Proto-Indo-European Polytheism Reconstruction

[EyeofOdin]

I love reconstruction of PIE language and religion. Being an Asatru Heathen, I also deeply enjoy finding new things about the origins of beliefs about the gods, ancestors and practices of my folk. To know that it, central gods and goddesses and important myths attached to them, is a continuation going back over 40,000 years is very cool indeed.

I wanted to start a discussion of Proto-Indo-European reconstruction, to see what anyone else may know. Given that polytheism isn't very popular, and linguistic and mythological reconstruction isn't popular either, it'd be nice to see what others have found through their digging.

Please note I'm going to write the names in a way which everyone can read and pronounce LOL. So I'm going to add in some vowels when reconstruction didn't leave any. Even though the scholars know, not everyone does

I've found sample of the pantheon of reconstructed deities and some of the mythology. All of them are central deities of course, as it's extremely difficult to trace back nobody's-heard-of-you, goddess of who-cares.

Various gods can be tricky, as a pair of deities from different cultures can have very similar attributes, but the names are completely different (example being Lugus and Odin). I feel that the PIE, although one title would've been most popular, others were used to invoke different aspects or characteristics of the deity in incantations or poetry. This is still a practice in most recent pagan peoples, such as Germanic peoples with Thor. He was called One who thunders from his original name, Atli meaning "the terrible", Véurr meaning "sanctifier" and others.

These are the archetypes which one can say more confidently were believed by the PIE people.

There seems to be multiple races of gods. At least two were probably in PIE worldview. A Dyeus is a celestial god while an Ansu was either a spirit or god with an unclear sphere of influence, maybe of nature. This comes from the mythology of the Germanic Aesir and Vanir and Hellenic Olympians and Titans.

Djews Pater- Chieftain god of the sky. He's reconstruction is derived from Zeus, Tyr, Jupiter, Dyaus Pita, Dispater as well as others. His name literally means "Sky Father" or "Heavenly Father".

Pletawi Mater or Dehghom- Mother goddess of the Earth and fertility. She may or may not have been betrothed to Djews Pater, and more likely not for the later PIEans. She is reconstructed from Pirthivi, Dhe Mote, Mati Zjemla and possibly Demeter.

Perkwunos- God of thunder and lightning. Known from Perkunas and Perun. Another name contains the fragment tar. I personally think the best reconstruction of the name of him is Taranos (any of the As could be Os though), from Proto Germanic Thunraz (also known as Thor), Proto-Celtic Toranos and Vedic Indra.

Heusos or Ausos- Goddess of the dawn. She's the daughter of Djews Pater. From Germanic Eostra, Hellenic Eos, Roman Aurora and Indian Ushas. There's a possibility she also is the origin of Vesta.

Based on the many different nature spirits among PIE cultures like Germ. Dwarves or Elves, Gk Satyrs or Nymphs and Vedic Aspara, it's very likely that there was at least one clan of spirits.

Cosmic Sperpent Either serpent or dragon is also likely. Reconstruction is based on Germ Jormungand, Gk Typhon, Hydra and Python and Hindu Vrtra.

World Tree- The idea of a world tree is present in Vedic, Norse and Celtic mythologies, but seems to be lost in Greco-Roman Lore.

Very likely there was also at least a pair of divine twins, but what they were or how many is unclear.

There are other other proposed deities but it's difficult to say the accuracy of the reconstruction, from their name to existence.

Hepom Nepots- A sea or water god. Greek Neptune, Vedic Apam Napat and Germanic Njord.

Welnos- Sometimes said to be a sky god (Greek Ouranos) or a pastoral deity, from gods of wealth or glory like Slavic Veles, Germanic Ullr.

Three fate goddesses are also hypothesized, from Germanic Norns and Greek Moirai. They weave a thread, which is supposed to represent fate or destiny.

Pehuson- Pastoral god or god of the earth ( Gk Pan, Italic Faunus)

Of the divine twins, I found three, maybe having the same origin, maybe not.

Yemos and Mannus- Brothers who either are the first mortals or cosmological gods who are the first to die. Mannus seems to be the father of humanity (Germanic Mannus, Vedic Manu) while Yemos (Germanic Ymir and Vedic Yama) seems to have some sort of role in cosmology or establishing order. If mortals, they seem to become gods of some sort after their death. Yemos would probably be the god of death or lord of the underworld while Mannus is an ascended ancestral master of some sorts.

Sawul and Menots- Goddess and God of the Sun and Moon, who carried it across the sky on their chariot. Sawul is from Gremanic Sowol, Italic Sol, Greek Helios and Vedic Surya. Menots is from Germanic Monne, Greek Mene and Lithuanian Meno.

Horse Twins- Maybe gods, maybe not, but at least spirits who accompany Sawul and tell her stories to keep her company. One is a horse and the other is a god or spirit. PIEans probably observed Venus and made the myth out of that. Reconstructed from Old English Hengist and Horsa and Greco-Roman Castor and Pollux.

Giants- A race of large, anthropomorphic beings, or at least beings or are giant like were possibly present in PIE religion and worldview. Sometimes they have relations with the gods, such as Odin and Jord bearing Thor or Polyphemos being the son of Poseidon. Notable races of giants are Jotunnar, Ispolini, Cyclopes and Daityas from Germanic, Bulgarian, Greek and Vedic Lore.

I've been wanting to find the origins of Germanic Odin and Loki for a while. After doing some digging, here's what I've found.

Odin seems to have no transcultural linguistic connections. I wondered how a deity so popular among ALL Germanic tribes could only be among them. Gods are rarely just invented, and Odin couldn't have been a minor deity. How can a "nobody's-heard-of-you" deity of "who-cares" all of a sudden become the king of Asgard, replacing Tiwaz (Proto-Germanic Dyews Pater)?

I saw that he is also very much like Celtic Lugus, but his name seems to have some relationship to Loki. As a heathen, I can say from honoring both of these deities, they are very similar. From time to time, I consider The Wise One to be a bit mischievous. At that note, I think that The Trickster has some wisdom to offer. It's worth noting that Loki's been described as the "hypostasis of Odin".

I'm not sure of the PIE name of the trickster god associated with Lugus and Loki, maybe something like Lugios. I do know that there is a pre-Proto-Germanic reconstruction. It's something to the effect of Watunos, derived from the Proto-Celtic word Watis, meaning priest. This appears to be a title given to a deity strongly associated with the Celtic Lugus. I think that scholars should consider the possibility that Loki and Odin started out as the same deity, but a title applied to that deity, along with the indigenous name, began to be worshipped as a separate god. Until I find another term, I'll call the PIE origin of this deity Lugios.

It's also theorized that Dionysos has origins in Perkwunos. As Dyews Pater started to be called Zeus Pater by the Greeks and began to assume the position as wielder of lightning, Perkwunos lost his name, as it means "striker [of lightning]". After he lost his role as god of lightning, he was just called Dionysos, meaning either "Zeus of Mount Nysa" or "Zeus of the trees". It's worth noting that Dionysos is speculated to have similar origins with Indra, because of a Vedic drink sacred to him.

Freyja and Frigga are sometimes thought to be originally the same goddess for the Proto-Germanic people, instead of being the two Fraujon and Frijjo. The argument against says that Frigga is probably cognate to Vedic priya, meaning beloved, while Freyja seems to be related to the Latin verb "progenere" meaning "to produce" and is derived from the PIE verb "gehn" meaning "to produce" or "to give birth to". This explains why Frigga is a goddess of love, but a more Cosmic Mother love, and while Freyja is too, she's not a motherly goddess but a sensual goddess of fertility and sexuality.

So that's it! everything I know about PIE reconstruction! That and I found something that says that all PIE deities are really just different forms or were at first different names of a central pantheon of five gods and goddesses, but that's WAAY too theoretical!! We're probably never going to know what's before this time period sadly What've you guys found?

 

[Poeticus]

What've you guys found?

Here's a reading that might come in handy: ... Aryan Idols: Indo-European Mythology as Ideology and Science by Stefan Arvidsson.

As per the PIE-related conjecture:

As a Hindu polytheist; if I'm going to tour, say, Lithuania, I'm going to do my best to seek local assistance in order to offer my gratitudes to the local folk-religionists and their practices and the spirits and powers that reside therein (in regards to the folk-pagan practices of historical Lithuania which have, fortunately, still somewhat survived the brutal Teutonic Knight invasions and subsequent forced conversions). And I'll do this likewise with any other country that has such a strong tradition.

When Megasthenes travelled to the Mauryan court, he noticed that the Indians he encountered worshipped various deities that he correlated with Heracles and Dionysus (Krishna and Indra, respectively). He did not see different gods, or even "false gods" for that matter. Instead, he saw similar gods without the usual Greek (Hellenic) flavor. Likewise, if I travelled back in time and took a quick stroll through the streets of, say, Ancient Rome, I would see the worship of Durga and various other Devi-s when I encounter altars dedicated to various Roman goddesses. In fact, the Romans, themselves, had altars dedicated to the Unknown Gods---deities they personally had not yet encountered but to whom the worshippers were desirous to offer their placations.​

tl;dr: PIE-related conjecture is often fascinating, but it doesn't really provide the indigenous perspectives---the myriad and highly pluralistic views of the pagan mind. Finding correlations between gods here and there and reconstructing a pantheon of the yesteryears, from which we really have no evidence that is worth of a heavy substance, takes away the investment which can be put into bettering the polytheistic communities that we already have and assisting various folks to reconnect with a pantheon that is more familiar to their socio-cultural location, whether it's relative or distant.

 

[Aupmanyav]

To help you with your search:
The twin Gods in Hinduism are Ashwins Ashvins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Perkwunos is Parjanya in Hinduism, Indra at one time was that Parjanya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

 

[EyeofOdin]

Here's a reading that might come in handy: ... Aryan Idols: Indo-European Mythology as Ideology and Science by Stefan Arvidsson.

As per the PIE-related conjecture:

As a Hindu polytheist; if I'm going to tour, say, Lithuania, I'm going to do my best to seek local assistance in order to offer my gratitudes to the local folk-religionists and their practices and the spirits and powers that reside therein (in regards to the folk-pagan practices of historical Lithuania which have, fortunately, still somewhat survived the brutal Teutonic Knight invasions and subsequent forced conversions). And I'll do this likewise with any other country that has such a strong tradition.

When Megasthenes travelled to the Mauryan court, he noticed that the Indians he encountered worshipped various deities that he correlated with Heracles and Dionysus (Krishna and Indra, respectively). He did not see different gods, or even "false gods" for that matter. Instead, he saw similar gods without the usual Greek (Hellenic) flavor. Likewise, if I travelled back in time and took a quick stroll through the streets of, say, Ancient Rome, I would see the worship of Durga and various other Devi-s when I encounter altars dedicated to various Roman goddesses. In fact, the Romans, themselves, had altars dedicated to the Unknown Gods---deities they personally had not yet encountered but to whom the worshippers were desirous to offer their placations.​

tl;dr: PIE-related conjecture is often fascinating, but it doesn't really provide the indigenous perspectives---the myriad and highly pluralistic views of the pagan mind. Finding correlations between gods here and there and reconstructing a pantheon of the yesteryears, from which we really have no evidence that is worth of a heavy substance, takes away the investment which can be put into bettering the polytheistic communities that we already have and assisting various folks to reconnect with a pantheon that is more familiar to their socio-cultural location, whether it's relative or distant.

Of course it's mostly academic. I think however this is very useful for Pre-Christian Polytheism, such as Heathenry. There are many holes in Northern European Paganism via Christianity, also the only sources my community actually has are a few Roman accounts of Germanic practices and The Eddas depicting the mythology, which were written by Christians. Romans and Christians were highly bias, so I take these sources with a grain of salt.

What's more useful is if there's an inconsistency with the Germanic pantheon, one could use comparative linguistics and mythology to see who she was. One example is Tyr's wife. She's unnamed and unknown for the most part, however when one takes into account that Tyr was the original chieftain god, then one could look at the consorts of other cognate deities to make a good guess as to who his wife was.

We get two results from this process. One comes from the Vedic Lore, as Dyaus Pitar is wed to Prithivi, we could guess that Tyr's wife mentioned in the Eddas is an earth goddess with similar origins to Prithivi. There aren't any which aren't already consorts to a god. So, then we're left with result two. More reconstruction based on comparative linguistics. One could take some consorts of other deities, such as Zeus with Dione or Jove with Juno, and guess that Tyr's wife has a name which is an etymological double. Luckily, we don't have to make one up like "Tiwa" or something like that. The goddess Zisa seems to be a double of Ziu and is associated with victory. It's a good guess, and possibly one less hole to fill in The Lore and Worldview for the reconstruction of my ancestral tradition.

 

[EyeofOdin]

To help you with your search:
The twin Gods in Hinduism are Ashwins Ashvins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Perkwunos is Parjanya in Hinduism, Indra at one time was that Parjanya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Very interesting! Thanks!

 

[EyeofOdin]

I've just found/forgotten to add some things lol.

Firstly, what I've theorized about Odin, Lugus and Loki, I have come across a completely different origin for them and it makes more sense.

I theorize that Odin, Lugus and Hermes all have the same origin. Remember how deities switch from their original name to one of their epithets? Well, for some reason, this god really really loves to change his name.

Theoretically, he was firstly called Haryomen or Xaryomen. His name translates as something like "togetherness of us". He's a God of social order, but unlike Djews Pater, he's more the god of preservation of the group rather than justice. On that note he's the god of oaths and promises as well. He's also god of commerce, travelers, crossroads and is more likely a psychopomp deity. With his association with the dead probably came the association with magick and shamanism.

Hermes directly comes from his name, "Haryomen[s]" (Harmes, or Hermes). Odin's name comes from Wotanaz, coming from Watinos, which appears to be an epithet name for the same god. The form "Haryomen" was retained in the Germanic word Irmin, believed to be another name for Odin by contemporary scholars. Finally Lugus' name is believed to be derived from the PIE word "leuk" meaning "to swear an oath", going back to how Haryomen was a god of oath keeping.

All of these deities had a human form at one point as well, and were always, with the exception of a few times, kings and the first chieftain of the tribe. On that note, there's no reason to think that they believed all of the gods were tribal chieftains and then became ascended ancestors, however that was the case for Yemos and Haryomen.

What of Loki? I'd say he's more related to Prometheus. They both were responsible for animating the first humans (in Loki's form "Lodhr", but I'm obligated to say that's not fully disputed). They both also have been damned to an eternity of being tied to a rock tortured by animals. Loki's name is somewhat of a mystery, however. His name Hvedrungr means possibly "roarer", while Loptr appears to be derived from "Lopt", norse word for air. The best that can be come up with for Loki however is that his name could be cognate with "lock" and it may means something like "the closer".

Pramatha in India has similar linguistic and mythological characteristics to Prometheus. So it only makes sense that the name of the reconstructed deity would probably have, or be preferred by, a name related and of similar structure. "Prometheus" means "forethought". Translated into PIE, it would literally be Promentios (pro being the PIE prefix retained in Latin and mentios from mentis, meaning "thought"). Promentios, the culture hero, bringer of fire, damned by the gods, beloved by mankind, wise magician and uncontrollable trickster.

Secondly I forgot a couple goddesses in the reconstructed pantheon.

PriHeh: Goddess of love. Her name means "beloved" or "friend". Reconstruction based on only the goddess Frigga, but other words such as English "friend" or Sanskrit "priya" also contributed.

It's thought that Aphrodite and Venus both are actually derived from the PIE dawn goddess Heusos, not PriHeh, referring to the myth of Aphrodite's birth, as she ascends from the water when Chronos kills Ouranos. Also another epithet to Heusos may have been Wenos, hence Latin "Venus", Sanskrit "Vanas" (meaning desire), and Nordic "Vanir". For this reason, I feel that Freyja is a deity descendent of Heusos, not with similar PIE origins to Frigg. I particularly think this under an epithet which would've looked something like Progenhos (meaning something like "creator", "producer" or "bringer of birth") which was later shortened to Proghos, if it hadn't had evolved into the Proto-Germanic form Fraujjon yet.

Dehnu- Earth and river goddess, from Sanskrit and Irish Danu and Welsh Don. She seems to be a central goddess, as she's mother of the gods for the Celts and a primordial goddess for the Indians. She likely was at least a consort to Djews Pater.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Aryan lore is a living tradition in India, the only one in the world. Poeticus is a follower of that lore. I too belong to that tradition, RigVeda has verses from my supposed forebears. I have modified my views but still strongly respect the Vedas.

As for your inquiry, see Chapters XI (Avestic Evidence) and Chapter XII (Comparative Mythology) of the book "Arctic Home In Vedas' at https://archive.org/details/TheArcticHomeInTheVedas.

Also see information about Tvastr, the universe maker in RigVeda. The name is similar to Thor. In Tamil, a metal smith is known as Thattar; and in Hindi it is 'Thathera'. This comes from the constant hammering that they are involved in 'Thak, Thak'. He was the maker of Indra's weapon, Vajra. Apart from Indra's Vajra. we have Gods with weapons like the hammer of Thor. Vishnu or Hanuman have a mace, Parashuram has an axe.

Indra's 'Vajra' was made of the bones of a horse (the sage who took this form was 'Dadhichi'). Indra is supposed to have killed him in the form of a lion. I remember that the my brother and his classmates from Udaipur Medical College used femur bones in their fights with the students of the Udaipur Agricultural College, the femur being the strongest bone in the body with a heavy head and comfortable to hold. Perhaps, Indra's 'Vajra' was the femur of a horse killed by a lion.

So much so at the moment.

p.s. - I have been told that the Slavs mentioned their God as 'Vishnye;, one who covers all. That is 'Vishnu' of Hinduism.

 

[Ds83]

I have a lottttt that

I love reconstruction of PIE language and religion. Being an Asatru Heathen, I also deeply enjoy finding new things about the origins of beliefs about the gods, ancestors and practices of my folk. To know that it, central gods and goddesses and important myths attached to them, is a continuation going back over 40,000 years is very cool indeed.

I wanted to start a discussion of Proto-Indo-European reconstruction, to see what anyone else may know. Given that polytheism isn't very popular, and linguistic and mythological reconstruction isn't popular either, it'd be nice to see what others have found through their digging.

Please note I'm going to write the names in a way which everyone can read and pronounce LOL. So I'm going to add in some vowels when reconstruction didn't leave any. Even though the scholars know, not everyone does

I've found sample of the pantheon of reconstructed deities and some of the mythology. All of them are central deities of course, as it's extremely difficult to trace back nobody's-heard-of-you, goddess of who-cares.

Various gods can be tricky, as a pair of deities from different cultures can have very similar attributes, but the names are completely different (example being Lugus and Odin). I feel that the PIE, although one title would've been most popular, others were used to invoke different aspects or characteristics of the deity in incantations or poetry. This is still a practice in most recent pagan peoples, such as Germanic peoples with Thor. He was called One who thunders from his original name, Atli meaning "the terrible", Véurr meaning "sanctifier" and others.

These are the archetypes which one can say more confidently were believed by the PIE people.

There seems to be multiple races of gods. At least two were probably in PIE worldview. A Dyeus is a celestial god while an Ansu was either a spirit or god with an unclear sphere of influence, maybe of nature. This comes from the mythology of the Germanic Aesir and Vanir and Hellenic Olympians and Titans.

Djews Pater- Chieftain god of the sky. He's reconstruction is derived from Zeus, Tyr, Jupiter, Dyaus Pita, Dispater as well as others. His name literally means "Sky Father" or "Heavenly Father".

Pletawi Mater or Dehghom- Mother goddess of the Earth and fertility. She may or may not have been betrothed to Djews Pater, and more likely not for the later PIEans. She is reconstructed from Pirthivi, Dhe Mote, Mati Zjemla and possibly Demeter.

Perkwunos- God of thunder and lightning. Known from Perkunas and Perun. Another name contains the fragment tar. I personally think the best reconstruction of the name of him is Taranos (any of the As could be Os though), from Proto Germanic Thunraz (also known as Thor), Proto-Celtic Toranos and Vedic Indra.

Heusos or Ausos- Goddess of the dawn. She's the daughter of Djews Pater. From Germanic Eostra, Hellenic Eos, Roman Aurora and Indian Ushas. There's a possibility she also is the origin of Vesta.

Based on the many different nature spirits among PIE cultures like Germ. Dwarves or Elves, Gk Satyrs or Nymphs and Vedic Aspara, it's very likely that there was at least one clan of spirits.

Cosmic Sperpent Either serpent or dragon is also likely. Reconstruction is based on Germ Jormungand, Gk Typhon, Hydra and Python and Hindu Vrtra.

World Tree- The idea of a world tree is present in Vedic, Norse and Celtic mythologies, but seems to be lost in Greco-Roman Lore.

Very likely there was also at least a pair of divine twins, but what they were or how many is unclear.

There are other other proposed deities but it's difficult to say the accuracy of the reconstruction, from their name to existence.

Hepom Nepots- A sea or water god. Greek Neptune, Vedic Apam Napat and Germanic Njord.

Welnos- Sometimes said to be a sky god (Greek Ouranos) or a pastoral deity, from gods of wealth or glory like Slavic Veles, Germanic Ullr.

Three fate goddesses are also hypothesized, from Germanic Norns and Greek Moirai. They weave a thread, which is supposed to represent fate or destiny.

Pehuson- Pastoral god or god of the earth ( Gk Pan, Italic Faunus)

Of the divine twins, I found three, maybe having the same origin, maybe not.

Yemos and Mannus- Brothers who either are the first mortals or cosmological gods who are the first to die. Mannus seems to be the father of humanity (Germanic Mannus, Vedic Manu) while Yemos (Germanic Ymir and Vedic Yama) seems to have some sort of role in cosmology or establishing order. If mortals, they seem to become gods of some sort after their death. Yemos would probably be the god of death or lord of the underworld while Mannus is an ascended ancestral master of some sorts.

Sawul and Menots- Goddess and God of the Sun and Moon, who carried it across the sky on their chariot. Sawul is from Gremanic Sowol, Italic Sol, Greek Helios and Vedic Surya. Menots is from Germanic Monne, Greek Mene and Lithuanian Meno.

Horse Twins- Maybe gods, maybe not, but at least spirits who accompany Sawul and tell her stories to keep her company. One is a horse and the other is a god or spirit. PIEans probably observed Venus and made the myth out of that. Reconstructed from Old English Hengist and Horsa and Greco-Roman Castor and Pollux.

Giants- A race of large, anthropomorphic beings, or at least beings or are giant like were possibly present in PIE religion and worldview. Sometimes they have relations with the gods, such as Odin and Jord bearing Thor or Polyphemos being the son of Poseidon. Notable races of giants are Jotunnar, Ispolini, Cyclopes and Daityas from Germanic, Bulgarian, Greek and Vedic Lore.

I've been wanting to find the origins of Germanic Odin and Loki for a while. After doing some digging, here's what I've found.

Odin seems to have no transcultural linguistic connections. I wondered how a deity so popular among ALL Germanic tribes could only be among them. Gods are rarely just invented, and Odin couldn't have been a minor deity. How can a "nobody's-heard-of-you" deity of "who-cares" all of a sudden become the king of Asgard, replacing Tiwaz (Proto-Germanic Dyews Pater)?

I saw that he is also very much like Celtic Lugus, but his name seems to have some relationship to Loki. As a heathen, I can say from honoring both of these deities, they are very similar. From time to time, I consider The Wise One to be a bit mischievous. At that note, I think that The Trickster has some wisdom to offer. It's worth noting that Loki's been described as the "hypostasis of Odin".

I'm not sure of the PIE name of the trickster god associated with Lugus and Loki, maybe something like Lugios. I do know that there is a pre-Proto-Germanic reconstruction. It's something to the effect of Watunos, derived from the Proto-Celtic word Watis, meaning priest. This appears to be a title given to a deity strongly associated with the Celtic Lugus. I think that scholars should consider the possibility that Loki and Odin started out as the same deity, but a title applied to that deity, along with the indigenous name, began to be worshipped as a separate god. Until I find another term, I'll call the PIE origin of this deity Lugios.

It's also theorized that Dionysos has origins in Perkwunos. As Dyews Pater started to be called Zeus Pater by the Greeks and began to assume the position as wielder of lightning, Perkwunos lost his name, as it means "striker [of lightning]". After he lost his role as god of lightning, he was just called Dionysos, meaning either "Zeus of Mount Nysa" or "Zeus of the trees". It's worth noting that Dionysos is speculated to have similar origins with Indra, because of a Vedic drink sacred to him.

Freyja and Frigga are sometimes thought to be originally the same goddess for the Proto-Germanic people, instead of being the two Fraujon and Frijjo. The argument against says that Frigga is probably cognate to Vedic priya, meaning beloved, while Freyja seems to be related to the Latin verb "progenere" meaning "to produce" and is derived from the PIE verb "gehn" meaning "to produce" or "to give birth to". This explains why Frigga is a goddess of love, but a more Cosmic Mother love, and while Freyja is too, she's not a motherly goddess but a sensual goddess of fertility and sexuality.

So that's it! everything I know about PIE reconstruction! That and I found something that says that all PIE deities are really just different forms or were at first different names of a central pantheon of five gods and goddesses, but that's WAAY too theoretical!! We're probably never going to know what's before this time period sadly What've you guys found?

I have a lottt i can add if youre still interested. Stuff that really helps make sense of manu, yemo, and trito and the other pie myths. Like Mehnot, Sehul, and Hwesos. I have connections ranging from mythical, linquistic, astrological, and agrigultural among others.

 

[Ds83]

I love reconstruction of PIE language and religion. Being an Asatru Heathen, I also deeply enjoy finding new things about the origins of beliefs about the gods, ancestors and practices of my folk. To know that it, central gods and goddesses and important myths attached to them, is a continuation going back over 40,000 years is very cool indeed.

I wanted to start a discussion of Proto-Indo-European reconstruction, to see what anyone else may know. Given that polytheism isn't very popular, and linguistic and mythological reconstruction isn't popular either, it'd be nice to see what others have found through their digging.

Please note I'm going to write the names in a way which everyone can read and pronounce LOL. So I'm going to add in some vowels when reconstruction didn't leave any. Even though the scholars know, not everyone does

I've found sample of the pantheon of reconstructed deities and some of the mythology. All of them are central deities of course, as it's extremely difficult to trace back nobody's-heard-of-you, goddess of who-cares.

Various gods can be tricky, as a pair of deities from different cultures can have very similar attributes, but the names are completely different (example being Lugus and Odin). I feel that the PIE, although one title would've been most popular, others were used to invoke different aspects or characteristics of the deity in incantations or poetry. This is still a practice in most recent pagan peoples, such as Germanic peoples with Thor. He was called One who thunders from his original name, Atli meaning "the terrible", Véurr meaning "sanctifier" and others.

These are the archetypes which one can say more confidently were believed by the PIE people.

There seems to be multiple races of gods. At least two were probably in PIE worldview. A Dyeus is a celestial god while an Ansu was either a spirit or god with an unclear sphere of influence, maybe of nature. This comes from the mythology of the Germanic Aesir and Vanir and Hellenic Olympians and Titans.

Djews Pater- Chieftain god of the sky. He's reconstruction is derived from Zeus, Tyr, Jupiter, Dyaus Pita, Dispater as well as others. His name literally means "Sky Father" or "Heavenly Father".

Pletawi Mater or Dehghom- Mother goddess of the Earth and fertility. She may or may not have been betrothed to Djews Pater, and more likely not for the later PIEans. She is reconstructed from Pirthivi, Dhe Mote, Mati Zjemla and possibly Demeter.

Perkwunos- God of thunder and lightning. Known from Perkunas and Perun. Another name contains the fragment tar. I personally think the best reconstruction of the name of him is Taranos (any of the As could be Os though), from Proto Germanic Thunraz (also known as Thor), Proto-Celtic Toranos and Vedic Indra.

Heusos or Ausos- Goddess of the dawn. She's the daughter of Djews Pater. From Germanic Eostra, Hellenic Eos, Roman Aurora and Indian Ushas. There's a possibility she also is the origin of Vesta.

Based on the many different nature spirits among PIE cultures like Germ. Dwarves or Elves, Gk Satyrs or Nymphs and Vedic Aspara, it's very likely that there was at least one clan of spirits.

Cosmic Sperpent Either serpent or dragon is also likely. Reconstruction is based on Germ Jormungand, Gk Typhon, Hydra and Python and Hindu Vrtra.

World Tree- The idea of a world tree is present in Vedic, Norse and Celtic mythologies, but seems to be lost in Greco-Roman Lore.

Very likely there was also at least a pair of divine twins, but what they were or how many is unclear.

There are other other proposed deities but it's difficult to say the accuracy of the reconstruction, from their name to existence.

Hepom Nepots- A sea or water god. Greek Neptune, Vedic Apam Napat and Germanic Njord.

Welnos- Sometimes said to be a sky god (Greek Ouranos) or a pastoral deity, from gods of wealth or glory like Slavic Veles, Germanic Ullr.

Three fate goddesses are also hypothesized, from Germanic Norns and Greek Moirai. They weave a thread, which is supposed to represent fate or destiny.

Pehuson- Pastoral god or god of the earth ( Gk Pan, Italic Faunus)

Of the divine twins, I found three, maybe having the same origin, maybe not.

Yemos and Mannus- Brothers who either are the first mortals or cosmological gods who are the first to die. Mannus seems to be the father of humanity (Germanic Mannus, Vedic Manu) while Yemos (Germanic Ymir and Vedic Yama) seems to have some sort of role in cosmology or establishing order. If mortals, they seem to become gods of some sort after their death. Yemos would probably be the god of death or lord of the underworld while Mannus is an ascended ancestral master of some sorts.

Sawul and Menots- Goddess and God of the Sun and Moon, who carried it across the sky on their chariot. Sawul is from Gremanic Sowol, Italic Sol, Greek Helios and Vedic Surya. Menots is from Germanic Monne, Greek Mene and Lithuanian Meno.

Horse Twins- Maybe gods, maybe not, but at least spirits who accompany Sawul and tell her stories to keep her company. One is a horse and the other is a god or spirit. PIEans probably observed Venus and made the myth out of that. Reconstructed from Old English Hengist and Horsa and Greco-Roman Castor and Pollux.

Giants- A race of large, anthropomorphic beings, or at least beings or are giant like were possibly present in PIE religion and worldview. Sometimes they have relations with the gods, such as Odin and Jord bearing Thor or Polyphemos being the son of Poseidon. Notable races of giants are Jotunnar, Ispolini, Cyclopes and Daityas from Germanic, Bulgarian, Greek and Vedic Lore.

I've been wanting to find the origins of Germanic Odin and Loki for a while. After doing some digging, here's what I've found.

Odin seems to have no transcultural linguistic connections. I wondered how a deity so popular among ALL Germanic tribes could only be among them. Gods are rarely just invented, and Odin couldn't have been a minor deity. How can a "nobody's-heard-of-you" deity of "who-cares" all of a sudden become the king of Asgard, replacing Tiwaz (Proto-Germanic Dyews Pater)?

I saw that he is also very much like Celtic Lugus, but his name seems to have some relationship to Loki. As a heathen, I can say from honoring both of these deities, they are very similar. From time to time, I consider The Wise One to be a bit mischievous. At that note, I think that The Trickster has some wisdom to offer. It's worth noting that Loki's been described as the "hypostasis of Odin".

I'm not sure of the PIE name of the trickster god associated with Lugus and Loki, maybe something like Lugios. I do know that there is a pre-Proto-Germanic reconstruction. It's something to the effect of Watunos, derived from the Proto-Celtic word Watis, meaning priest. This appears to be a title given to a deity strongly associated with the Celtic Lugus. I think that scholars should consider the possibility that Loki and Odin started out as the same deity, but a title applied to that deity, along with the indigenous name, began to be worshipped as a separate god. Until I find another term, I'll call the PIE origin of this deity Lugios.

It's also theorized that Dionysos has origins in Perkwunos. As Dyews Pater started to be called Zeus Pater by the Greeks and began to assume the position as wielder of lightning, Perkwunos lost his name, as it means "striker [of lightning]". After he lost his role as god of lightning, he was just called Dionysos, meaning either "Zeus of Mount Nysa" or "Zeus of the trees". It's worth noting that Dionysos is speculated to have similar origins with Indra, because of a Vedic drink sacred to him.

Freyja and Frigga are sometimes thought to be originally the same goddess for the Proto-Germanic people, instead of being the two Fraujon and Frijjo. The argument against says that Frigga is probably cognate to Vedic priya, meaning beloved, while Freyja seems to be related to the Latin verb "progenere" meaning "to produce" and is derived from the PIE verb "gehn" meaning "to produce" or "to give birth to". This explains why Frigga is a goddess of love, but a more Cosmic Mother love, and while Freyja is too, she's not a motherly goddess but a sensual goddess of fertility and sexuality.

So that's it! everything I know about PIE reconstruction! That and I found something that says that all PIE deities are really just different forms or were at first different names of a central pantheon of five gods and goddesses, but that's WAAY too theoretical!! We're probably never going to know what's before this time period sadly What've you guys found?

Here are some clues to begin with.

Trito cognates listed by scholars include,
Tritos Soter zeus
Tritogeneia Athena
Thridi Odin

For yemos they include
Ymir
Gemini - castor and pollux the divine horse twins.
Remus, brother of romulus killed by him.

Manu includes king Minos, and Mannus of germanic myth.

Not included by scholars but relevant is the other Tritogeniea figures.
One is the mother of a minyas by poseidon. Minyas a likely cognate to Minos and Manu.

Poseidon is linked to Yam of semitic religion, a sea god and likely cognate to Hindu Yama and Yemo. Yam suph is a river (red sea) parted or cut by moses as Ymir is cut apart and yama is too.

The other important Tritogeneia is Orion, another child of Poseidon.

Now we have Orion and the Gemini Constellations. The basis for all manu, yemo, and trito reflexes and cognates.

Tritogeneia Orion is the great Hunter blinded (temporarily in some myths) and killed by the great monster Scorpio.

Thridi Odin is the leader of the Great Yule Hunt during winter Equinox when Orion is at his Zenith. He too is blinded.

Odin who mates with the Earth mother Jord, is the castrated sky god Ouranos who mates with the earth mother Gaia.

Odin is named Jalkr, for a gelded horse. Meaning, hes been castrated too. This too can be explained by astronomy.



There is much, much much more I can tell you, link, and explain.

Not only is Odin, Trito. The constellation Orion.

Loki, is manu. The usurper tied to Archery usually (cresent moon forms the bow). A reflex seen in Artemis the moon goddess, and most importantly, Selene known as Mene. Mene being another likely cognate to Manu. The name Selene and Latin Luna relate etymologically to Loki by way of pie Lowksneh from Lewk, "to shine".

The archer Manu (moon, and man) killing Yemo (twin, and Sun) can be seen in Selene, Helios and Eos and Artemis, Apollo and Aphrodite. Or is Paris killing the Golden Achillies with an arrow to his heal. Paris is called Alexander in the Illiad, ander meaning "man".
This same reflex is seen in Hodr (and Loki) killing the sun god Baldr.

This is due to the moon passing by pollux, while the sun passes through the foot of Castor. Further, Gemini marks summer Solstice and death of the sun from its opposite sign, the archer Sagitarius.

Sagitarius B is the center of the milky way and thus the division or castration of the annual sky, and or Orion who is the most prominent constellation at this time during yule.

 

[Ds83]

If you follow astrology, youd see that Orion, not pollux, comes into view first. Pollux should be Trito.

In Greek though Trito is Zeus, Poseidon is Yemo, and Hades is Manu ( reflexes include Ouranos, Pontus and Orea along with Hyperion, Oceanus, and Cronus).

Only Latin seems to preserve the true order as Tertius (Latin cognate to Tritos in greek and Thridi in Norse, and not listed by scholars) is Pluto, while jupiter is linked to Summanus (a likely cognate to manu) his nocturnal twin. Neptune being yemo.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

This is some fascinating stuff

 

[Ds83]

This is some fascinating stuff

There is a lot more I can add if any one is interested.

 

[Ds83]

Ill try to write some more later (i have over 20 pages of short hand notes). Some greek cognates i can find are.

King Minos, son of Europa and Tritos Zeus. Is generally listed. Not listed is.

King Manes, son of Gaia and Tritos Zeus.

Minyas, son of Poseidon and Tritogeneia.

Mene (selene) the moon goddess daughter of sky god Hyperion.

Tritos Soter Zeus

Tritogeneia Athena, daughter of Tritos Zeus.
Also called Tritogenera, tritogenese, tritonia, trito'nis and Trito.

Tritogeneia Orion, son of Poseidon.

Triton, son of Poseidon.

Tritogeneia and poseidon creating Minyas is our clearest example of Trito and Yemo creating manu.

Which may show the confusion between poseidon as head of Mycenaean gods, vs Zeus as head during Classical times.


Selene is sister to Helios and Eos.

Athena is mind born as Aphrodite is self born from castration of Ouranos. As trito, shes a dawn goddess.

Minos is brother to Rhadamanthus and sometimes Sarpedon.

No clear cognates to yemo though. The association of the sea to yemo is partly based on Semitic Sea god Yam and his association to Poseidon.

These are just Greek cognates. There are a few extras in other languages/myths ill later mention but just using Greek, we get many clear examples with clues where to look next. Like Artemis, Apollo, and Aphrodite as reflexes based on Selene, Helios, and Eos. Or Ourea, Pontus, and Ouranos, or Cronus, Oceanus, and Hyperion are all reflexes.

A clue to this is Alpheus, son of Oceanus.
Or Lalebion / Albion, son of Poseidon.

Both derive from pie Albhos.

Another cognate with no known parents but a good clue is Alphito and her Alphitomancy tied to Barley divination.

The Barley Moon tied to Autumn Equinox and the harvest. Barley tied to the moon.

Both tied together in Levanah the semitic moon goddes.

Like Alb is many pie languages, Laban (Lbn) meant white in Hebrew and extended to the moon. Laban and Greek Lalebion may be the merge point.

Barley not part of original pastoral life and wouldve developed later in the middle east under farming and advent of Lunar Calendar.

Apheus and Albion tied to sea gods is reflected in Freyr and Freya as children of Njord. Alfar comes from Alb root.

Most famous Elf is the smith Volunder. Tying in Labor and Hindu Ribhus as cognates.

 

[Ds83]

The stand in of Gaia and Europa as mate to Tritos over Sea god is due to ancients believing the earth was bounded by the sea and the sea god has acces to all land via rains, river, lakes, etc.

In Norse we find Jord born or created from Ymir (yemo). Showing a clear tie between the two figures. An over lap we see in Greek.

The earth, sun, sea and Twin are all tied to Yemo.

The moon, man, and underworld associated with Manu.

The sky, dawn, and heavens associated to Trito.

Except in latin, when pluto and his underworld are Tertius, and Jupiter is Summanus and the heavens. Due to Latin preserving original order likely via Etruscan. A pre Pie language

 

[Ds83]

There are cognates in Semitic Yam the sea god, Manu the Great of East Semitic beliefs,

Levanah the moon goddess, laban uncle of Isaac. Yam Suph the red sea cut and parted by moses in foundation myth of Israel.

Then Isaiah is called Trito in the bible.

Reflexes in Cain, Abel, and Seth. Ham, shem, Japheth.

David killing goliath is Lugh killing Balor of the evil eye in Irish, or Alexander shooting Achilles in Greek, or Hodr killing Baldr in Norse.

There are more too that show these myths extended beyond proto indo european myths and may even predate the pie ones if they are derived from Sumerian. The first creators of the Lunar Calendar.

 

[Ds83]

I've just found/forgotten to add some things lol.

Firstly, what I've theorized about Odin, Lugus and Loki, I have come across a completely different origin for them and it makes more sense.

I theorize that Odin, Lugus and Hermes all have the same origin. Remember how deities switch from their original name to one of their epithets? Well, for some reason, this god really really loves to change his name.

Theoretically, he was firstly called Haryomen or Xaryomen. His name translates as something like "togetherness of us". He's a God of social order, but unlike Djews Pater, he's more the god of preservation of the group rather than justice. On that note he's the god of oaths and promises as well. He's also god of commerce, travelers, crossroads and is more likely a psychopomp deity. With his association with the dead probably came the association with magick and shamanism.

Hermes directly comes from his name, "Haryomen[s]" (Harmes, or Hermes). Odin's name comes from Wotanaz, coming from Watinos, which appears to be an epithet name for the same god. The form "Haryomen" was retained in the Germanic word Irmin, believed to be another name for Odin by contemporary scholars. Finally Lugus' name is believed to be derived from the PIE word "leuk" meaning "to swear an oath", going back to how Haryomen was a god of oath keeping.

All of these deities had a human form at one point as well, and were always, with the exception of a few times, kings and the first chieftain of the tribe. On that note, there's no reason to think that they believed all of the gods were tribal chieftains and then became ascended ancestors, however that was the case for Yemos and Haryomen.

What of Loki? I'd say he's more related to Prometheus. They both were responsible for animating the first humans (in Loki's form "Lodhr", but I'm obligated to say that's not fully disputed). They both also have been damned to an eternity of being tied to a rock tortured by animals. Loki's name is somewhat of a mystery, however. His name Hvedrungr means possibly "roarer", while Loptr appears to be derived from "Lopt", norse word for air. The best that can be come up with for Loki however is that his name could be cognate with "lock" and it may means something like "the closer".

Pramatha in India has similar linguistic and mythological characteristics to Prometheus. So it only makes sense that the name of the reconstructed deity would probably have, or be preferred by, a name related and of similar structure. "Prometheus" means "forethought". Translated into PIE, it would literally be Promentios (pro being the PIE prefix retained in Latin and mentios from mentis, meaning "thought"). Promentios, the culture hero, bringer of fire, damned by the gods, beloved by mankind, wise magician and uncontrollable trickster.

Secondly I forgot a couple goddesses in the reconstructed pantheon.

PriHeh: Goddess of love. Her name means "beloved" or "friend". Reconstruction based on only the goddess Frigga, but other words such as English "friend" or Sanskrit "priya" also contributed.

It's thought that Aphrodite and Venus both are actually derived from the PIE dawn goddess Heusos, not PriHeh, referring to the myth of Aphrodite's birth, as she ascends from the water when Chronos kills Ouranos. Also another epithet to Heusos may have been Wenos, hence Latin "Venus", Sanskrit "Vanas" (meaning desire), and Nordic "Vanir". For this reason, I feel that Freyja is a deity descendent of Heusos, not with similar PIE origins to Frigg. I particularly think this under an epithet which would've looked something like Progenhos (meaning something like "creator", "producer" or "bringer of birth") which was later shortened to Proghos, if it hadn't had evolved into the Proto-Germanic form Fraujjon yet.

Dehnu- Earth and river goddess, from Sanskrit and Irish Danu and Welsh Don. She seems to be a central goddess, as she's mother of the gods for the Celts and a primordial goddess for the Indians. She likely was at least a consort to Djews Pater.

I wouldnt link Freya to the Dawn Goddess seen in Eostre or Ostara among the germanic mythos.

Freya is the doublet of Freyr and both are likely tied to Manu and the moon, rather than Trito and the Dawn.

These doublets can be seen in zeus and dione, Jupiter and Juno, poseidon and posedaeia among others like Hindu Yama and Yami.

Compare male Mani and Mone to female Mene (selene), Artemis and Luna.

Or female Sunna and Sol to male Helios, Apollos and Sol.

Venus/Aphrodite is tied to Frigg. Venus is called Friggs Star in Norse.

Just my opinion though based on my research.

 

[Ds83]

The association to Mercury and Hermes always threw me honestly as I saw Odin more akin to Ouranos (Uranus).

Though if we consider the war like Ares as the usurper Manu, and Hephestus the smith as Yemo the sun god, then Hermes the messenger god may well be a trito figure, along with Thridi Odin.

Mars got his name possibly from maris in Etruscan but is more linked to Laran, which may or maynot connect to Laban and Alban.

The House of Alba Longa may well derive from Albus Luna, for white moon but that is entirely speculative on my part based on the role of the Albans in the founding myth of Rome being similar to that of the Romans versus the Sabines (save for any mentioned female abduction. Instead we get the cattle theft motiff seen in manu and yemo.).

Etruscan and Latin Summanus who is linked to Jupiter gets his name from Manes and Manus "hand".

King Manes is already linked to Zeus.

Manus "hand" being tied to Jupiter likely via Sabazios and his magic hand and link to Zeus. This "hand" likely tied to the myth of Tyr.

Mannus "horse" in latin is likely connected too to manu via the divine Horse twins motiff seen in Castor and Pollux the Gemini twins and Hengist and Horsa among others.

 

[Ds83]

All cognates i know of.

Hindu
Manu and. His brother Yama twin sister yami and Trito a hero not related.

Avestan
Manus Ciora Yima. And Thrita and his son Thraetona.

Germanic.
Mannus and Tuisto his father.

Norse.
Ymir and Thridi (Odin)

Latin.
Summanus twin of Jupiter, Remus and Gemini, and Tertius for Pluto.

Greek.
Minos, manes, minyas and Mene.

No yemo cognates.

Tritos Soter Zeus
Tritogeneia Orion
Tritogeneia mother of Minyas
Tritogeneia Athena. Also called Tritogenera, tritogenese, tritonia, trito'nis, and Trito.
And Triton.

Many proto indo europeanean gods like Dyews Pater, or hwesos the dawn goddess are associated to Trito.

The sun, Sehul is linked to Yemo and so is Dheghom the earth mother.

Mehnot, the moon is linked to Manu.

The Divine Horse twins linked to Manu and Yemo.

Messenger god to Trito.
Smith god to yemo.
God of war to manu.

Helper beings like Ribhus and Alfar from Albhos and linked to Manu as children of Yemos. (Like dwarves/elves born from flesh of Ymir).

Some of these likely developed after other roles were filled. When sea, sky and underworld are filled, a god of war, smithing and messages can occur, or moon, sun, and, Dawn.

There is typically a war involving the cutting, parting or sailing of the sea (ships of the Tuatha de danann, the 1000 greek ships invading troy, the sea voyage of Aeneas to Italy, or Moses parting the red sea (yam suph).

There is usually a theft of cattle or a woman to start the war. (Theft of Helen of Troy, theft of Sabine women by Romans, theft of Roman Cattle by Alban kings of Alba Longa, and possibly theft of Idunn as start of Aesir vs Vanir war and or Ragnorak).

The usurper is usually involved as the person kidnapping cattle, woman, and sometimes the crown it self. Often blocking another group from usurping them (cronus vs Ouranos then zeus vs Cronus in Titan War. Zeus swallowing Metis to prevent birth of Athena. Balor of the Evil Eye who locks his daughter in a tower and killed by his grandson Lugh. Loki who kidnapps Idunn. Paris/Alexander who takes Helen and kills Achilles.

In Hurrian mythology and Sumerian its Kumarbi who usurps Anu and bites off his penis.

This war is typically part of the Foundation myth setting up the main gods rule. Like the Aos Si (Tuatha de danann), the Aesir in Norse, the Aiser in Etruscan and Latin, the Olympians in Greek, and the Devas in Hindu.

This extends to the mortals too like the foundation of Rome, Ireland, England, and Greeks.

Its a repeating cycle built out of the 3 manu, yemo and Trito to the constellations Orion and Gemini as the original means of time keeping and tracking the Equinoxes.

In time it grew and evolved to include the sun and moon and venus. With mars, Jupiter, and mercury coming to be god of war, messages and supreme ruler.

First it began with Lunar calendars and likely transitioned to Solar Calendars.

They began filling in the 4 quartes divided by 3s with constellations depicting a story to keep tract of the stars.

Sometimes, some people like Herakles came to embody all 12 constellations. Hes the usurper archer killing his sons and bound to 12 labors, then his evil is bounded by a poisoned vest that kills him. He is reborn among the olympians following his death of ripping him self to pieces to remove the vest like yemo, Ymir, or Yama. He is part of creation by way of Aquarius sign most likely representing his spitting out Heras milk to create the milky way. The next sign pisces being the two serpents in his cradle. He fights the lion leo, and rescues Geryons cattle (Aries) among others.

These 12 constellations can be roughly theorized and reconstructed in Norse too.
Capricorn is loki in Lokesenna fleeing capture as a fish following death of Baldr by Hodr (sagitarius).
If Orion is Odin, then his mortal foe fenrir is Scorpio.
Aries is Thor going north to retrieve Aegirs Kettle (big dipper) and fight Jormungandr (draco constellation that encircles the world and the north star)

North star is yggdrasil or tree of Golden apples in greek myth.

Virgo is Idunn and her theft representing autumn.
Libra and scales of justice is Hel and the coming of death followed by her brother Fenrir for scorpio.

The yule hunt tied to Orion.

There is much more that can be discussed, im just trying to not ramble on too much.