Puranic and/or non-tantric Shaivism/Skaktism today?

[User14]

I would say Ramakrishna was definitely Hindu but the Ramakrishna Order is not exclusively Hindu. Ramakrishna's later biographers, trying to make him more continuous with Vivekananda, tried to make it look like he emphasized universalism more than he actually did.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Aup, I believe is Hindu first, atheist second.

Hindu first, advaitist second, therefore atheist, third.

I have no idea where that line is. Did Ramakrishna cross it? If not, I'm cool with the gang.

IMHO, he crossed it. When he was a Muslim or a Christian, he was not a Hindu. I have just read the Muslim and Christian books to find out without needing to be one even for a moment (and basically not impressed - as I am with Buddha. But Buddha is my own).

 

[Chakra]

Hey @User14 , I'm glad that you decided to join the forum! I've read through most of the responses and all of them come from very knowledgeable Hindus so definitely consider them. However, I just want to pitch in my thoughts without intentionally repeating information/opinions. Keep in mind that while I may not be a Shaiva, I have looked into Shaivism and Smartism in quite some detail.

Above all else, I'm emotionally drawn to the Goddess, particularly in the form of Parvati. That's the main reason I became interested in Indian religion in the first place. My mind also feels drawn to Lord Shiva, and the idea that Shiva represents the inactive, transcendent aspect of God and his consort represents God's immanent, material aspect fits quite well with theological ideas I've had for a long time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but essentially, you accept that there is a dichotomy between nirguna brahman and saguna brahman, yes?

However, I'm reluctant to fully embrace the Tantras and the Agamas, at least at this present moment. I won't go into all the reasons why. I'm somewhat turned off by esotericism, and I prefer bhakti and personal, emotional devotion to rituals and practices designed to give me spiritual or occult "powers."

Well, as far as I know, the Shakta agamas are primarily focused on rejecting the male-female duality and asserting the existence of a primordial unity of which Shiva and Shakti are the two manifestations. I'm not sure where kundalini and chakras show up, but I hope someone else can clarify.

But suffice it to say, I'm more like a Vaishnava in my religious outlook. I'm mostly socially and culturally conservative

You may find that several Shaktas and Shaivas are culturally conservative as well, especially if the culture is rooted in South India.

Yet...Vishnu and his avatars have not captured my heart and mind the way Parvati and Shiva have. None of the consorts of Vishnu or his avatars produce in me the distinct feeling of childlike love for the Mother the way Parvati does. Shiva seems to me to be a better representation of the transcendent, unmanifest Divine than Vishnu.

A question for you: do you enjoy reading devotional pastimes of Shiva in his personal form? Does Parvati symbolize the personal aspect of God and Shiva the impersonal?

Didn't Shiva and Shakti devotion exist in the Puranic period before most of the Tantras were written? If I could be anything, I would be a non-tantric, Puranic-style Shiva/Parvati bhakta.

Well, most Shaiva and Shakta schools do not accept the Puranas, so I would be surprised if you found an authentic school that is puranic in its core. There are a set of Puranas that focus on Shiva and his heroic deeds, if you are interested in knowing.

I know it would be possible to be that......anything's possible, of course......but I'm afraid that I won't meet many other people like that. At least, there don't seem be many organized groups in that vein. And I long for a sense of community with devotees of a similar mindset.

It's difficult finding a community anywhere in the West (I'm assuming that you are living in a western country) but I think that your views align with a "normal" Hindu's. In the meantime, come stay with us for a while!

I'm not sure if I would fit in with the Smartas either. While I like that they value the Puranas, I'm not interested in only worshipping Shiva and Parvati as my "favorite" deities...they're more than just my personal favorites; I view them as the best ways to imagine God and to produce devotion.

As @SomeRandom has already stated, Smartas are free to wish multiple deities in the panchayatana pantheon (Vishnu, Shiva, Shakti, Surya, Ganesha). I don't see how you can't call yourself a Smarta.

Like I said, I know it's perfectly possible for me to follow the path I have in mind. I guess I just don't want to walk the path alone....are there any organized groups/sub-sects/schools of Shaivas and/or Shaktas who have an outlook similar to mine, that still survive today?

Like several other people have already stated, a lot of Hindus don't actually have a specific tradition they follow. They may just describe themselves as a Shiva-bhakta or Vishnu-bhakta, but I'd say a small percentage of Hindus would explicitly mention organized schools such as Shaiva Siddhanta or Shri Vaishnavism.

Millions of people would share your thoughts on Shiva/Shakti....it's just that they don't bother themselves with a particular label because in their minds, there is no need. I suggest you perhaps start off with devotional poetry from Shakta/Shaiva saints (you should probably ask @Vinayaka ,@Aupmanyav , and @Bhadr for help on that) and then, if you get attracted to the philosophy of Hinduism, move onto Upanishads and Puranas.

Good luck!

 

[User14]

"childlike love for the Mother the way Parvati does"

"I prefer bhakti and personal, emotional devotion to rituals and practices"

... There is a Saiva bhakti rasa in the sect of Murugan, Subrahmanya, Kumara (viz Shiva's son Who holds the Vel) ... you might explore this.

http://murugan.org/

Thanks for this link! This website is a treasure trove of information. It sent me down a rabbit hole of researching South Indian bhakti towards deities other than Vishnu or Shiva.

It seems like Shaktism in Bengal was, for most of its history, primarily tantric and not very devotional. It seems to have only started to become devotional in the 18th century with poets like Ramprasad. But the bhakti towards the Goddess in Bengal is still heavily influenced by the tantrism it only recently grew out of.

In South India, although the form of Shaktism most commonly written about is the very tantric and esoteric Sri Vidya tradition, there seems to be a parallel Shakta tradition that is not frequently written about. The parallel tradition seems mostly devotional, exoteric, and rooted more in songs, poems and saint stories than tantric rituals.

Is this correct? If so, where can I read more about this South Indian devotional Shakta tradition? Like I said, there doesn't seem to be much information out there about it.

 

[User14]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but essentially, you accept that there is a dichotomy between nirguna brahman and sagunabrahman, yes?

Yes, essentially. To me, Shiva seems to be a good representation of nigurna brahman and Shakti seems to be a good representation of saguna brahman. I don't see Shakti so much as the power of Shiva- I see her more as God manifested as the material world, and Shiva is God unmanifested, wholly transcendent, and absolute in everything except goodness. I believe that God-as-manifested-reality, by virtue of being limited, is actually able to acquire forms of goodness that can only exist in the presence of limitations. Something the unmanifested aspect of God cannot do on his own because he possesses no other limitations.

You may find that several Shaktas and Shaivas are culturally conservative as well, especially if the culture is rooted in South India.

There do seem to be many Shaktas and Shaivas of that conservative type in South Indian traditions. I hope to learn more about them.

A question for you: do you enjoy reading devotional pastimes of Shiva in his personal form?

I do, but the personal form
of Parvati appeals to me somewhat more than Shiva. Shiva is more of an intellectual interest. Parvati produces emotional satisfaction, Shiva produces mental satisfaction.

Does Parvati symbolizethe personal aspect of God and Shivathe impersonal?

Yes, exactly.

I suggest you perhaps start off with devotional poetry from Shakta/Shaiva saints(you should probably ask

@Vinayaka ,

@Aupmanyav , and

@Bhadr for help on that) and then, if you get attracted to the philosophy of Hinduism, then move onto Upanishads and Puranas

Thank you! that is my plan. Devotional poetry, particularly of the Shakta type, is currently my favorite thing to read.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It seems like Shaktism in Bengal was, for most of its history, primarily tantric and not very devotional. It seems to have only started to become devotional in the 18th century with poets like Ramprasad. .. The parallel tradition seems mostly devotional, exoteric, and rooted more in songs, poems and saint stories than tantric rituals.

IMHO, except for Bengal, tantric Shaktism makes only a small percentage everywhere else in India. The devotional Shaktas are village Hindus with nothing much to report about them. They don't make headlines.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but essentially, you accept that there is a dichotomy between nirguna brahman and saguna brahman, yes?

Though your question was for User14, allow me to interject. How can there be two when there is no second. It is 'Nirguna' all through (including yourself and myself, if we look closely). The rest is all illusion. No dichotomy.

 

[Vinayaka]

User 14, if you can give us your location, maybe one of us can recommend a temple you could go to. In every day Hinduism, it isn't much about the philosophy. Most Hindus would have no idea about nigurna or saguna Brahman. If it came up in a conversation, you'd get a 'What???" dumbfounded look. Most people just want to sit or stand in front of God in some form, and pray, or just feel the presence, if they can.

As far as 'tantric' goes, before there is discussion much, a definition is needed. In general terms tantra means 'method' . However, its more common understanding relates more to esoterics or sexuality. So when someone here mentions, 'tantra' its good to know or ask what they're talking about more specifically.

 

[Bhadr]

As far as 'tantric' goes, before there is discussion much, a definition is needed. In general terms tantra means 'method' . However, its more common understanding relates more to esoterics or sexuality. So when someone here mentions, 'tantra' its good to know or ask what they're talking about more specifically.

Yes,the word has so many meanings and the meaning differs based on the context.Saiva Agamas are also known as Greater Tantras.But the explanation of Tantra given in the Agamas is very different from what is generally thought and has nothing to do with some concepts.The Agamas are pure,auspicious,full of nectarine wisdom and for the well being of all and not about other stuff associated with Tantras(the general assumptions seen nowadays).As it may result in unnecessary confusion and misunderstanding I refrain from using the word Tantra as a synonym for Saiva Agama.
.

 

[DeviChaaya]

Namaste everyone! JAI MATA DI!

I bow at Mother's feet; my deepest desire is to be Her hand maiden. Let me sit at Her lotus feet like Nandi always sits before Shiva. I yearn for Mother's glance, She is all I care for; go away, Govinda, tend to your herd and not to me, go dance somewhere else Nataraja, it is Mother's lasya dance I crave to see, not your tandava.

Mother, You hear me crying out 'Amma! Amma!' and You come to me. Like a child I want to curl up in Your lap and lay my head against Your breast. My heart breaks when You must tend to something else and I go back to crying 'Mata! Mataaaaa!' until You return.

You'd think I'd have replied before now but I have not been able to put much into words lately. From what I have seen most devotion to Ma is bhakti with very little reliance on tantra or agamas. Agamas and tantra are for more esoteric minded folk but simple bhakti can be practiced by anyone.

Like you, @User14, I am drawn to Parvati. She calls to me; Her gaze is so soft and loving and She has never judged. I bow down at Uma's feet. I place Uma's feet upon my head and beg Her to accept my love for Her as a child loves her earthly Mother. I yearn for Ma's darshan deep in my soul and while I can forget about Her for a little while my mind is always brought back to Her feet.

Read the Devi Bhagavatam; it is beautiful shows us many of Ma's forms. Revel in Her side-long glance at any temple you can attend. When I attend my local Hare Krishna temple it is not Krishna I see but Kali gazing out at me with flute raised to Her lips, and Shiva by Her side, immersed in the bliss of Divine Love.

 

[Aupmanyav]

@ Devichaya, do you need to beg a mother for love? A mother's love is always there for her children. No doubts, be confident, like I am.

 

[DeviChaaya]

@ Devichaya, do you need to beg a mother for love? A mother's love is always there for her children. No doubts, be confident, like I am.

Because sometimes I am a very naughty child and Ma disciplines me. I beg for Her attention always, even when She is busy with defeating demons I am there in the background crying because She is busy! But then, when She is done and She pulls me back into Her lap the bliss is divine.

 

[User14]

Yes,the word has so many meanings and the meaning differs based on the context.Saiva Agamas are also known as Greater Tantras.But the explanation of Tantra given in the Agamas is very different from what is generally thought and has nothing to do with some concepts.The Agamas are pure,auspicious,full of nectarine wisdom and for the well being of all and not about other stuff associated with Tantras(the general assumptions seen nowadays).As it may result in unnecessary confusion and misunderstanding I refrain from using the word Tantra as a synonym for Saiva Agama.
.

I think what I mean by tantra in this thread is religious traditions that are characterized more by esoteric practices designed to awaken spiritual powers, than by exoteric devotion to a personal deity. This doesn't include everything in the Tamtras and Agamas themselves.

Namaste everyone! JAI MATA DI!

I bow at Mother's feet; my deepest desire is to be Her hand maiden. Let me sit at Her lotus feet like Nandi always sits before Shiva. I yearn for Mother's glance, She is all I care for; go away, Govinda, tend to your herd and not to me, go dance somewhere else Nataraja, it is Mother's lasya dance I crave to see, not your tandava.

Mother, You hear me crying out 'Amma! Amma!' and You come to me. Like a child I want to curl up in Your lap and lay my head against Your breast. My heart breaks when You must tend to something else and I go back to crying 'Mata! Mataaaaa!' until You return.

Like you, @User14, I am drawn to Parvati. She calls to me; Her gaze is so soft and loving and She has never judged. I bow down at Uma's feet. I place Uma's feet upon my head and beg Her to accept my love for Her as a child loves her earthly Mother. I yearn for Ma's darshan deep in my soul and while I can forget about Her for a little while my mind is always brought back to Her feet.

I feel the same way! It's hard for me to go very long without thinking about Her. The one thing that frustrates me is that I never seem to dream about Her (at least not that I remember), even though I dream about other religious things all the time. Maybe it is Her play that causes Her to allude me in dreams.

@ Devichaya, do you need to beg a mother for love? A mother's love is always there for her children. No doubts, be confident, like I am.

The mood of a spurned child who has to beg for the Mother's attention (or at least, feels like he has to beg) comes up very often in Shakta devotional poetry. Ramakrishna said this:

With a yearning heart persist in your demands on Her. The child holds to the skirt of its mother and begs a penny of her to buy a kite. Perhaps the mother is gossiping with her friends. At firsts she refuses to give the penny and says to the child: “No, you can’t have it. Your daddy has asked me not to give you money. When he comes home I’ll ask him about it. You will get into trouble if you play with a kite now.” The child begins to cry and will not give up his demand. Then the mother says to her friends: “Excuse me a moment. Let me pacify this child.” Immediately she unlocks the cash box with a click and throws the child a penny.

Ramakrishna also compared the Mother seemingly hiding herself from her devotee to a game between Mother and child. The child might be worried for a while but it doesn't matter much when the Mother finally reveals her face!

I've also read something like this: you have to beg and make yourself utterly dependent for God to reach down and guide you, not because God must be propitiated, but because God won't guide someone who doesn't look like he needs guidance. Like how you wouldn't think it necessary to guide an adult to their seat, but you would guide a child because a child can't find his way on his own.

 

[Chakra]

. Though your question was for User14, allow me to interject. How can there be two when there is no second. It is 'Nirguna' all through (including yourself and myself, if we look closely). The rest is all illusion. No dichotomy.

Well we don't want to confuse him now do we?

 

[User14]

Well we don't want to confuse him now do we?

I'm definitely not versed enough in Vedanta to say whether there's a true duality or not. I'm happy admitting that the dichotomy between manifested and unmanifested only exists in the human imagination.

 

[Chakra]

I'm definitely not versed enough in Vedanta to say whether there's a true duality or not. I'm happy admitting that the dichotomy between manifested and unmanifested only exists in the human imagination.

I was just joking around with Aup, but it is definitely a puzzling concept. I'm glad you have an open mind though!

If you want to look at Indian philosophy, here is a set of podcasts that was found by @sayak83 : http://historyofphilosophy.net/india

 

[Aupmanyav]

The one thing that frustrates me is that I never seem to dream about Her (at least not that I remember), even though I dream about other religious things all the time. Maybe it is Her play that causes Her to allude me in dreams.

Ramakrishna also compared the Mother seemingly hiding herself from her devotee to a game between Mother and child. The child might be worried for a while but it doesn't matter much when the Mother finally reveals her face!

I've also read something like this: you have to beg and make yourself utterly dependent for God to reach down and guide you, not because God must be propitiated, but because God won't guide someone who doesn't look like he needs guidance.

If you have her with you all the time that you are awake, it is immaterial if she does not come in your dreams. Let other things happen in your dreams.

If he felt like that I would say, Ramakrishna was not a true devotee. Shiva and the Mother are besides me right now, they are always with me, they never leave me, nor do Rama and Krishna. And I am an atheist, a strong atheist at that. No, I am not a beggar. I know my place is with them, just next to Kartikeya and Ganesha. Why should anybody ever feel separated from his/her deities?

But then, my views are my views. Others will have their own views. There are Gopis pining for Krishna. Bhava (emotions, different emotions with different people).

 

[Tabu]

Wonderful people here , Namaste .
Welcome to my Gallery
http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...s-worth-a-thousand-words.193062/#post-4976407
I have put on display some pictures , have a look and feel free to ask any question.
@Aupmanyav , Aupji you are invited to inaugurate by cutting the ribbon.

 

[Shrew]

In South India, although the form of Shaktism most commonly written about is the very tantric and esoteric Sri Vidya tradition, there seems to be a parallel Shakta tradition that is not frequently written about. The parallel tradition seems mostly devotional, exoteric, and rooted more in songs, poems and saint stories than tantric rituals.

Is this correct? If so, where can I read more about this South Indian devotional Shakta tradition? Like I said, there doesn't seem to be much information out there about it.

Perhaps this could interest you.

Mother exists forever and includes everything within herself.
She who is everything and everywhere is Mother.
It is not correct to say Mother of the Universe.
The Universe itself is the Mother

She who has no birth or death, and yet is the cause of all births and deaths, is Mother.
Long ago I begot and reared all of you; now I have revealed myself.
The Perfection of the piece of sculpture is the product of the (sculptor's) hammer blows .
You were all born of me, and I gave you to your mothers to bring up.

link 1
link 2
There is also a book about Her.
And another book.

 

[Aupmanyav]

@Aupmanyav , Aupji you are invited to inaugurate by cutting the ribbon.

Sorry, Tabu. I do not go out of my fold. Kindly ask Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa to do the honor.

Perhaps this could interest you.

Personality cults. Just like the above.

 

[Tabu]

Sorry, Tabu. I do not go out of my fold. Kindly ask Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa to do the honor

Comfort Zone ? can be crossed for Hooris .
I am going off topic again ( seems only me ) , I will PM you soon , could possibly find a reincarnation of Ramakrishna Paramahansa for the inauguration.
Love you all , Moving to a new home , will peek it sometimes, Bye