question about doing good now

[peacefulness]

hey everyone.... I needed to change my account so I reregistered.....here is a question for ya.... does the belief in an afterlife (no matter what religion) make an excuse for people to not do good in this life time? this is something I have been thinking about for the past few days.... I feel that is a person thinks that, yes there is crappy stuff in this world and to get rid of the crappy stuff you have to do/believe in X so don't really do anything important.... just do/believe in X and everything wil be ok.....
mark

 

[andyjamal]

I think that most people who believe in afterlife feel that they must do good in this life because of that belief. They wish for heaven, fear hell, and believe they can reach heaven through good deeds.

 

[Malus 12:9]

It is not intended for an excuse to do wrong. It is meant as a chance for us
to allow our sins to be forgiven by God and to start a new life with less sin.

Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Jesus was asked by the disciples how many times they needed to forgive someone. “Then Peter came and said to Him, ‘Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?’ Jesus said to him, ‘I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven’” (Matthew 18:21,22).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I believe you want to do good in life to generate positive Karma. To do wrong is to experience the wrong doing through you victims eyes, over and over, until you have fully realized all the pain that the victim went through. The pain must be realized before one's soul reaches Summerland.

 

[michel]

I think that most people who believe in afterlife feel that they must do good in this life because of that belief. They wish for heaven, fear hell, and believe they can reach heaven through good deeds.

I don't. I live my life the way I do, because I want to; if that earns me kudos in the afterlife, that is a bonus.

 

[peacefulness]

I believe you want to do good in life to generate positive Karma. To do wrong is to experience the wrong doing through you victims eyes, over and over, until you have fully realized all the pain that the victim went through. The pain must be realized before one's soul reaches Summerland.

but this is my point (although not articulated very well) positive Karma comes from good thoughts (why do you think you meditate? if you do) not through good deeds.... I mean good deeds will lead to positive karma but it's not the deeds that are really what is important (at least in the traditions that I know believe in karma). a person can sit in a monastery for their whole life and be generating "good" karma.... I just feel that if there wasn't this belief in a future life, people would focus more on the present problems.... I feel that a belief in a future life is a way of justifying doing nothing or at least nothing for the present time...

 

[timpeters]

Could be. I think you might be interested in the Calvinists on this, who, I believe, focused entirely on salvation through faith and didn't believe in good works. I'm an athiest and focus entirely on this present life...seeing as how I think the after life, well, might not exist

I do good because I think it's my moral duty. And it's rational, too. Life is just better for everyone when more people do good. It seems so bizarre when people say you need superstitious beliefs in order to do good.

Also peacefulness, I'm not sure luke meant "karma" in the Buddhist sense, just as "good for others" in generel. Words can be slippery beasts.

 

[peacefulness]

I think that most people who believe in afterlife feel that they must do good in this life because of that belief. They wish for heaven, fear hell, and believe they can reach heaven through good deeds.

and so if they are only acting because they believe they will go somewhere when they die then really their actions are not for the present time... their actions are for a future time.... and if their actions are for a future time then it really doesn't matter what happens in the present.... if your actions are good and you fail, you still get rewarded in the future.... it seems to me that a belief in future lives or a future paradice will slow real change... because people are not REALLY working for present change.

 

[john313]

Peace,
I understand what you are saying peacefulness and i agree that is what is happening. I do not agree with the idea of it though. I feel we should all do good acts just as Jesus and James tell us to do. Each person will be judged based on his/her acts. People take what Paul said in the new testament(being saved by grace, not by acts lest any man should boast) to mean we do not need good deeds to be saved, this is an incorrect interpretation. If we do not do good, or we do evil, then we will have to spend more time "evolving" our spirit/soul on earth in the next life(s). Our spirit will be reborn into new bodies over and over until we do righteous acts. It is essential to do as many good deeds as possible now so we can evolve and go to the next level. That is, if we believe those who have had "near death experiences" and those who talk about past lives and time in between lives under hypnosis(from the studies i have read on it). Meditation is good, positive thinking is fantastic, but without good works, evil will always triumph as long as it exists.

 

[timpeters]

As Bob Marley said in "Get Up, Stand Up:

"Most people think,
Great God will come from the skies,
Take away everything
And make everybody feel high.
But if you know what life is worth,
You will look for yours on earth:
And now you see the light,
You stand up for your rights."

Heh. Maybe a bit too much quoting, but it works.

 

[peacefulness]

. If we do not do good, or we do evil, then we will have to spend more time "evolving" our spirit/soul on earth in the next life(s). Our spirit will be reborn into new bodies over and over until we do righteous acts. It is essential to do as many good deeds as possible now so we can evolve and go to the next level.

but that is what I am saying… it’s this idea that if we do good in this life we will be rewarded in a future life…. So it really doesn’t matter the outcome of the action…. A person who does an action for this life is focused on the outcome… so if the outcome is negative, then they will work harder to create a positive outcome… where is if you are doing the action for a future life and if the end is negative, it’s really not that important. What really matters is that you did the action so that you can get into heaven or a good future life… I just see that a person who is thinking just of this life will have a deeper drive for change because they are focusing on the actual outcome… I’m not saying that a person who believes in future lives doesn’t care about the end result. I’m just saying that I see it being of less important then to the person who is acting for just this life…. So if people acted more for just this life I believe there would be less conflict and more peace.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

a person can sit in a monastery for their whole life and be generating "good" karma

Only deeds can generate karma, whether it be good or bad.
I don't believe negative or positive karma generated from deeds carries on from life to life. The whole point to living a life is to experience something new. You couldn't fully do this if past life issues are constantly effecting your life.
I do good now because I know I should. Yet that won't stop me from doing something wrong if a situation looks bad enough. I know fully I will suffer the consiquences, but oh well.

 

[john313]

but that is what I am saying… it’s this idea that if we do good in this life we will be rewarded in a future life…. So it really doesn’t matter the outcome of the action…. A person who does an action for this life is focused on the outcome… so if the outcome is negative, then they will work harder to create a positive outcome… where is if you are doing the action for a future life and if the end is negative, it’s really not that important. What really matters is that you did the action so that you can get into heaven or a good future life… I just see that a person who is thinking just of this life will have a deeper drive for change because they are focusing on the actual outcome… I’m not saying that a person who believes in future lives doesn’t care about the end result. I’m just saying that I see it being of less important then to the person who is acting for just this life…. So if people acted more for just this life I believe there would be less conflict and more peace.

I think people acting for this life is what is causing problems, with their evil deeds and evil intentions though. Greed is the drive behind many evil things.
I'm not sure what you are saying about outcomes not being important to someone concerned about heaven or the next life. could you give me an example?
I think all judgement will be based on intent rather than outcome. but most of the time outcome is the same as intent. If someone is truly concerned(not a hypocrit) with good deeds for the next life, they will do whatever they can to make sure there are good results for their actions. I believe people acting for this life tend to be more self centered, greedy, and materialistic. Of course this is a generalization and by no means includes all individuals.
The prophets were the best of men with the best of character and did the best of deeds with the best of results, they did not live for whatever life they were living at the time.

 

[andyjamal]

[

QUOTE=michel]I don't. I live my life the way I do, because I want to; if that earns me kudos in the afterlife, that is a bonus.

Yeah, I, actually, believe that we should do good because we love God rather than out of concern for the afterlife; but, if you believe in an afterlife, it is definitely an added incentive.

 

[Draka]

Okay, I believe in reincarnation and karma. Here's how I view this subject. I believe that our current lives are full of many tests. Tests to see how we handle something, tests to find the good in us, tests to see what kind of person we become and how worthy we are. Every test/situation/problem we face is something that the choices and outcomes of which is what will determine our continuing path after this incarnation. So the outcomes are important, but even if we made a wrong choice and get the wrong outcome it is the point that we take the hard earned lesson away from it. Wisdom only comes with mistakes. If you always do the right thing how can you say you have learned anything and weren't just lucky?

 

[peacefulness]

I think people acting for this life is what is causing problems, with their evil deeds and evil intentions though. Greed is the drive behind many evil things.

I'm not sure what you are saying about outcomes not being important to someone concerned about heaven or the next life. could you give me an example?

I think all judgement will be based on intent rather than outcome. but most of the time outcome is the same as intent. If someone is truly concerned(not a hypocrit) with good deeds for the next life, they will do whatever they can to make sure there are good results for their actions. I believe people acting for this life tend to be more self centered, greedy, and materialistic. Of course this is a generalization and by no means includes all individuals.

The prophets were the best of men with the best of character and did the best of deeds with the best of results, they did not live for whatever life they were living at the time.

"I'm not sure what you are saying about outcomes not being important to someone concerned about heaven or the next life. could you give me an example?"



well lets say we take two individuals that are both good people (in the general sense). one is a Christian and the other is an atheist. they both are in a situation to help someone, say by giving money to someone who needs it. the Christian gives the money and feels that they did something good and hopes that they will get good with God. the Atheist gives the money and just feels good. so what if the person who the money was given goes and spends it on drugs. for some reason it seems to be that the Atheist would care more what the person actually did with the money, then the Christian. the Christian has this thought in the back of there mind that "as long as I tried, God will understand" or something like that. Where the Atheist would feel more like well ****, the money didn't go to any good use, at all. it just seems to me that a person who believes in a God and in Heaven will be a little bit more preoccupied with the motive of giving and not the outcome then the Atheist. I hope this makes sense.



"I think all judgment will be based on intent rather than outcome. but most of the time outcome is the same as intent. If someone is truly concerned (not a hypocrite) with good deeds for the next life, they will do whatever they can to make sure there are good results for their actions."



why will all judgment "be based on intent rather than outcome." I am more concerned with the end result. the reason why a person does something it not important for me... if a person helps someone out of kindness or helps someone out of selfishness; I don't care. as long as they are actually helping the person. if the reason a person gives someone money is because they want to feel good or because they really want to help means nothing to me... the person is still being helped. in any case, I do not see how this has anything to do with my original point. the fact that a person who does good deeds because the think they will get to heaven is thinking less about the end result then a person who does not believe in Heaven.



"The prophets were the best of men with the best of character and did the best of deeds with the best of results, they did not live for whatever life they were living at the time."



but what did they really do for people? did they get rid of poverty? or stop a war or stop slavery? except for telling people that there ideas are better then others, they really didn't do anything good for people. at least nothing that can be seen in reality.



anyway, I am sorry if my answer is kinda choppy. I am writing very fast and have not time to correct it. Peace - mark

 

[peacefulness]

Okay, I believe in reincarnation and karma. Here's how I view this subject. I believe that our current lives are full of many tests. Tests to see how we handle something, tests to find the good in us, tests to see what kind of person we become and how worthy we are. Every test/situation/problem we face is something that the choices and outcomes of which is what will determine our continuing path after this incarnation. So the outcomes are important, but even if we made a wrong choice and get the wrong outcome it is the point that we take the hard earned lesson away from it. Wisdom only comes with mistakes. If you always do the right thing how can you say you have learned anything and weren't just lucky?

I understand what you are saying. however it seems to me that a belief in karma would still have a person thinking about the motive more then the result... how does one get good karma? by having good intensions... the result does enhance the karmic effect but the motivation is a lot stronger. and therefore if the idea of karma wasn't there, the person would be less occupied with the motivation and more interested in the result...

 

[Draka]

not necessarily so. Karma is kind of like the points we get for completing our tests successfully. Yes, your intentions are important...but if your life and afterlife are important to you then you will do everything you can to follow through to the absolute utmost of your ability...for that is all you can do as a human. We are not necessarily always in the control of whatever situation we are in...so no matter how we strive for a particular outcome it may not come out that way...that is no reflection on us as if we did not give it our all. sometimes we are meant to fail...to learn something out of it all. If we didn't then what is the use in it all?