconscious and lifeless in the grave.
About 17 years ago I used to practice magic. I was strongly convinced I could talk to dead ones. I heard voices and saw spirits. That was a terrible thing.
Demons would regularly attack me I thought I would die!
But right after I gave up witchery my life completely changed.
Do you remember the situation?
Acts 16:16-19
16And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: 17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. 18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. 19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers
Why are you so annoyed about watchtower?!
Don’t you think I don’t have my own brain to distinguish what is true and what is wrong?
If you are strongly convinced that there’s afterlife.it’s ok. We all have a free will.
What is the real intention of this conversation? Do you really want to say you believe in afterlife or just state that Jehovah’s Witnesses are mistaken?
Deutoronomy18:10
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Don’t you find it weird to prohibit to communicate with dead ? Why is this ban on a par with the ban on fortune telling? Why not to speak with dead if He is the God of living not of the dead?
Isn’t it because there are not “living dead”?

.
natasha levchenko I hope all is well....
First off: "Christians believe in an afterlife!"
Jesus himself tells us of "Lazarus and the Rich Man!" The Rich man Abraham and Lazarus are all active and conscious all can talk and move!
Jesus rases the dead. Peter rases the dead; At the Transfiguration Jesus speaks with Moses and Elija! This is recorded in three gospels!
natasha levchenko It is weird to speak to the dead proving it happens!
1 Samuel 28:3 Starts off with >>>Now Samuel was dead, ...the story goes to verse 24!
Samuel was brought back From the Dead to question him! It a story of communicate with dead!
The dead are in a place of waiting until they can enter heaven!

natasha levchenko A person dies with small sin; the person cannot enter heaven because nothing impure can enter heaven & the person does NOT go to Satan because they have a sin that does not lead to death! This person with a sin that does not kill (lead to death) must be purged (cleaned Sanctified) before they can enter heaven! Prayers remove the sin!
1 John 5:16
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

1 Corinthians 3:12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

natasha levchenko I must add speaking of abomination unto the LORD the JW offer Child Sacrifice to God in his name! Denying blood transfusion to a child because God does not want blood transfer is truly abomination unto the LORD! Blood transfusions are not forbidden by the Bible. There is NOTHING in the scriptures about Blood Transfusions! All that is found in scripture is "no eating blood"! There is also found don't eat "Fat"! Do you eat fat!? The Bible teaches that the Jews in Old Testament times were forbidden to eat the blood or fat of animals. Satan hates the innocent he hates all people; killing your children in the name of God as the JW's do is doing the work of Satan!

Charles Russell prophesied that Jesus would return and set up His kingdom in 1914 more proof of the errors of the JWs.
natasha levchenko you can also find plenty of references to “the cross” in earlier WTS publications. In fact, for at least fifty years this was the case.
Satan hates the Cross because it is a Christian symbol; He hates Christians thus he would never allow a cross on any of his churches!