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Question about Gog and Magog for Muslims

TG123456

Active Member
LOL I know what the word means, my friend. I have been twice in Palestine. Thank you for the lesson, however.

Thanks for thanks...Metaphoric meaning is not only interesting but it is the reality unfolded in the form of long awaited promised reformer as Ahmadiyya Muslim Promised Messiah and Mahdi and his Khilafat.....That is why now there is no need to keep living in past commentaries about this matter........ [Sun shine itself is the proof that Sun has come out].
What makes you believe there was an Ahmadiyya Messiah? Who was he?

Friend! Is not it reality that Jesus (a.s.) was follower of Moses (a.s.) and Moses like all Prophets was believer of One God with no associates. But latter the fictional ideas like trinity, salvation etc came in. It is not just Muslims' believe, Gospel too prove the serious deviations.
The Bible teaches Jesus was God who came down to earth in human flesh. Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of Man, the Son of God, and a prophet. The word "trinity" is not in the Bible, but the idea is. Salvation comes through believing in Jesus, which includes following Him.

Thank you for these links. What specifically in them would you like to discuss?


We have to recognize that hadith is for support for Quran and not judge over Quran. Hadith is at level of Bible (which has very little revealed part, most narratives)...Hadiths-s also draw attention to ponder and find deep understanding of Quran for practice.
The hadith, as you said, provides support for the Quran. Support is provided very clearly for the reality that the Quran is speaking of a physical structure believed to be holding back Gog and Magog until the end times, not for the statement that this is all a metaphor for the West.

The mention of earlier events mentioned in Quran serve two purpose; true history and future prophesies for moral and spiritual enhancements.
The Quran verses speak of a physical wall holding back a real nation, and the hadiths back this up.

It is not interesting but there are many pointings to this.


Surely there was no human source who talked to Hazrat Muhammad (s.a.w.), Quran is revelation by God.

[16:104] And indeed We know that they say that it is only a man who teaches him. But the tongue of him to whom they unjustly incline in making this insinuation is foreign, while this is Arabic tongue, plain and clear.

Note 1904 @ The Holy Quran
I am not saying that the man taught Muhammad the Quran, but that he claimed to have seen the wall allegedly build by Dhul Qarnain that Muhammad was talking about, and described it as having stripes- a description which Muhammad verified as accurate.


=Cyrus (Khorus) was pious man who received revelation. He was praised in Isaiah 45.

=He was attacked by kings. He retaliated and his victories started towards west first of all; Babul, Nanvah, etc. He reached to ‘Black sea’ [the murky water as said in Quran]

=Then he moved towards east and gained power in Afghanistan, Samarkand Bukhara etc..

=He paid attention in middle areas and made wall because gog magog [human warriors, not peculiar creature] were attacking from there….Gog magog were people of north ( Moscow, Tobalsak) …They were countered with Faras people. They would repeatedly make troubles for southerners. Wall was made to stop attackers. [Second Ahmadiyya Khalifah has completely explained things with references from non-muslims sources in his commentary of Surah Al-Kahf chapter 18, It is very long subject. Not possible to write all here. Following link is based on ]

Some part is available in Note 2131 @ The Holy Quran

You will find rational meanings of Surah Al-Kahf chapter 18, if you please read the whole subject with notes from pages 1474 to 1544 @
The Holy Quran
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/quran/tafseer/?page=1474&region=E1



Verses mentioned history of Cyrus, wall and people as mentioned above.

The second way (the important way) is to take it as spiritual metaphor for future for Later Days, which is the basic intention.
If the verses were describing Cyrus as being Dhul Al Qarnain, then you have just proved God could not have been the author of the Quran.

Cyrus was not a monotheist, regardless of what the Old Testament may claim.

After conquering Babylon, Cyrus had a document made that bragged about his conquests. He gave credit to the pagan god, Marduk, for his victories. He also pledged to increase his offerings to the gods.


The surviving inscription on the Cyrus Cylinder consists of 45 lines of text written in Akkadian cuneiform script. The first 35 lines are on fragment "A" and the remainder are on fragment "B."[30] A number of lines at the start and end of the text are too badly damaged for more than a few words to be legible.


The text is written in an extremely formulaic style that can be divided into six distinct parts:



Extract from the Cyrus Cylinder (lines 15–21), giving the genealogy of Cyrus and an account of his capture of Babylon in 539 BC.

  • Lines 1–19: an introduction reviling Nabonidus, the previous king of Babylon, and associating Cyrus with the god Marduk;
  • Lines 20–22: detailing Cyrus's royal titles and genealogy, and his peaceful entry to Babylon;
  • Lines 22–34: a commendation of Cyrus's policy of restoring Babylon;
  • Lines 34–35: a prayer to Marduk on behalf of Cyrus and his son Cambyses;
  • Lines 36–37: a declaration that Cyrus has enabled the people to live in peace and has increased the offerings made to the gods;
  • Lines 38–45: details of the building activities ordered by Cyrus in Babylon.[31]


Sample detail image showing cuneiform script.

The beginning of the text is partly broken; the surviving content reprimands the character of the deposed Babylonian king Nabonidus. It lists his alleged crimes, charging him with the desecration of the temples of the gods and the imposition of forced labor upon the populace. According to the proclamation, as a result of these offenses, the god Marduk abandoned Babylon and sought a more righteous king. Marduk called forth Cyrus to enter Babylon and become its new ruler.[32]


In [Nabonidus's] mind, reverential fear of Marduk, king of the gods, came to an end. He did yet more evil to his city every day; … his [people ................…], he brought ruin on them all by a yoke without relief … [Marduk] inspected and checked all the countries, seeking for the upright king of his choice. He took the hand of Cyrus, king of the city of Anshan, and called him by his name, proclaiming him aloud for the kingship over all of everything.[32]


Cyrus Cylinder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cyrust "the great" maybe was more of a humane ruler than those before him, and he did give his conquered subjects religious freedoms. Of course, this doesn't change the fact he conquered them brutally in the first place.

He was "great" at not only conquest, but also paganism.

Quran is real as a real should be, like the original revelations of Prophets Abraham, Moses and Jesus (on them be peace) ......With piousness and pondering true meanings are dawned....... Previous Books were translations and rewritten so it is possible some words or sentence were misplaced but the message was 'pay rights of One God and rights of people'.


The work of true reformers by God is to put things back in order. That is why by the grace of Allah the Exalted, Ahmadiyya Muslims' commentaries are fully clear of fictional stories [subject of miracles is different] because Hazrat Promised Messiah (on whom be peace) was Mahdi (guided one) too, i.e. he learned Holy Quran and true Hadith-s from Allah the Exalted and further commentaries were written in the light his guide lines. For example he taught: Quran is word of God and science is work of same God....He reminded: Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) implied: All wisdom like a a lost treasure of believer, get it, from where ever it is provided.
If you are citing Ahmadiyya commentary, then there is a fictional story already of Cyrus being a pious and godly man.

Quran is real, it mentions realities for lessons and to learn pious ways of life, hold hands of practicing believer and give it in the kind Hand of Lord.
It has some truth in it but also some mistakes.

One is sure you know the great reason of denial of Jesus (on whom be peace) was the then-collections, commentaries and sayings. Unfortunately same is the main reason of discord and decline in Islamic world today.

For Ahmadiyya Muslims the promised judge, the servant of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) has come, his Khilafat continues, now practice and move ahead is being done.
Who do you believe the servant of Muhammad to be who has come?

Good wishes and may the your belief in coming of Jesus into world bring you into true Islam which contains all essentials of religion.
Thank you for your kind wishes. I believe in Christ's coming into the world but I believe true Islam- true submission to God- is achieved by accepting who He is and what He did for us on the cross, and trying to follow His teachings.

Al-A`raf Chapter 7 : Verse 158
‘Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet, the Immaculate one, whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel which are with them. He enjoins on them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful for them the good things and forbids them the bad, and removes from them their burden and the shackles that were upon them. So those who shall believe in him, and honour and support him, and help him, and follow the light that has been sent down with him — these shall prosper.’

REFERENCE: An Ahmadiyya Muslim Place to understand Holy Quran (recitation, grammar, dictionary, translations, commentaries, answers to allegations, and more)
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/quran/
Where do you believe Muhammad is in the Torah and Gospel? What do you believe the Torah and Gospel to be?
 

TG123456

Active Member
Thank you, DawudTalut. These links are very interesting,

Did the Ahdmadiyya Messiah claim that Cyrus the Great was Dhul Al Qarnain?
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
Thank you, DawudTalut. These links are very interesting,

Did the Ahmadiyya Messiah claim that Cyrus the Great was Dhu Al Qarnain?

Peace be on you.
1= There are places in Quran where names are mentioned. And there are places where only properties are mentioned for divine wisdom. [Just as example.

[21:86] And remember Ishmael, and Idris, and Dhil-Kifl. All were of the steadfast.

Dhil-Kifl : Note # 2415 @ The Holy Quran ]




2= There is compilation of commentaries of verses of Holy Quran which is based on Ahmadiyya Promised Messiah (a.s.)’s explanations taken from various sources [80+ books +] at alislam.org/quran.


Related to your specific enquiry i.e Did the Ahmadiyya Messiah claim that Cyrus the Great was Dhul Qarnain? --- A focused gist of his words about Dhul Qarnain (from several pages) and some further details are : He said:

- The Dhul Qarnain in Quran is different than Alexander as some people thought.


- Dhul Qarnain takes part from two centuries [by the very meanings].


- By the teaching of divine revelation, I am Dhul Qarnain. God the Exalted has taught me it is prophesy But meaning related to past are not denied these are about previous and this meaning are about future [i.e. himself]. Holy Quran is not mere story teller But under each of its story there is a prophecy and the story of Dhul Qarnain is prophesy for the era of Promised Messiah.


- Wall is the (metaphoric) wall of arguments, iron slabs mean his followers should make themselves well learned and steadfast, and by fire it is meant that his followers should have fire of love of God, and bronze means hearts which melt by seeing divine signs. Thus his followers should have steadfastness, get colour of fire of love of God and have melted hearts.

- He said: God has opened for me that Promised Messiah is mentioned as Dhul Qarnain.


Thus lesson are, Ahmadiyya Promised Messiah hinted:

a= ‘Alexander is not the man’ and ‘past meanings exist’


b= His emphasis is upon practical aspect of ‘Dhul Qarnain in later days’, the long awaited spiritual reformer and his deliverance of divine message.

========================================

For the historical Dhul Qarnain

=== First Ahmadiyya Khalifah (1908-1914) was of opinion (based on Daniel ch 8, v 34 and 20) that ‘historical Dhul Qarnain’ was any among kings of Media and Persia (Mada and Faras). To him, Gog Magog were nations which were in north of Kashmir Iran and Bukhara… He wrote, wall between Armenia and Azerbaijan was made to stop attacks from these people.


=== Second Ahmadiyya Khalifah, wrote a very long commentary of Chapter 18, and deduced that:

1-It tells that Holy Quran was sent to correct errors crept in previous Books.

2- And it warns those who make son of God.

3-They shall get lot of material progress and they shall also oppose Islam.

4- They were very weak in their own start, they were persecuted but mercy of God had saved them and gave them progress but later they started to make associates of God and leaned towards earth.

5- Muslims are asked when they get progress they should avoid: weakness in worship, more than necessary indulgence in worldly wealth, luxurious life.

6- At that time, Muslims and their brethren people of Books will be like poor and rich brothers. One will be overconfident for his wealth and other will pay attention to God. Eventually wealth will be diminish.

7- Then the changes were mentioned which were foretold to Moses (a.s.) and he was told that one will come to complete the matters with unique excellence.

8- It was told that, at the decline of Christianity, Muslim will get success. Then time will come when Muslims will forget their faith, God will penalize them by giving Christians progress again.

9- And it will be through those nations which were stopped to move towards south and east in earlier times.

10- The great calamity will fall on the world and world will come under two big races or two big principles. Oppression will increase.

11- At that time God will create means to stop these advances. It is pointed that this flood will be stopped again by the people who had stopped the political uprising of Gog Magog in ancient times.



According to second Ahmadiyya Khalifah (r.a.) Holy Quran tells the following properties of Dhul Qarnain

=(1)=

1-He would get revelations or true dreams.

2-He went to west .

3-Then to east.

4-Then to a middle ground, from where Gog Magog were attacking.



The dream of Daniel has given him name ‘dhul qarnain’ (of two horns…..it also means of two centuries) and he is from Media and Persia.

Which king of them was good to get revelation. Isaiah 45, 1-5 tells it was Cyrus…… “I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me” it means he remembered God not by names of God in Torah. He was follower of Prophet Zoroaster……. Righteousness of him is mentioned in history. His enemies loved him too.


“ CHARACTER AND PRAISE OF CYRUS.

Cyrus may be justly considered as the wisest conqueror,and the most accomplished prince to be found in profane history.He was possessed of all the qualities requisite to form a great man ; wisdom, moderation,courage, magnanimity, noble sentiments, a wonderful ability in managing men's tempers and gaining their affections, a thorough knowledge of all the parts of the military art, as far as that age had carried it, a vast extent of genius and capacity for forming, and an equal steadiness and prudence for executing the greatest projects.

It is very common for those heroes, who shine in the field, and make a great figure in the time of action, to make but a very poor one upon other occasions, and in matters of a different nature. We are astonished when we see them alone and without their armies, to find what a difference there is between a general and a great man ; to see what low sentiments and mean things they are capable of in private life ; how they are influenced by jealousy, and governed by interest; how disagreeable and odious they render themselves by their haughty deportment and arrogance, which they think necessary to preserve their authority, and which only serve to make them hated and despised.

Cyrus had none of these defects. He appeared always the same, that is, always great, even in the most indifferent matters. Being assured of his greatness, of which real merit was the foundation and support, he thought of nothing more than…”

Source: The ancient history of the Egyptians, Carthaginians, Assyrians ..., Volume 2
By Charles Rollin


It is true that world “gods” is mentioned in his talks in above book. But It may have many reason, wrong translations or any other thing.

BUT

“The monotheism of Cyrus can be proved from the tribute paid to him in the Old Testament (Isaiah 45:1–5). It is impossible to conceive "the God of Israel" to have praised Cyrus in such high terms if he were a dualist.Thus spoke prophet Isaiahas:

"Thus says the LORD to His anointed,
To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held—
To subdue nations before him
And loose the armor of kings,
To open before him the double doors,
So that the gates will not be shut:
'I will go before you
And make the crooked places straight;
I will break in pieces the gates of bronze
And cut the bars of iron.
I will give you the treasures of darkness
And hidden riches of secret places,
That you may know that I, the LORD,
Who callyouby your name,
Amthe God of Israel.
For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.
I am the LORD, andthereis no other;
There is no God besides Me..."1

Cyrus the great is also remembered in the Cyrus legend as a tolerant and ideal monarch who was called 'father of his people' by the ancient Persians. In the Bible an outstanding homage is paid to him as the liberator of the Jews captive in Babylonia.

In short, the figure of Cyrus has survived throughout history as a man of exceptional qualities. He built a vast empire the like of which was seldom created by other warriors of heroic fame. Among the emperors, he is the only one who escaped censure by all the historians who ever wrote about great men of history. None could ever find a speck of a blemish in his character as a man or in his conduct as a monarch. He became the epitome of the greatest qualities expected of a ruler. In wars he was bold and dauntless, in conquest magnanimous. His unshakeable belief in the Unity of God must have sprung from Zoroasterashimself.

Zoroastrianism in all its features is closest to Judaism and Islam. Hence its precept of goodness and evil, light and darkness had to be the same as it was in Judaism and Islam. 'Ahraman' is very likely therefore, another name for Satan and no more. ” @

Zoroastrianism




Beware of false translation of Cyrus Cylinder: “The false translation has been widely circulated; alluding to its claim that Cyrus supposedly has stated that "Every country shall decide for itself whether or not it wants my leadership."[38]……..”

Source: Cyrus Cylinder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




=(2)=

Holy Quran tell that Dhul Qarnain’s victories started from west first…..He reached to place where sun was setting in murky water. It is Black Sea. History tells so.


=(3)=

Holy Quran tells Then he went to east, his empire spread to Afghanistan, Samarkand Bukhara. Proven from history too.


=(4)=

Holy Quran tells that he went to middle ground and made wall……Bible tells that people of north were Gog Magog. It also tells a king of Persia will fight with them to liberate Persia. Ezekiel 38……..Historian Josephus writes that they were Scythians tribe people. …….Historian Herodotus writes about Scythians attack from northern countries to southern countries.
Derbent wall is in the way.



Did Cyrus made Derbent Wall it?

1-Alexander could not have made it as he remained busy in subduing rebellions and he could not have time to make such great thing. 2-Indication available:

a- Dara, who was king after the son of Cyrus, attacked Scythians to break their strength. He went through Greece and attacked from Europe….. Scythians were living in north near his country, why he took long route?.....It can be guessed that because Cyrus had earlier made a wall near Derbent, it was not feasible to take large army from gates and wall was not broken too.

b-If wall did not exist before, Dara could not have gone 1000 miles far to attack Scythians. There was danger, as they had gone far, Scythians could have attacked from sides quickly.


==> Thus historical Dhul Qarnain is Cyrus.

==> And more importantly it is prophesy for later days’ spiritual reformer, Promised Messiah Mahdi – Who was granted two main titles in accordance with word Dul Qarnain (of two horns) and he saw two the times of two centuries from all calenders.

Hope it suffices. Good wishes.
 
Last edited:

TG123456

Active Member
Peace be on you.
Peace be upon you also.

1= There are places in Quran where names are mentioned. And there are places where only properties are mentioned for divine wisdom. [Just as example.

[21:86] And remember Ishmael, and Idris, and Dhil-Kifl. All were of the steadfast.

Dhil-Kifl : Note # 2415 @ The Holy Quran ]
True.

2= There is compilation of commentaries of verses of Holy Quran which is based on Ahmadiyya Promised Messiah (a.s.)’s explanations taken from various sources [80+ books +] at alislam.org/quran.
Thanks for sharing the link.

Related to your specific enquiry i.e Did the Ahmadiyya Messiah claim that Cyrus the Great was Dhul Qarnain? --- A focused gist of his words about Dhul Qarnain (from several pages) and some further details are : He said:

- The Dhul Qarnain in Quran is different than Alexander as some people thought.


- Dhul Qarnain takes part from two centuries [by the very meanings].


- By the teaching of divine revelation, I am Dhul Qarnain. God the Exalted has taught me it is prophesy But meaning related to past are not denied these are about previous and this meaning are about future [i.e. himself]. Holy Quran is not mere story teller But under each of its story there is a prophecy and the story of Dhul Qarnain is prophesy for the era of Promised Messiah.


- Wall is the (metaphoric) wall of arguments, iron slabs mean his followers should make themselves well learned and steadfast, and by fire it is meant that his followers should have fire of love of God, and bronze means hearts which melt by seeing divine signs. Thus his followers should have steadfastness, get colour of fire of love of God and have melted hearts.

- He said: God has opened for me that Promised Messiah is mentioned as Dhul Qarnain.


Thus lesson are, Ahmadiyya Promised Messiah hinted:

a= ‘Alexander is not the man’ and ‘past meanings exist’


b= His emphasis is upon practical aspect of ‘Dhul Qarnain in later days’, the long awaited spiritual reformer and his deliverance of divine message.

========================================

For the historical Dhul Qarnain

=== First Ahmadiyya Khalifah (1908-1914) was of opinion (based on Daniel ch 8, v 34 and 20) that ‘historical Dhul Qarnain’ was any among kings of Media and Persia (Mada and Faras). To him, Gog Magog were nations which were in north of Kashmir Iran and Bukhara… He wrote, wall between Armenia and Azerbaijan was made to stop attacks from these people.


=== Second Ahmadiyya Khalifah, wrote a very long commentary of Chapter 18, and deduced that:

1-It tells that Holy Quran was sent to correct errors crept in previous Books.

2- And it warns those who make son of God.

3-They shall get lot of material progress and they shall also oppose Islam.

4- They were very weak in their own start, they were persecuted but mercy of God had saved them and gave them progress but later they started to make associates of God and leaned towards earth.

5- Muslims are asked when they get progress they should avoid: weakness in worship, more than necessary indulgence in worldly wealth, luxurious life.

6- At that time, Muslims and their brethren people of Books will be like poor and rich brothers. One will be overconfident for his wealth and other will pay attention to God. Eventually wealth will be diminish.

7- Then the changes were mentioned which were foretold to Moses (a.s.) and he was told that one will come to complete the matters with unique excellence.

8- It was told that, at the decline of Christianity, Muslim will get success. Then time will come when Muslims will forget their faith, God will penalize them by giving Christians progress again.

9- And it will be through those nations which were stopped to move towards south and east in earlier times.

10- The great calamity will fall on the world and world will come under two big races or two big principles. Oppression will increase.

11- At that time God will create means to stop these advances. It is pointed that this flood will be stopped again by the people who had stopped the political uprising of Gog Magog in ancient times.



According to second Ahmadiyya Khalifah (r.a.) Holy Quran tells the following properties of Dhul Qarnain

=(1)=

1-He would get revelations or true dreams.

2-He went to west .

3-Then to east.

4-Then to a middle ground, from where Gog Magog were attacking.



The dream of Daniel has given him name ‘dhul qarnain’ (of two horns…..it also means of two centuries) and he is from Media and Persia.

Which king of them was good to get revelation. Isaiah 45, 1-5 tells it was Cyrus…… “I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me” it means he remembered God not by names of God in Torah. He was follower of Prophet Zoroaster……. Righteousness of him is mentioned in history. His enemies loved him too.


“ CHARACTER AND PRAISE OF CYRUS.

Cyrus may be justly considered as the wisest conqueror,and the most accomplished prince to be found in profane history.He was possessed of all the qualities requisite to form a great man ; wisdom, moderation,courage, magnanimity, noble sentiments, a wonderful ability in managing men's tempers and gaining their affections, a thorough knowledge of all the parts of the military art, as far as that age had carried it, a vast extent of genius and capacity for forming, and an equal steadiness and prudence for executing the greatest projects.

It is very common for those heroes, who shine in the field, and make a great figure in the time of action, to make but a very poor one upon other occasions, and in matters of a different nature. We are astonished when we see them alone and without their armies, to find what a difference there is between a general and a great man ; to see what low sentiments and mean things they are capable of in private life ; how they are influenced by jealousy, and governed by interest; how disagreeable and odious they render themselves by their haughty deportment and arrogance, which they think necessary to preserve their authority, and which only serve to make them hated and despised.

Cyrus had none of these defects. He appeared always the same, that is, always great, even in the most indifferent matters. Being assured of his greatness, of which real merit was the foundation and support, he thought of nothing more than…”

Source: The ancient history of the Egyptians, Carthaginians, Assyrians ..., Volume 2
By Charles Rollin


It is true that world “gods” is mentioned in his talks in above book. But It may have many reason, wrong translations or any other thing.

BUT

“The monotheism of Cyrus can be proved from the tribute paid to him in the Old Testament (Isaiah 45:1–5). It is impossible to conceive "the God of Israel" to have praised Cyrus in such high terms if he were a dualist.Thus spoke prophet Isaiahas:

"Thus says the LORD to His anointed,
To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held—
To subdue nations before him
And loose the armor of kings,
To open before him the double doors,
So that the gates will not be shut:
'I will go before you
And make the crooked places straight;
I will break in pieces the gates of bronze
And cut the bars of iron.
I will give you the treasures of darkness
And hidden riches of secret places,
That you may know that I, the LORD,
Who callyouby your name,
Amthe God of Israel.
For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.
I am the LORD, andthereis no other;
There is no God besides Me..."1

Cyrus the great is also remembered in the Cyrus legend as a tolerant and ideal monarch who was called 'father of his people' by the ancient Persians. In the Bible an outstanding homage is paid to him as the liberator of the Jews captive in Babylonia.

In short, the figure of Cyrus has survived throughout history as a man of exceptional qualities. He built a vast empire the like of which was seldom created by other warriors of heroic fame. Among the emperors, he is the only one who escaped censure by all the historians who ever wrote about great men of history. None could ever find a speck of a blemish in his character as a man or in his conduct as a monarch. He became the epitome of the greatest qualities expected of a ruler. In wars he was bold and dauntless, in conquest magnanimous. His unshakeable belief in the Unity of God must have sprung from Zoroasterashimself.

Zoroastrianism in all its features is closest to Judaism and Islam. Hence its precept of goodness and evil, light and darkness had to be the same as it was in Judaism and Islam. 'Ahraman' is very likely therefore, another name for Satan and no more. ” @

Zoroastrianism




Beware of false translation of Cyrus Cylinder: “The false translation has been widely circulated; alluding to its claim that Cyrus supposedly has stated that "Every country shall decide for itself whether or not it wants my leadership."[38]……..”

Source: Cyrus Cylinder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




=(2)=

Holy Quran tell that Dhul Qarnain’s victories started from west first…..He reached to place where sun was setting in murky water. It is Black Sea. History tells so.


=(3)=

Holy Quran tells Then he went to east, his empire spread to Afghanistan, Samarkand Bukhara. Proven from history too.


=(4)=

Holy Quran tells that he went to middle ground and made wall……Bible tells that people of north were Gog Magog. It also tells a king of Persia will fight with them to liberate Persia. Ezekiel 38……..Historian Josephus writes that they were Scythians tribe people. …….Historian Herodotus writes about Scythians attack from northern countries to southern countries.
Derbent wall is in the way.



Did Cyrus made Derbent Wall it?

1-Alexander could not have made it as he remained busy in subduing rebellions and he could not have time to make such great thing. 2-Indication available:

a- Dara, who was king after the son of Cyrus, attacked Scythians to break their strength. He went through Greece and attacked from Europe….. Scythians were living in north near his country, why he took long route?.....It can be guessed that because Cyrus had earlier made a wall near Derbent, it was not feasible to take large army from gates and wall was not broken too.

b-If wall did not exist before, Dara could not have gone 1000 miles far to attack Scythians. There was danger, as they had gone far, Scythians could have attacked from sides quickly.


==> Thus historical Dhul Qarnain is Cyrus.

==> And more importantly it is prophesy for later days’ spiritual reformer, Promised Messiah Mahdi – Who was granted two main titles in accordance with word Dul Qarnain (of two horns) and he saw two the times of two centuries from all calenders.

Hope it suffices. Good wishes.
Peace be on you.
1= There are places in Quran where names are mentioned. And there are places where only properties are mentioned for divine wisdom. [Just as example.

[21:86] And remember Ishmael, and Idris, and Dhil-Kifl. All were of the steadfast.

Dhil-Kifl : Note # 2415 @ The Holy Quran ]




2= There is compilation of commentaries of verses of Holy Quran which is based on Ahmadiyya Promised Messiah (a.s.)’s explanations taken from various sources [80+ books +] at alislam.org/quran.


Related to your specific enquiry i.e Did the Ahmadiyya Messiah claim that Cyrus the Great was Dhul Qarnain? --- A focused gist of his words about Dhul Qarnain (from several pages) and some further details are : He said:

- The Dhul Qarnain in Quran is different than Alexander as some people thought.


- Dhul Qarnain takes part from two centuries [by the very meanings].


- By the teaching of divine revelation, I am Dhul Qarnain. God the Exalted has taught me it is prophesy But meaning related to past are not denied these are about previous and this meaning are about future [i.e. himself]. Holy Quran is not mere story teller But under each of its story there is a prophecy and the story of Dhul Qarnain is prophesy for the era of Promised Messiah.


- Wall is the (metaphoric) wall of arguments, iron slabs mean his followers should make themselves well learned and steadfast, and by fire it is meant that his followers should have fire of love of God, and bronze means hearts which melt by seeing divine signs. Thus his followers should have steadfastness, get colour of fire of love of God and have melted hearts.

- He said: God has opened for me that Promised Messiah is mentioned as Dhul Qarnain.


Thus lesson are, Ahmadiyya Promised Messiah hinted:

a= ‘Alexander is not the man’ and ‘past meanings exist’


b= His emphasis is upon practical aspect of ‘Dhul Qarnain in later days’, the long awaited spiritual reformer and his deliverance of divine message.

========================================

For the historical Dhul Qarnain

=== First Ahmadiyya Khalifah (1908-1914) was of opinion (based on Daniel ch 8, v 34 and 20) that ‘historical Dhul Qarnain’ was any among kings of Media and Persia (Mada and Faras). To him, Gog Magog were nations which were in north of Kashmir Iran and Bukhara… He wrote, wall between Armenia and Azerbaijan was made to stop attacks from these people.


=== Second Ahmadiyya Khalifah, wrote a very long commentary of Chapter 18, and deduced that:

1-It tells that Holy Quran was sent to correct errors crept in previous Books.

2- And it warns those who make son of God.

3-They shall get lot of material progress and they shall also oppose Islam.

4- They were very weak in their own start, they were persecuted but mercy of God had saved them and gave them progress but later they started to make associates of God and leaned towards earth.

5- Muslims are asked when they get progress they should avoid: weakness in worship, more than necessary indulgence in worldly wealth, luxurious life.

6- At that time, Muslims and their brethren people of Books will be like poor and rich brothers. One will be overconfident for his wealth and other will pay attention to God. Eventually wealth will be diminish.

7- Then the changes were mentioned which were foretold to Moses (a.s.) and he was told that one will come to complete the matters with unique excellence.

8- It was told that, at the decline of Christianity, Muslim will get success. Then time will come when Muslims will forget their faith, God will penalize them by giving Christians progress again.

9- And it will be through those nations which were stopped to move towards south and east in earlier times.

10- The great calamity will fall on the world and world will come under two big races or two big principles. Oppression will increase.

11- At that time God will create means to stop these advances. It is pointed that this flood will be stopped again by the people who had stopped the political uprising of Gog Magog in ancient times.



According to second Ahmadiyya Khalifah (r.a.) Holy Quran tells the following properties of Dhul Qarnain

=(1)=

1-He would get revelations or true dreams.

2-He went to west .

3-Then to east.

4-Then to a middle ground, from where Gog Magog were attacking.



The dream of Daniel has given him name ‘dhul qarnain’ (of two horns…..it also means of two centuries) and he is from Media and Persia.

Which king of them was good to get revelation. Isaiah 45, 1-5 tells it was Cyrus…… “I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me” it means he remembered God not by names of God in Torah. He was follower of Prophet Zoroaster……. Righteousness of him is mentioned in history. His enemies loved him too.


“ CHARACTER AND PRAISE OF CYRUS.

Cyrus may be justly considered as the wisest conqueror,and the most accomplished prince to be found in profane history.He was possessed of all the qualities requisite to form a great man ; wisdom, moderation,courage, magnanimity, noble sentiments, a wonderful ability in managing men's tempers and gaining their affections, a thorough knowledge of all the parts of the military art, as far as that age had carried it, a vast extent of genius and capacity for forming, and an equal steadiness and prudence for executing the greatest projects.

It is very common for those heroes, who shine in the field, and make a great figure in the time of action, to make but a very poor one upon other occasions, and in matters of a different nature. We are astonished when we see them alone and without their armies, to find what a difference there is between a general and a great man ; to see what low sentiments and mean things they are capable of in private life ; how they are influenced by jealousy, and governed by interest; how disagreeable and odious they render themselves by their haughty deportment and arrogance, which they think necessary to preserve their authority, and which only serve to make them hated and despised.

Cyrus had none of these defects. He appeared always the same, that is, always great, even in the most indifferent matters. Being assured of his greatness, of which real merit was the foundation and support, he thought of nothing more than…”

Source: The ancient history of the Egyptians, Carthaginians, Assyrians ..., Volume 2
By Charles Rollin


It is true that world “gods” is mentioned in his talks in above book. But It may have many reason, wrong translations or any other thing.

BUT

“The monotheism of Cyrus can be proved from the tribute paid to him in the Old Testament (Isaiah 45:1–5). It is impossible to conceive "the God of Israel" to have praised Cyrus in such high terms if he were a dualist.Thus spoke prophet Isaiahas:

"Thus says the LORD to His anointed,
To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held—
To subdue nations before him
And loose the armor of kings,
To open before him the double doors,
So that the gates will not be shut:
'I will go before you
And make the crooked places straight;
I will break in pieces the gates of bronze
And cut the bars of iron.
I will give you the treasures of darkness
And hidden riches of secret places,
That you may know that I, the LORD,
Who callyouby your name,
Amthe God of Israel.
For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.
I am the LORD, andthereis no other;
There is no God besides Me..."1

Cyrus the great is also remembered in the Cyrus legend as a tolerant and ideal monarch who was called 'father of his people' by the ancient Persians. In the Bible an outstanding homage is paid to him as the liberator of the Jews captive in Babylonia.

In short, the figure of Cyrus has survived throughout history as a man of exceptional qualities. He built a vast empire the like of which was seldom created by other warriors of heroic fame. Among the emperors, he is the only one who escaped censure by all the historians who ever wrote about great men of history. None could ever find a speck of a blemish in his character as a man or in his conduct as a monarch. He became the epitome of the greatest qualities expected of a ruler. In wars he was bold and dauntless, in conquest magnanimous. His unshakeable belief in the Unity of God must have sprung from Zoroasterashimself.

Zoroastrianism in all its features is closest to Judaism and Islam. Hence its precept of goodness and evil, light and darkness had to be the same as it was in Judaism and Islam. 'Ahraman' is very likely therefore, another name for Satan and no more. ” @

Zoroastrianism




Beware of false translation of Cyrus Cylinder: “The false translation has been widely circulated; alluding to its claim that Cyrus supposedly has stated that "Every country shall decide for itself whether or not it wants my leadership."[38]……..”

Source: Cyrus Cylinder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




=(2)=

Holy Quran tell that Dhul Qarnain’s victories started from west first…..He reached to place where sun was setting in murky water. It is Black Sea. History tells so.


=(3)=

Holy Quran tells Then he went to east, his empire spread to Afghanistan, Samarkand Bukhara. Proven from history too.


=(4)=

Holy Quran tells that he went to middle ground and made wall……Bible tells that people of north were Gog Magog. It also tells a king of Persia will fight with them to liberate Persia. Ezekiel 38……..Historian Josephus writes that they were Scythians tribe people. …….Historian Herodotus writes about Scythians attack from northern countries to southern countries.
Derbent wall is in the way.



Did Cyrus made Derbent Wall it?

1-Alexander could not have made it as he remained busy in subduing rebellions and he could not have time to make such great thing. 2-Indication available:

a- Dara, who was king after the son of Cyrus, attacked Scythians to break their strength. He went through Greece and attacked from Europe….. Scythians were living in north near his country, why he took long route?.....It can be guessed that because Cyrus had earlier made a wall near Derbent, it was not feasible to take large army from gates and wall was not broken too.

b-If wall did not exist before, Dara could not have gone 1000 miles far to attack Scythians. There was danger, as they had gone far, Scythians could have attacked from sides quickly.


==> Thus historical Dhul Qarnain is Cyrus.

==> And more importantly it is prophesy for later days’ spiritual reformer, Promised Messiah Mahdi – Who was granted two main titles in accordance with word Dul Qarnain (of two horns) and he saw two the times of two centuries from all calenders.

Hope it suffices. Good wishes.
Thanks for the explanation. I can see why Cyrus would fit into the Quran's narrative, yet the problem of the Cyrus Cylinder remains.

It is disputed, as you pointed out, that whether he was as generous with his conquered subjects as he claimed to be.

What is undisputed, however, is his praise of the pagan god Marduk. Cyrus was no servant of God, he was a polytheist.

The Bible is not a perfect book and it contains some mistakes. Calling Cyrus "anointed of the Lord" is a mistake, he was conquering not for God, but for Marduk. If the Ahdmadiyya messiah is claiming he was whom the Quran calls Dhul Al Qarnain, he fell for the same mistake.

To his credit, the Quran's author didn't name Dhul Al Qarnain. Yet he still embellished and repeated a fictional story that had been going around since the first century.

Good wishes to you also, may God lead us all to the Truth.
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
Peace be upon you also.
...... If the Ahdmadiyya messiah is claiming he was whom the Quran calls Dhul Al Qarnain, he fell for the same mistake.

To his credit, the Quran's author didn't name Dhul Al Qarnain. Yet he still embellished and repeated a fictional story that had been going around since the first century.

Good wishes to you also, may God lead us all to the Truth.


Peace be on you.
First a little spelling correction, if you do not mind please.

It is not Ahdmadiyya, it is Ahmadiyya [it comes from the second name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). His name was also Ahmad, so from Ahmad it is Ahmadiyya]

I feel i should repeat again from my above post that The Ahmadiyya Promised Messiah did not say any thing about Cyrus.

His later Successors [Khalifa-s] wrote so as they understood.

Here is repeat:
" Related to your specific enquiry i.e Did the Ahmadiyya Messiah claim that Cyrus the Great was Dhul Qarnain? --- A focused gist of his words about Dhul Qarnain (from several pages) and some further details are : He said:

- The Dhul Qarnain in Quran is different than Alexander as some people thought.


- Dhul Qarnain takes part from two centuries [by the very meanings].


- By the teaching of divine revelation, I am Dhul Qarnain. God the Exalted has taught me it is prophesy But meaning related to past are not denied these are about previous and this meaning are about future [i.e. himself]. Holy Quran is not mere story teller But under each of its story there is a prophecy and the story of Dhul Qarnain is prophesy for the era of Promised Messiah.


- Wall is the (metaphoric) wall of arguments, iron slabs mean his followers should make themselves well learned and steadfast, and by fire it is meant that his followers should have fire of love of God, and bronze means hearts which melt by seeing divine signs. Thus his followers should have steadfastness, get colour of fire of love of God and have melted hearts.

- He said: God has opened for me that Promised Messiah is mentioned as Dhul Qarnain. "


We have difference. No Problem.
Good wishes.
 

TG123456

Active Member
Peace be on you.
Wa alaikum salaam, my friend.

First a little spelling correction, if you do not mind please.

It is not Ahdmadiyya, it is Ahmadiyya [it comes from the second name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). His name was also Ahmad, so from Ahmad it is Ahmadiyya]
Sorry for that mistake, thank you for correcting me.
I feel i should repeat again from my above post that The Ahmadiyya Promised Messiah did not say any thing about Cyrus.

His later Successors [Khalifa-s] wrote so as they understood.

Here is repeat:
" Related to your specific enquiry i.e Did the Ahmadiyya Messiah claim that Cyrus the Great was Dhul Qarnain? --- A focused gist of his words about Dhul Qarnain (from several pages) and some further details are : He said:

- The Dhul Qarnain in Quran is different than Alexander as some people thought.


- Dhul Qarnain takes part from two centuries [by the very meanings].


- By the teaching of divine revelation, I am Dhul Qarnain. God the Exalted has taught me it is prophesy But meaning related to past are not denied these are about previous and this meaning are about future [i.e. himself]. Holy Quran is not mere story teller But under each of its story there is a prophecy and the story of Dhul Qarnain is prophesy for the era of Promised Messiah.


- Wall is the (metaphoric) wall of arguments, iron slabs mean his followers should make themselves well learned and steadfast, and by fire it is meant that his followers should have fire of love of God, and bronze means hearts which melt by seeing divine signs. Thus his followers should have steadfastness, get colour of fire of love of God and have melted hearts.

- He said: God has opened for me that Promised Messiah is mentioned as Dhul Qarnain. "
Thank you for clarifying. The error was made by a successor, not the Ahmadiyya founder. The error however in the Quran remains.

There is no such wall or nation as described therein.

We have difference. No Problem.
No problem, except that the story of Gog and Magog is a first century myth that has since been disproved given what we know about the world today. A nation of the size described by Muhammad (outnumbering Muslims 1000 to 1 or 999 to 1 depending on the hadith), and the circumstances described in the Quran, ie being cut off from humanity by a wall between two mountains, would have been located by now.

Good wishes.
You also, my friend.
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
Wa alaikum salaam, my friend.
......
......
The error however in the Quran remains.

There is no such wall or nation as described therein.

.....
.....

No problem, except that the story of Gog and Magog is a first century myth that has since been disproved given what we know about the world today. A nation of the size described by Muhammad (outnumbering Muslims 1000 to 1 or 999 to 1 depending on the hadith), and the circumstances described in the Quran, ie being cut off from humanity by a wall between two mountains, would have been located by now.


You also, my friend.

Peace be on you.
1- There is no error in Holy Quran as a Book from God has many ways to check its truth. All proved to be right.

As far as 'researches' one is sure that you know, there are many people who think and believe due to some 'research' :
-- there is no God.
-- there was no Moses.
-- there was no city Nazareth
-- Jesus was wrong etc.

For Ahmadiyya Muslim, Quran is at top, hadith came decades latter. If one find some stories with label Hadith and Quran disprove it, leave the hadith, there is no need to make such hadith centre of understanding. By way of respect, just say, we leave it to God we do not see it is fitting with Quran. If one go other way around, one fall in that classical error you are in. We extend our arm to pull you out, please accept.

Dot not you as Christian and others interpret things in your Holy Books?

If you just come to say final words 'look Quran is wrong' and keep ignoring all the things told to you. It seems that you want to say God and His representatives are wrong only the so-called research is correct - the research which says Moses and Jesus did not exist and Nazareth did not exist. Quranic debate does not mean this spirit of discussion.

Whatever your views are, please treasure them but please do not be judgemental over Quran.

[41:42] Those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them are the losers. And, truly, it is a mighty Book.

[41:43] Falsehood cannot approach it either from before or from behind it. It is a revelation from the Wise, the Praiseworthy.

Good wishes...Happy new year!
 
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TG123456

Active Member
Peace be on you.
Peace be upon you also.

1- There is no error in Holy Quran as a Book from God has many ways to check its truth. All proved to be right.
I have just demonstrated several errors contained in it. One of them is the Gog and Magog story.

As far as 'researches' one is sure that you know, there are many people who think and believe due to some 'research' :
-- there is no God.
-- there was no Moses.
-- there was no city Nazareth
-- Jesus was wrong etc.
No one can prove the nonexistence of God. One can't disprove the existence of Moses, but it can be easily shown there are mistakes in both the Biblical and Quranic accounts. Nazareth exists today. We can't prove Jesus was wrong on which issue?

For Ahmadiyya Muslim, Quran is at top, hadith came decades latter. If one find some stories with label Hadith and Quran disprove it, leave the hadith, there is no need to make such hadith centre of understanding. By way of respect, just say, we leave it to God we do not see it is fitting with Quran. If one go other way around, one fall in that classical error you are in. We extend our arm to pull you out, please accept.
I understand rejecting hadith when the Quran disproves it. What do you do with hadith and Quran verses that are disproved by science or history?

Dot not you as Christian and others interpret things in your Holy Books?
Yes.
If you just come to say final words 'look Quran is wrong' and keep ignoring all the things told to you. It seems that you want to say God and His representatives are wrong only the so-called research is correct - the research which says Moses and Jesus did not exist and Nazareth did not exist. Quranic debate does not mean this spirit of discussion.
I don't ignore anything you say, I address them. I haven't said Jesus or Moses or Nazareth did not exist.

Whatever your views are, please treasure them but please do not be judgemental over Quran.
I am not judging the Quran, I am examining. Many Muslims do the same with the Bible, it is part of debate and it is a good thing.

[41:42] Those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them are the losers. And, truly, it is a mighty Book.

[41:43] Falsehood cannot approach it either from before or from behind it. It is a revelation from the Wise, the Praiseworthy.
This is what the Quran says about itself, yes.

Good wishes...Happy new year!
Wa anta aydan :)
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The hadith mentioning someone seeing the wall that zu al qarnyan built is Daeef and in the Quran the place is not mentioned exactly in which country it is or how to reach it. We don't know what species they are whether like us or not, and also whether it was in our planet or somewhere else since this was not mentioned in the Quran as well.

When it comes to how scholars choose to interpret the story, they all tried to speculate but only Allah knows the truth. insha'Allah i'm planning to study the story more in the future in details when i have the time for it.
 

TG123456

Active Member
The hadith mentioning someone seeing the wall that zu al qarnyan built is Daeef and in the Quran the place is not mentioned exactly in which country it is or how to reach it. We don't know what species they are whether like us or not, and also whether it was in our planet or somewhere else since this was not mentioned in the Quran as well.

When it comes to how scholars choose to interpret the story, they all tried to speculate but only Allah knows the truth. insha'Allah i'm planning to study the story more in the future in details when i have the time for it.
Salaam Alaikum and thank you for letting me know about the hadith. I was unaware it is a weak one, I apologize for using it. I am a bit surprised that Ibn Qathir wouldn't have known this.

Let's just use the Quran's verse and the hadiths in Muslim and Bukhari which mention Gog and Magog outnumbering Muslims 999 to 1 or 1000 to 1 on the Day of Resurrection.

We know that a man called Dhul Al Qarnain allegedly built a wall between two mountains, to keep out a nation that is very numerous (if we consider the fact there are over a billion Muslims in the world today and these guys will outnumber you to a thousand to one... you can do the math but we will at least be in the trillions :) ) and that will be let out in the End Times after the wall crumbles.

Look at a map of the globe. Ask yourself where can you find a place that is shut off to the rest of humanity except via a pass between two mountains. Find a place that

a) Is cut off from contact with the rest of humanity except by a wall between two mountains.
b) Can fit a population of the size described by Muhammad.


BTW do you know whether or not this hadith is sahih?

Abu Hurayrah reported that the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) said, "Every day, Gog and Magog are trying to dig a way out through the barrier. When they begin to see sunlight through it, the one who is in charge of them says, 'Go back; you can carry on digging tomorrow,' and when they come back, the barrier is stronger than it was before. This will continue until their time comes and Allah wishes to send them forth. They will dig until they begin to see sunlight, then the one who is in charge of them will say, 'Go back; you can carry on digging tomorrow, inshaa Allah.' In this case he will make an exception by saying inshaa Allah, thus relating the matter to the Will of Allah. They will return on the following day, and find the hole as they left it. They will carry on digging and come out against the people. They will drink all the water, and find the hole as they left it, and the people will entrench themselves in their fortresses. Gog and Magog will fire their arrows into the sky, and they will fall back to earth with something like blood on them. Gog and Magog will say, 'We have defeated the people of earth, and overcome the people of heaven.' Then Allah will send a kind of worm in the napes of their necks, and they will be killed by it...'By Him in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, the beasts of the earth will become fat.'" (Tirmidhee, Abwaab al-Tafseer: Surat al-Kahf (Hadith 5160), 8/597-99; Ibn Maajah, Kitaab al-Fitan, (Hadith 4080), 2/1364, Ahmad, Musnad, 2/510, 511.)

Articles and FAQs about Islam, Muslims, Allah, Muhammad (pbuh), Quran, Hadith, Woman, Fiqh and Fatwa.



Nice as always discussing with you, my friend!

Take care,
TG12345
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salaam Alaikum and thank you for letting me know about the hadith. I was unaware it is a weak one, I apologize for using it. I am a bit surprised that Ibn Qathir wouldn't have known this.

He might not have been aware of it.

Let's just use the Quran's verse and the hadiths in Muslim and Bukhari which mention Gog and Magog outnumbering Muslims 999 to 1 or 1000 to 1 on the Day of Resurrection.

We know that a man called Dhul Al Qarnain allegedly built a wall between two mountains, to keep out a nation that is very numerous (if we consider the fact there are over a billion Muslims in the world today and these guys will outnumber you to a thousand to one... you can do the math but we will at least be in the trillions :) ) and that will be let out in the End Times after the wall crumbles.

Look at a map of the globe. Ask yourself where can you find a place that is shut off to the rest of humanity except via a pass between two mountains. Find a place that

a) Is cut off from contact with the rest of humanity except by a wall between two mountains.
b) Can fit a population of the size described by Muhammad.


BTW do you know whether or not this hadith is sahih?

Abu Hurayrah reported that the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) said, "Every day, Gog and Magog are trying to dig a way out through the barrier. When they begin to see sunlight through it, the one who is in charge of them says, 'Go back; you can carry on digging tomorrow,' and when they come back, the barrier is stronger than it was before. This will continue until their time comes and Allah wishes to send them forth. They will dig until they begin to see sunlight, then the one who is in charge of them will say, 'Go back; you can carry on digging tomorrow, inshaa Allah.' In this case he will make an exception by saying inshaa Allah, thus relating the matter to the Will of Allah. They will return on the following day, and find the hole as they left it. They will carry on digging and come out against the people. They will drink all the water, and find the hole as they left it, and the people will entrench themselves in their fortresses. Gog and Magog will fire their arrows into the sky, and they will fall back to earth with something like blood on them. Gog and Magog will say, 'We have defeated the people of earth, and overcome the people of heaven.' Then Allah will send a kind of worm in the napes of their necks, and they will be killed by it...'By Him in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, the beasts of the earth will become fat.'" (Tirmidhee, Abwaab al-Tafseer: Surat al-Kahf (Hadith 5160), 8/597-99; Ibn Maajah, Kitaab al-Fitan, (Hadith 4080), 2/1364, Ahmad, Musnad, 2/510, 511.)

Articles and FAQs about Islam, Muslims, Allah, Muhammad (pbuh), Quran, Hadith, Woman, Fiqh and Fatwa.

I looked it up. It's a Daeef hadith because it's Munqati`.

Sorry i know you can't speak Arabic but i'll put the link here anyway for reference:
http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?t=243350

Modern interpretation says that they already have gone out in the well known incident of the Tatars and what they have done in the Muslim world of mass killing and massacre. So, the dam is not there anymore, and they have gone out, but they will again do mischief on earth near the end of times.

Nice as always discussing with you, my friend!
Take care,
TG12345

Nice talking to you too my friend. :)
 

TG123456

Active Member
Salaam Alaikum.

He might not have been aware of it.
True, we all make mistakes. No one is perfect but Allah.

I looked it up. It's a Daeef hadith because it's Munqati`.

Sorry i know you can't speak Arabic but i'll put the link here anyway for reference:
http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?t=243350
Thank you for pointing this out. I trust you. :)

Modern interpretation says that they already have gone out in the well known incident of the Tatars and what they have done in the Muslim world of mass killing and massacre. So, the dam is not there anymore, and they have gone out, but they will again do mischief on earth near the end of times.
Hold on a second.

How can the dam have already been broken if there is a prohibition on people of destroyed cities "returning" until when the dam has been opened and they come down "from every elevation"?

21:95-97
And there is prohibition upon [the people of] a city which We have destroyed that they will [ever] return
Until when [the dam of] Gog and Magog has been opened and they, from every elevation, descend
And [when] the true promise has approached; then suddenly the eyes of those who disbelieved will be staring [in horror, while they say], "O woe to us; we had been unmindful of this; rather, we were wrongdoers."


Also, the Tatars (do you mean the Mongols), led by Hulagu Khan, did not break through any mountain wall to attack the Muslims. The Mongols under Genghis Khan crossed the Great Wall of China, which was not built by a monotheistic warrior but by polytheistic Chinese rulers, and this wall still remains.

However, the Mongols who ravaged the Muslim world and who sacked Baghdad did not cross it when they invaded, it was breached some few centuries before their ruthless assault.

Nice talking to you too my friend. :)
Wa anta aydan. :)
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salaam Alaikum.

True, we all make mistakes. No one is perfect but Allah.

Thank you for pointing this out. I trust you. :)

Hold on a second.

How can the dam have already been broken if there is a prohibition on people of destroyed cities "returning" until when the dam has been opened and they come down "from every elevation"?


Sorry, but i didn't understand. What do you mean by there is a prohibition of destroyed cities returning?
 
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