DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
Okay, I hear ya. You're right. I carelessly worded my post. When I referred to teaching true doctrine, I probably should have said learning true doctrine. When you teach true doctrine, and people learn/receive it, it changes them. Just as you said, many people were taught great things by Jesus and other prophets, but they rejected their words and were not changed in any positive way. There is a direct relationship between what someone puts into a lesson, talk, or discussion, and how much they get out of it. "True doctrine, understood, changes attitudes and behavior" (President Packer).To me this post is problematic on a number of levels. I understand what I think you wanted to say, but even so
I reject the notion that something must change the inside of a person or it is for naught. This idea is far too stark a claim. Knowing the capital of the Assyrian Empire was Nineveh does not change the inside of a person, it does provide proper context when discussing the story of Jonah for example. Understanding Hebrew poetic devices does not change the inside of a person, but will allow accessing the Book of Isaiah a much easier task.
I reject the notion that correct teaching does change people, if the idea is the one necessitates the other. Christ, who by definition was the perfect teacher, had a very small sustained following and was rejected by the bulk of those who heard His teaching. If you simply meant correct teaching may change a person, then the statement doesnt have much force. I think the reality is the Gospel and Church entails a pro-active element. A fellow could be teaching something true that may or may not be picked up on by the listener. What one person finds boring, may inspire another. Too often people extrapolate their experience as the standard for all: their personal dislike is made normative "I didn't like X therefore the failure is with the X, and not with me".
Per core principles: I dont know what to make of this idea. On the one hand this could be taken as advocating nothing above Primary for all. On the other hand, I doubt there are many in the Church who can expound core principles coherently: if this means giving a clear explanation of fundamental ideas that ground the faith. For example, the Atonement would qualify as a core principle. How many can explain the rational mechanics of this notion? I think the vast bulk wouldnt be able to move much beyond explanations that rival Trinitarians trying to explain the Trinity. If one accepts Christs words Great are the words of Isaiah then it would seem going into detail on those words from a variety of sources would be a good thing. If detail on the Book of Isaiah doesnt count as proper exposition of core principle then perhaps the idea of core principle for core principles sake isnt the only standard to be loyal to. Finally, if expounding nothing but core principles is the meme, it moves in the direction of testimony which is something than Sunday School.
I do think I understand what you wanted to say: church should edify and avoid the philosophies of men. This is all fine and good, but I dont think edification is only found in regurgitating the same year after year. Primary and Gospel Doctrine classes should not be the same. I also think the fear of the philosophies of men is often simply an excuse for anti-intellectualism. There is a richness in the Gospel that is too often passed by unacknowledged simply because of laziness.
Studying Hebraic literary patterns may or may not change your life. But it can help open the words of Isaiah to your understanding. I know personally that Isaiah is some of the most powerful scripture I have ever read. It teaches us things about the nature of God and about our relationship to him. When the meaning of those words strike your mind and your heart, the power is enough to make you tremble. Anything that will aid in that process is worth while in my opinion. However, it is as a means to an end. Sure, I believe that almost all knowledge is inherently of value. It's just a matter of sorting good, better, and best. I believe that the Sabbath day is a day for pursuing "the best." The things learned and taught at Church IMO should either be the core principles of the Gospel directly, or some supporting knowledge that will help us attain them.
Perhaps when I say core principles of the Gospel, we are thinking of different things. If so, I am sure that I am at fault. I believe that there is an ocean of knowledge and understanding awaiting the faithful seekers of truth. In fact, I believe the level of light, truth, and knowledge we posses corresponds directly to our progress along the straight and narrow path. My hands down favorite chapter from last years manual of teachings of Joseph Smith was the chapter titled "Gaining Knowledge of Eternal Truths." It is a real gem. Here are a couple of highlights:
Wow! Great stuff! I love the teachings of Joseph Smith!Joseph Smith said:A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge.
Knowledge is necessary to life and godliness. Woe unto you priests and divines who preach that knowledge is not necessary unto life and salvation. Take away Apostles, etc., take away knowledge, and you will find yourselves worthy of the damnation of hell. Knowledge is revelation. Hear, all ye brethren, this grand key: knowledge is the power of God unto salvation.
As far as we degenerate from God, we descend to the devil and lose knowledge, and without knowledge we cannot be saved.
When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospelyou must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.
God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them, for the day must come when no man need say to his neighbor, Know ye the Lord; for all shall know Him from the least to the greatest.
Anyway, it is obvious that we have a great deal to learn. I think that God teaches us in a really unique, profound way. You would think he would give us something easy, something sort of... trivial or something to start with. No. He starts us with the most profound and powerful doctrine in the Gospel: Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that the "first principles and ordinances of the Gospel" are not only first in order, but first in importance as well. As we progress in our level of understanding, we don't move on to some different set of advanced, top-secret principles reserved for the elite inner circle. Rather, we move on to an advanced, top-secret level of understanding of the same principles. I believe that everything builds on the principle of Faith in Jesus Christ. Just like there's a difference between twenty years of experience and one year of experience repeated twenty times, there is a difference between progressing with regards to the core doctrines and rehashing the same boring elementary lessons about Gospel principles over and over.
The Gospel is a seed. If planted it will grow. You never leave the original seed that you plant and pass it up for a better one. When it develops into a beautiful tree bearing fruit that is sweet above all that is sweet, it will not be a different tree. It is the same tree that was placed gently into your outstretched hand all that time ago, barely more than a speck, nothing more than a sliver of faith.
That is what I mean by "core principles," the principles that will carry us into God's very presence if we hold fast to them. The rod of iron leads straight to the tree of life. Any material not constituting that rod in some way is an unwanted detour taken from the perspective of a Sunday school lesson. Or at least, that is my take on the matter. What do you think?