Proof of Pre-Existence

[Soapy]

Why is Jesus Christ, the only one in the fallacy of a triad of Persons masquerading as one Person entitled ‘God’, controversially pre-existent - but is said to BECOME GREAT ONLY AFTER being born as a human child?

Consider these verses in your response:

“… I (YHWH) WILL BECOME his father, and he WILL BECOME my son” (Hebrews 1:5)

“He WILL BE great and WILL BE called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God (YHWH) WILL GIVE HIM the throne of his father, [King] David.” (Luke 1:32)

“This is my Son, the one who I (YHWH) have chosen.” (Luke 9:35)

‘The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High (YHWH) will overshadow [the virgin mary]. THEREFORE the holy one to be born WILL BE CALLED the Son of God.’ (Luke 1:35)

How can some who is pre-existent (as God) only ‘To be a Son’, ‘To become great’, ‘To acquire an earthly throne’?

Is this a case of a ‘Greater become a Lesser’ - and why in Heaven or on earth would a GOD desire to be his own creation:

• Does a comic book animator desire to become a character he has created in his comic book?
• Does an Aquarist who owns his fish and maintains them in an aquarium desire to become a fish in that aquarium?

 

[Eli G]

The fact that Jesus pre-existed before being born as a human being does not necessarily imply that he existed from eternity.

The Bible says that Jesus pre-existed, but also calls him "the firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15).

The only Eternal living being (in past) is the Creator of Jesus, who is called his Father.

 

[Soapy]

The fact that Jesus pre-existed before being born as a human being does not necessarily imply that he existed from eternity.

The Bible says that Jesus pre-existed, but also calls him "the firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15).

The only Eternal living being (in past) is the Creator of Jesus, who is called his Father.

‘Firstborn’ means ‘The greatest love of the Father’:

• ‘Behold my Servant; my chosen one on whom I have put my Spirit’
• “You [Jesus Christ] have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore YHWH, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” (Hebrews 1:9)
• ‘You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor and put everything under their feet.” In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them.’ (Hebrews 2:7-8) ….
  • This verse is what was MIS-TRANSLATED to say that Jesus is the creator of all things. But you can see that it actually pertains to Jesus Christ IN HEAVEN when God ‘granted Jesus TO RULE over creation for a thousand years’. In this time, yes, Jesus was FULLY in charge over ALL CREATION… But you know that Jesus ‘Hands back yhd kingdom TO GOD when the time is up!!’

It is not about chronological birth, which is a different set of words: ‘First Born’.

The Trinitarians who translated the scriptures from the Greek chose confusing and conflicting words to try to justify their belief. They had to do this otherwise much of their claims would fall apart easier than knowing that 1 + 1 does not equal 3 (but they forgot that ‘I and the Father are one’ does not equal a trinity!!)

There are other words such as ‘Soul’ and ‘Person’, ‘LORD’ and ‘Lord’, ‘Heaven’ and heaven(s)’, etc., which serve to confuse and attempt to validate trinity claims….

The Scriptures nowhere says that Jesus pre-existed his birth as a human being - you can see this by the list of verses I showed you which you seem to have totally ignored despite them being the very essence of the thread question.

Please beware of these and other such deceptions when reading the scriptures.

 

[Eli G]

"born" has semantically nothing to do with "love".

Are you inventing semantic relationships that do not exist?

 

[amazing grace]

The fact that Jesus pre-existed before being born as a human being does not necessarily imply that he existed from eternity.

The Bible says that Jesus pre-existed, but also calls him "the firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15).

The only Eternal living being (in past) is the Creator of Jesus, who is called his Father.

In the context of Colossians 1, we can see in what manner Jesus was "the firstborn of all creation" - 16). . . "He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent."

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation being the firstborn from the dead - not in relation to the creation in Genesis but in relation to the new creation, the new heaven and new earth, the coming kingdom.

 

[Eli G]

The problem is that all those interpretations of "firstborn" try to change what BORN means to make it agree with certain beliefs.

Firstborn and only-begotten include the word born in their semantic content. Why do some capriciously try to change that detail?

 

[amazing grace]

The problem is that all those interpretations of "firstborn" try to change what BORN means to make it agree with certain beliefs.

Firstborn and only-begotten include the word born in their semantic content. Why do some capriciously try to change that detail?

The problem is that each usage of firstborn in the context of Col. 1:15 & 18 comes from the Greek word prototokos which is not the same as and is not the same only begotten which is transcribed from the Greek word monogenes. Firstborn in Colossians has to do with first in time or place, first in rank, to bear, bring forth. So in this instance and in this context - Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation being the firstborn out from among the dead so that in everything he is preeminent.

 

[Eli G]

That is not the problem. The problem is in the people who want to change the meaning of the words because they can't accept what those words imply.

 

[amazing grace]

That is not the problem. The problem is in the people who want to change the meaning of the words because they can't accept what those words imply.

Because it is hard to know who you are responding to, it's hard to know to whom the above accusation is directed? If it is directed at me - look the words up for yourself. Who changed the meaning?

 

[Eli G]

πρωτοτόκος -ον [πρῶτος, τίκτω] that gives birth or has given birth for the first time, at the first birth Il. 17.5 Plat. Theaet. 151c, al. Aristot. H.A. 546a 12, al. etc. Dor. gen. πρᾱτοτόκοιο Theocr. 5.27.
πρωτότοκος -ον [πρῶτος, τίκτω] born first, firstborn VT Gen. 4:4 (of animals), al. Phil. Cher. 54, al. etc.; εἶναι αὐτὸν πρωτότοκον ἐν πολλοῖς ἀδελφοῖς to be the firstborn of many brothers NT Rom. 8:29; π. ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν the firstborn of the dead, Christ NT Col. 1:18 | subst. ὁ πρωτότοκος the firstborn VT 1 Chr. 5:1; τὰ πρωτότοκα the firstborn NT Heb. 11:28 | fig. AP 9.213.3 (Homer, firstborn of Kolophon).

(The Brill Dictionary of Ancient Greek)

 

[Soapy]

"born" has semantically nothing to do with "love".

Are you inventing semantic relationships that do not exist?

I see you SEPARATED the single word, ‘FIRSTBORN’ into two words and then commented on one of them —- who is inventing a relationship that doesn’t exist?????

The ‘FIRST BORN’ child is (initially, at least) the greatest love of the Father…. (FIRSTBORN).

This has been demonstrated in scriptures many times - if you don’t know this then you need to stop your involvement in this thread as you are making accusations that are untrue!!!

‘Firstborn’ is a SINGLE WORD… it’s not TWO WORDS flung together.

‘Firstborn’ is a TRANSLATED term from the that which means, ‘The most beloved of the Father’.

• Q: How would you say, ‘The most beloved of the Father; the father’s favoured son’? Give me a single word describing the term!

‘[First] [Born]’ is TWO WORDS describing a CHRONOLOGICAL (Placed in time) order of BIRTH. And since jesus was NEVER BORN then it cannot be said that he was THE FIRST FROM THE MOTHER’S WOMB (what mother?).

When you understand the difference in terms you will get a great fulfilled feeling running through you - this would be the revelation given to you by means of the revealer; the Spirit of God. You will also understand why there is so much written in scriptures pertaining to this… and how the term:

1. ‘The first is taken away and replaced by the second’
2. ‘The first sins, and another is brought up to replace him’

Both ‘First Born’ and ‘Firstborn’ are used in those sentences:

1. The ‘first born’ [first son from the womb] is taken away and replaced by the ‘Firstborn’ [son] (the Son the Father loved the most)
2. ‘The first born [son born from the womb] sins, and another [the most beloved] is brought up to replace him’

Check the scriptures (use the terms I gave you: ‘First born’ and ‘Firstborn’ as I showed you):

• Who was the first born of Abraham: In the end, who was the Firstborn of Abraham? Why? What did the first born do that was bad?

• Who was the first born of Isaac: In the end, who was the Firstborn of Isaac? Why? What did the first born do that was bad?

• Who was the first born of Jacob: In the end, who was the Firstborn of Isaac? Why? What did the first born do that was bad?

• Who was the first born of Jesse: In the end, who was the Firstborn of Jesse? Why? What did the first born do that was bad?

• Who was the first born Son of God (Luke 3:38): In the end, who was the Firstborn of God ? Why? What did the first born do that was bad?

The trinitarian translators could have created a different word for ‘Most beloved of the Father’ but they knew this way would cause confusion in their favour. They did the same with ‘Lord’ and ‘LORD’. It’s all about attempting to, and convincing, converts, and congregations of the Roman Catholic faith (which is the foundation of all Trinitarians ideology) that the trinity belief is true.

—————————————

Please answer the questions - the truthful answers will astonish you and scriptures (in this aspect) will delight you in its wisdom!

[You can, of course, elect to remain in ignorance if it suits you!!!!]

 

[Soapy]

In the context of Colossians 1, we can see in what manner Jesus was "the firstborn of all creation" - 16). . . "He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent."

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation being the firstborn from the dead - not in relation to the creation in Genesis but in relation to the new creation, the new heaven and new earth, the coming kingdom.

‘Firstborn’: ‘The most beloved of all images of God’; the one who most greatly mirrors the Father.

Jesus is the most beloved over all that God ever created.

‘First Born’ from the dead is a different word altogether and means ‘Chronologically first in line’; pre-eminent, as the verse says.‘the first of many sons’. There can only ever be one ‘Firstborn’: MOST loved.

 

[Soapy]

The problem is that each usage of firstborn in the context of Col. 1:15 & 18 comes from the Greek word prototokos which is not the same as and is not the same only begotten which is transcribed from the Greek word monogenes. Firstborn in Colossians has to do with first in time or place, first in rank, to bear, bring forth. So in this instance and in this context - Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation being the firstborn out from among the dead so that in everything he is preeminent.

The word, ‘Firstborn’ was chosen to resemble ‘First Born’ for the reason of confusion.

It’s very easy to write ‘Firstborn’ when the context is ‘First Born’… and vice versa. The result is confusion and a change in meaning which benefits only those who seek trinity ideology.

Jesus is SECOND ‘Son of God’. The FIRST Son of God was ADAM… as shown in Luke 3:38.

The scriptures tells the truth:

• ‘The first sinned; and another was brought up to replace him’
• “You [Jesus Christ] have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore YHWH, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” (Hebrews 1:9)
  • ‘Companions’ here, means, ‘Mankind’, ‘Humanity’, ‘Those made in the images of God’

 

[amazing grace]

πρωτοτόκος -ον [πρῶτος, τίκτω] that gives birth or has given birth for the first time, at the first birth Il. 17.5 Plat. Theaet. 151c, al. Aristot. H.A. 546a 12, al. etc. Dor. gen. πρᾱτοτόκοιο Theocr. 5.27.
πρωτότοκος -ον [πρῶτος, τίκτω] born first, firstborn VT Gen. 4:4 (of animals), al. Phil. Cher. 54, al. etc.; εἶναι αὐτὸν πρωτότοκον ἐν πολλοῖς ἀδελφοῖς to be the firstborn of many brothers NT Rom. 8:29; π. ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν the firstborn of the dead, Christ NT Col. 1:18 | subst. ὁ πρωτότοκος the firstborn VT 1 Chr. 5:1; τὰ πρωτότοκα the firstborn NT Heb. 11:28 | fig. AP 9.213.3 (Homer, firstborn of Kolophon).

(The Brill Dictionary of Ancient Greek)

4416. prototokos pro-tot-ok'-os from 4413 and the alternate of 5088; first-born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively):--firstbegotten(-born).

“the firstborn of all creation.” This phrase refers to Christ being the firstfruits of those raised from the dead (cp. 1 Cor. 15:20). The Greek is “the firstborn of all creation” (or, “the firstborn of every creature,” since there is no article before “creation”), but the exact significance of the genitive is debated. One natural reading of the genitive case is the partitive genitive, which would be saying that Jesus is the firstborn one of the rest of creation, which is true and makes sense, since Jesus was indeed the first person ever to be raised from the dead in a new, everlasting body. However that interpretation is rejected by Trinitarians, not because of grammar, but because they claim that Jesus was not in fact part of the creation at all, but is actually the eternal God.

The genitive can also be a genitive of relation, which would mean that Jesus was the firstborn in relation to other creations, that is, that Jesus was “firstborn,” i.e., raised from the dead, before anyone else. Although that is also a natural reading of the genitive case in this context, and is certainly true, that explanation is also sometimes rejected by Trinitarians because it does not inherently recognize the Trinitarian doctrine that Jesus is God in the flesh.

Some Trinitarians prefer the genitive of comparison,a because that would make the verse say that Christ was inherently better than the others who were raised from the dead. But while Christ is no doubt better than the other saved people who will be raised from the dead, that use of the genitive is not usual in a context like this, and thus is not the most natural reading of the genitive in this verse. The genitive in the verse is not naturally supportive of the doctrine of the Trinity. Nevertheless, the idea of the comparative genitive combined with the doctrine of the Trinity is why some versions translate the verse into English as “the firstborn over all creation,” which is an interpretation of what the Greek means, rather than a translation of the Greek.

God likely used the genitive in this verse because it can be understood in multiple ways, all of which are true, which is the beauty of the genitive case: it can emphasize several things at one time. As a partitive genitive, it shows Jesus is part of God’s creation, which he is; as a genitive of relation it shows that Jesus was the first person raised from the dead to everlasting life, which he was; and as a comparative genitive, it shows that God has given rank and privileges to Jesus Christ, which He did. In biblical society, being the firstborn had privileges associated with it that Jesus Christ, as the firstborn, certainly receives.
(Commentary Colossians 1:15; spiritandtruthonline.org)

Context, Context, Context!!!! Colossians 1:15-20 the use of "firstborn" relates to Christ's being the firstborn out from among the dead.

 

[amazing grace]

The word, ‘Firstborn’ was chosen to resemble ‘First Born’ for the reason of confusion.

It’s very easy to write ‘Firstborn’ when the context is ‘First Born’… and vice versa. The result is confusion and a change in meaning which benefits only those who seek trinity ideology.

Jesus is SECOND ‘Son of God’. The FIRST Son of God was ADAM… as shown in Luke 3:38.

The scriptures tells the truth:

• ‘The first sinned; and another was brought up to replace him’
• “You [Jesus Christ] have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore YHWH, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” (Hebrews 1:9)
  • ‘Companions’ here, means, ‘Mankind’, ‘Humanity’, ‘Those made in the images of God’

I agree that God's "first" Son was Adam. AND it is true that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God thus making him God's "firstborn" Son. (Luke 2:7) In most cases when "firstborn" is used, it literally refers to the one born first (some examples: Gen. 4:4, 27:32, 35:23; Ex. 6:14, 12:12; Num. 1:20, Luke 2:7; Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15, 18; Heb. 1:6, etc.)
Context is the key for understanding what is meant and it is clear that Colossians is speaking of Christ's the firstborn out from among the dead.

 

[Soapy]

I agree that God's "first" Son was Adam. AND it is true that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God thus making him God's "firstborn" Son. (Luke 2:7) In most cases when "firstborn" is used, it literally refers to the one born first (some examples: Gen. 4:4, 27:32, 35:23; Ex. 6:14, 12:12; Num. 1:20, Luke 2:7; Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15, 18; Heb. 1:6, etc.)
Context is the key for understanding what is meant and it is clear that Colossians is speaking of Christ's the firstborn out from among the dead.

If you understand that ‘Firstborn’ means ‘The greatest love of the Father’ then all will be clear.

But ‘First Born’ is exactly what it says on the can.

What better way to cause confusion and benefit the false teaching of Trinity but to do thus. The same concept is used in the word ‘Worship’.

What is ‘Worship’?

I’ve asked many tubes but no one has responded….

To be sure, worship does not just means ‘Bowing down’ to another person (or animal or inanimate object).

It means:

• The holding of that ‘other’ AS THEIR DEITY, THEIR GOD
• Giving SACRIFICE,
• DEDICATION
• PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
• COMPLETE ADORATION
• OBEDIENCE TO
• …etc.

But there is another word, OBEISANCE… This word is DELIBERATELY translated as ‘WORSHIP’ when it comes to Jesus Christ in the scriptures BUT it is not ‘Worship’ as shown above.

The disciples often GREETED Jesus Christ as anyone would do to a great MASTER… by BOWING DOWN in front of them. Is this WORSHIP?

Did people not do this to Priests, Kings, Masters, Teachers, Lords, Judges… anyone in authority, in fact!

Did the Jews accuse jests of being WORSHIPPED?

Did the Jews accuse the disciples of WORSHIPPING Jesus Christ?

Why not - for sure they were seeking ways to get Jesus arrested and would observe as the disciples BOWED before him… Why didn’t they arrest both parties as they knew only to WORSHIP GOD:The Father.

They didn’t because IT WAS NOT ‘WORSHIP’… but every trinitarian will leap at the example so as to claim that Jesus was WORSHIPPED… but they present no evidence because, actually, they know that the word TRANSLATED as ‘Worship’ was actually, ‘OBEISANCE’ (to bow down in HONOUR of the positional authority of the person being referenced).

 

[Tomef]

but is said to BECOME GREAT ONLY AFTER being born as a human child?

Where does that bit come from? The whole bit in revelations about the lamb of god volunteering to stand in the gap is prenatal.

 

[amazing grace]

If you understand that ‘Firstborn’ means ‘The greatest love of the Father’ then all will be clear.

But ‘First Born’ is exactly what it says on the can.

What better way to cause confusion and benefit the false teaching of Trinity but to do thus.

I understand that in most cases it means the firstborn, 1) of man or beast; 2) of Christ, the first born of all creation. [prototokos - compound from protos meaning 1) first in time or place, a. in any succession of things or persons; 2) first in rank, a. influence, honor, b. chief, c. principal; 3) first, at the first and tikto meaning 1) to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from seed), a. of a woman giving birth, b. of the earth bringing forth its fruits; c. metaph. to bear, bring forth] Please note that I am only referring to the Colossians 1:15, 18 usage and I believe it to refer to Christ being the firstborn of the NEW CREATION, the head of the church and as the head holds the body together - Christ holds the church together placing him first in rank, i.e. preeminence and also holding preeminence in being the firstborn out from among the dead, i.e. the first in the succession of human beings to be brought forth from the dead.

I believe that where the Trinitarian error comes in is to apply "first born of all creation" to "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". I do not see any reference to "the greatest love of the Father" in any definition.

The same concept is used in the word ‘Worship’.

What is ‘Worship’?

I’ve asked many tubes but no one has responded….

To be sure, worship does not just means ‘Bowing down’ to another person (or animal or inanimate object).

It means:

• The holding of that ‘other’ AS THEIR DEITY, THEIR GOD
• Giving SACRIFICE,
• DEDICATION
• PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
• COMPLETE ADORATION
• OBEDIENCE TO
• …etc.

But there is another word, OBEISANCE… This word is DELIBERATELY translated as ‘WORSHIP’ when it comes to Jesus Christ in the scriptures BUT it is not ‘Worship’ as shown above.

The disciples often GREETED Jesus Christ as anyone would do to a great MASTER… by BOWING DOWN in front of them. Is this WORSHIP?

Did people not do this to Priests, Kings, Masters, Teachers, Lords, Judges… anyone in authority, in fact!

Did the Jews accuse jests of being WORSHIPPED?

Did the Jews accuse the disciples of WORSHIPPING Jesus Christ?

Why not - for sure they were seeking ways to get Jesus arrested and would observe as the disciples BOWED before him… Why didn’t they arrest both parties as they knew only to WORSHIP GOD:The Father.

They didn’t because IT WAS NOT ‘WORSHIP’… but every trinitarian will leap at the example so as to claim that Jesus was WORSHIPPED… but they present no evidence because, actually, they know that the word TRANSLATED as ‘Worship’ was actually, ‘OBEISANCE’ (to bow down in HONOUR of the positional authority of the person being referenced).

The above is a whole other subject but I do agree with what you have said about worship.

 

[Brian2]

The fact that Jesus pre-existed before being born as a human being does not necessarily imply that he existed from eternity.

The Bible says that Jesus pre-existed, but also calls him "the firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15).

The only Eternal living being (in past) is the Creator of Jesus, who is called his Father.

Jesus was not created (see John 1:3) so any quotes you give which you claim to show that He was created are misinterpretations or lies by your teachers. eg. "firstborn" does not always mean "first one born". (see Psalm 89:27. A firstborn is not appointed.)

 

[Brian2]

Why is Jesus Christ, the only one in the fallacy of a triad of Persons masquerading as one Person entitled ‘God’, controversially pre-existent - but is said to BECOME GREAT ONLY AFTER being born as a human child?

Consider these verses in your response:

“… I (YHWH) WILL BECOME his father, and he WILL BECOME my son” (Hebrews 1:5)

“He WILL BE great and WILL BE called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God (YHWH) WILL GIVE HIM the throne of his father, [King] David.” (Luke 1:32)

“This is my Son, the one who I (YHWH) have chosen.” (Luke 9:35)

‘The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High (YHWH) will overshadow [the virgin mary]. THEREFORE the holy one to be born WILL BE CALLED the Son of God.’ (Luke 1:35)

How can some who is pre-existent (as God) only ‘To be a Son’, ‘To become great’, ‘To acquire an earthly throne’?

Is this a case of a ‘Greater become a Lesser’ - and why in Heaven or on earth would a GOD desire to be his own creation:

• Does a comic book animator desire to become a character he has created in his comic book?
• Does an Aquarist who owns his fish and maintains them in an aquarium desire to become a fish in that aquarium?

One who was equal to God, became a servant of God for our sake.