Pride

[rosends]

I have been thinking about teh verse from Proverbs (16:18) which is often translated as "Pride goes before destruction" or something to that effect.

The Hebrew is לִפְנֵי־שֶׁ֥בֶר גָּא֑וֹן
Lifnei (in front of, in the face of, before)
Shever (the breaking of, the destruction of)
Ga'on

The third word is puzzling to me. Teh Hebrew word Ga'on means a variety of things. First I will cut and paste the definition and examples that Sefaria has as the default meaning

גָּאוֹן (n-m) heb

1. 1. • exaltation, majesty, pride
        1. • majesty, exaltation, excellence
             1. • of nations
                • of God
                • of the Jordan
           • pride, arrogance (bad sense)

Source: מקור: Open Scriptures on GitHub
Creator: יוצר: Based on the work of Larry Pierce at the Online Bible
† גָּאוֹן

1. n.m. Ho 5:5 exaltation—Jb 40:10 + 5 times; cstr. גְּאוֹן Lv 26:19 + 31 times; sf. גְּאוֹנְךָ etc. Ex 15:7 + 9 times; pl. sf. גְּאוֹנָ֑יִךְ Ez 16:56;—
   1. exaltation, majesty, excellence,
   a. of nations, their wealth, power, magnificence of buildings, e.g. Egypt Ez 32:12, Chaldeans Is 13:11, 19; 14:11, Philistines Zc 9:6, Assyria Zc 10:11, Jacob; ψ 47:5 Am 6:8; 8:7 Na 2:3, Israel Ho 5:5; 7:10 (prob. appellation of י׳), Na 2:3, Judah Je 13:9, Jerusalem v 9 Ez 16:56; גְּאוֹן עֻזָּהּ pride of her strength Ez 30:6, 18; 33:28; גאון עזים Ez 7:24 (but Ew Hi Co read עזם); גאון עזכם Lv 26:19; Ez 24:21; the fruit of land of Judah will become לגאון ולתפארת majestic and beautiful Is 4:2; גאון כל צבי the majesty of all the splendour (of Tyre) Is 23:9; Zion is to become גאון עולם an everlasting excellency Is 60:15.
   b. of God Ex 15:7; Is 24:14; Mi 5:3; הֲדַר גְּאֹנוֹ Is 2:10, 19, 21; יַרְעֵם בְּקוֹל גְּאוֹנוֹ Jb 37:4; עֲדֵה נָא גָּאוֹן וָגֹבַהּ Jb 40:10.
   c. גאון הירדן majesty of the Jordan, referring to the green and shady banks, clothed with willows, tamarisks, and cane, in which the lions made their covert Je 49:19; 50:44; Zc 11:3, and therefore dangerous Je 12:5 (Ew thinks of the swelling of its agitated waters); גְּאוֹן גַּלֶּיךָ majesty of thy waves Jb 38:11.
   2. pride (bad sense) Jb 35:12 ψ 59:13; Pr 8:13; 16:18; Ez 7:20; 16:49 Zp 2:10; of Moab Is 16:6(×2) = Je 48:29(×2).

Source: מקור: BDB Dictionary
Creator: יוצר: F. Brown, S. Driver & C. Briggs

--------
This is the etymological info from Klein based on the g-a-h root

גאה to be proud, to rise up, be high.
— Qal - גָּאָה 1 rose up; 2 grew up; 3 was exalted.
— Pi. - גֵּאָה he exalted, glorified.
— Nith. - נִתְגָּאָה 1 he prided himself, boasted; 2 he exalted.
— Hiph. - הִגְאָה he raised, lifted. [Aram. גְּאָה (= was proud), Syr. and Mand. אֶתְגַּאי (= was boastful, was proud). cp. Egypt g’y (= to be high).] Derivatives: גֵּאָה, גֵּאֶה, גַּאֲוָה, גָּאוֹן, גַּאֲוָן, גֵּאוּת, גְּאֵיוֹן, גַּאַוְתָן, הִתְגָּאוּת.

------------
I find it curious that a word which has such positive potential and use in the text is used in some places (including the Proverbs use) as a negative. The Malbim writes that it has to do with someone's rasing himself to a level/desgree beyond what he should, so it isn't about having proud in who you are but claiming a level you don't deserve. The positive meaning then has to do with celebrating that which is deserved while the negative is about celebrating that which hasn't been earned.

"Pride" therefore is not generally a negative idea, but one which can be misused.

Does anyone who understands the Greek know what word is used there and if it captures the potential for both the positive and negative or if it is a word which carries only the negative denotation.

Thanks.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

I have been thinking about teh verse from Proverbs (16:18) which is often translated as "Pride goes before destruction" or something to that effect.

The Hebrew is לִפְנֵי־שֶׁ֥בֶר גָּא֑וֹן
Lifnei (in front of, in the face of, before)
Shever (the breaking of, the destruction of)
Ga'on

The third word is puzzling to me. Teh Hebrew word Ga'on means a variety of things. First I will cut and paste the definition and examples that Sefaria has as the default meaning

גָּאוֹן (n-m) heb

1. 1. • exaltation, majesty, pride
        1. • majesty, exaltation, excellence
             1. • of nations
                • of God
                • of the Jordan
           • pride, arrogance (bad sense)

Source: מקור: Open Scriptures on GitHub
Creator: יוצר: Based on the work of Larry Pierce at the Online Bible
† גָּאוֹן

1. n.m. Ho 5:5 exaltation—Jb 40:10 + 5 times; cstr. גְּאוֹן Lv 26:19 + 31 times; sf. גְּאוֹנְךָ etc. Ex 15:7 + 9 times; pl. sf. גְּאוֹנָ֑יִךְ Ez 16:56;—
   1. exaltation, majesty, excellence,
   a. of nations, their wealth, power, magnificence of buildings, e.g. Egypt Ez 32:12, Chaldeans Is 13:11, 19; 14:11, Philistines Zc 9:6, Assyria Zc 10:11, Jacob; ψ 47:5 Am 6:8; 8:7 Na 2:3, Israel Ho 5:5; 7:10 (prob. appellation of י׳), Na 2:3, Judah Je 13:9, Jerusalem v 9 Ez 16:56; גְּאוֹן עֻזָּהּ pride of her strength Ez 30:6, 18; 33:28; גאון עזים Ez 7:24 (but Ew Hi Co read עזם); גאון עזכם Lv 26:19; Ez 24:21; the fruit of land of Judah will become לגאון ולתפארת majestic and beautiful Is 4:2; גאון כל צבי the majesty of all the splendour (of Tyre) Is 23:9; Zion is to become גאון עולם an everlasting excellency Is 60:15.
   b. of God Ex 15:7; Is 24:14; Mi 5:3; הֲדַר גְּאֹנוֹ Is 2:10, 19, 21; יַרְעֵם בְּקוֹל גְּאוֹנוֹ Jb 37:4; עֲדֵה נָא גָּאוֹן וָגֹבַהּ Jb 40:10.
   c. גאון הירדן majesty of the Jordan, referring to the green and shady banks, clothed with willows, tamarisks, and cane, in which the lions made their covert Je 49:19; 50:44; Zc 11:3, and therefore dangerous Je 12:5 (Ew thinks of the swelling of its agitated waters); גְּאוֹן גַּלֶּיךָ majesty of thy waves Jb 38:11.
   2. pride (bad sense) Jb 35:12 ψ 59:13; Pr 8:13; 16:18; Ez 7:20; 16:49 Zp 2:10; of Moab Is 16:6(×2) = Je 48:29(×2).

Source: מקור: BDB Dictionary
Creator: יוצר: F. Brown, S. Driver & C. Briggs

--------
This is the etymological info from Klein based on the g-a-h root

גאה to be proud, to rise up, be high.
— Qal - גָּאָה 1 rose up; 2 grew up; 3 was exalted.
— Pi. - גֵּאָה he exalted, glorified.
— Nith. - נִתְגָּאָה 1 he prided himself, boasted; 2 he exalted.
— Hiph. - הִגְאָה he raised, lifted. [Aram. גְּאָה (= was proud), Syr. and Mand. אֶתְגַּאי (= was boastful, was proud). cp. Egypt g’y (= to be high).] Derivatives: גֵּאָה, גֵּאֶה, גַּאֲוָה, גָּאוֹן, גַּאֲוָן, גֵּאוּת, גְּאֵיוֹן, גַּאַוְתָן, הִתְגָּאוּת.

------------
I find it curious that a word which has such positive potential and use in the text is used in some places (including the Proverbs use) as a negative. The Malbim writes that it has to do with someone's rasing himself to a level/desgree beyond what he should, so it isn't about having proud in who you are but claiming a level you don't deserve. The positive meaning then has to do with celebrating that which is deserved while the negative is about celebrating that which hasn't been earned.

"Pride" therefore is not generally a negative idea, but one which can be misused.

Does anyone who understands the Greek know what word is used there and if it captures the potential for both the positive and negative or if it is a word which carries only the negative denotation.

Thanks.

I'm sorry that I can't offer any knowledge of Greek to add to this conversation, but I do wonder whether the verse that immediately follows Proverbs 16:18 can provide some context?

The Hebrew word translated as "the haughty" (or "the proud") is גאים which comes from the root word of גאה in the etymology you provided. This suggests to me that, whether deserved or not, pride is still being being viewed in a negative sense at least within the context of these passages from Proverbs -- and intentionally done so in order to emphasize pride's opposition to the positivity of humbleness.

 

[rosends]

I'm sorry that I can't offer any knowledge of Greek to add to this conversation, but I do wonder whether the verse that immediately follows Proverbs 16:18 can provide some context?

View attachment 78501
The Hebrew word translated as "the haughty" (or "the proud") is גאים which comes from the root word of גאה in the etymology you provided. This suggests to me that, whether deserved or not, pride is still being being viewed in a negative sense at least within the context of these passages from Proverbs -- and intentionally done so in order to emphasize pride's opposition to the positivity of humbleness.

The Malbim doesn't comment on that verse so one wonders if he would see any subsequent verse as operating under the same categorization -- one should not align himself with those who lay claim to more than they deserve. Many commentators talk about the proud ones in this verse as victors in a war, taking what they earned, which would be separate from the Malbim's understanding.

 

[dybmh]

( I'm just googling, and researching, sharing what I'm finding... )

The Greek translation chose hybris ( Hubris ) for גאון in proverbs 16:18.

​

לפני־שבר גאון​

before destruction gaon, .​

​

πρὸ συντριβῆς ἡγεῖται ὕβρις​

Before destruction comes hybris​

​

There's an interesting comparison with Proverbs 8:13

​

יראת יהוה שנאת רע גאה וגאון​

The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; gaieh, and gaon​

​

φόβος Κυρίου μισεῖ ἀδικίαν, ὕβριν τε καὶ ὑπερηφανίαν​

Fear of the Lord hates evil, hybrin (accusative-Hybris), hyperphanian​

So, it's unclear precisely how intense gaon is intended based on the greek. It does seem to be consistently negative, though. In 16:18, the greek makes it intense, hubris. In 8:13, there's a distinction between gaieh, hubris, and the less intense? gaon, hyperphanian, lit. over-appearing. But that assumes that the word order was preserved Hebrew to greek.

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ὑπερηφανία - pride/arrogance (n.)

Publicly editable dictionary of the Greek New Testament and Septuagint • υπερηφανια • hUPERHFANIA • huperēphania

lexicon.katabiblon.com

There is a word for proper pride in greek it seems. μεγαλοψυχία, megalopsychia, which Aristotle claims is a virtue and contrasts with hubris in Nicomachean Ethics. I haven't been able to verify this reference. But it makes sense, and fits with the common understanding of hubris.

megalopsychia - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.m.wiktionary.org

 

[rosends]

( I'm just googling, and researching, sharing what I'm finding... )

The Greek translation chose hybris ( Hubris ) for גאון in proverbs 16:18.

​

לפני־שבר גאון​

before destruction gaon, .​

​

πρὸ συντριβῆς ἡγεῖται ὕβρις​

Before destruction comes hybris​

​

There's an interesting comparison with Proverbs 8:13

​

יראת יהוה שנאת רע גאה וגאון​

The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; gaieh, and gaon​

​

φόβος Κυρίου μισεῖ ἀδικίαν, ὕβριν τε καὶ ὑπερηφανίαν​

Fear of the Lord hates evil, hybrin (accusative-Hybris), hyperphanian​

So, it's unclear precisely how intense gaon is intended based on the greek. It does seem to be consistently negative, though. In 16:18, the greek makes it intense, hubris. In 8:13, there's a distinction between gaieh, hubris, and the less intense? gaon, hyperphanian, lit. over-appearing. But that assumes that the word order was preserved Hebrew to greek.

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ὑπερηφανία - pride/arrogance (n.)

Publicly editable dictionary of the Greek New Testament and Septuagint • υπερηφανια • hUPERHFANIA • huperēphania

lexicon.katabiblon.com

There is a word for proper pride in greek it seems. μεγαλοψυχία, megalopsychia, which Aristotle claims is a virtue and contrasts with hubris in Nicomachean Ethics. I haven't been able to verify this reference. But it makes sense, and fits with the common understanding of hubris.

megalopsychia - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.m.wiktionary.org

Very interesting -- can you look at the situations in which the root is used in a positive way and see if a different Greek word is used?

 

[syo]

Nice!

 

[dybmh]

Very interesting -- can you look at the situations in which the root is used in a positive way and see if a different Greek word is used?

Assuming the word order is maintained between the Hebrew and greek:

Exodus 15:7

​

וברב גאונך​

And in the greatness of your excellency....​

​

καὶ τῷ πλήθει τῆς δόξης ( doxes - glory / splendor / magnificence )​

δόξα - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.m.wiktionary.org

Job 40:10

עדה נא גאון​

Deck yourself now with majesty...​

​

ἀνάλαβε δὴ ὕψος ( hypsos - upper summit - 4th def: pride? )​

ὕψος - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.m.wiktionary.org

Psalms 47:4

את גאון יעקב​

the pride of Jacob ...​

​

τὴν καλλονὴν (kallonen - excellence/beauty) ᾿Ιακώβ​

κάλλος - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.m.wiktionary.org

 

[rosends]

Assuming the word order is maintained between the Hebrew and greek:

Exodus 15:7

​

וברב גאונך​

And in the greatness of your excellency....​

​

καὶ τῷ πλήθει τῆς δόξης ( doxes - glory / splendor / magnificence )​

δόξα - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.m.wiktionary.org

Job 40:10

עדה נא גאון​

Deck yourself now with majesty...​

​

ἀνάλαβε δὴ ὕψος ( hypsos - upper summit - 4th def: pride? )​

ὕψος - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.m.wiktionary.org

Psalms 47:4

את גאון יעקב​

the pride of Jacob ...​

​

τὴν καλλονὴν (kallonen - excellence/beauty) ᾿Ιακώβ​

κάλλος - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.m.wiktionary.org

so it seems like the Greek chooses words that carry the positive when the sentiment is positive. does that seem like a reasonable conclusion to draw?

 

[wellwisher]

We have two centers of consciousness; inner self and ego. Pride is connected to the ego. Because pride is ego-centric, pride can cause the ego to inflate and lose track of it proper place in practical reality.

In the current Liberal culture, pride is about the ego claiming credit, for simply being different as though that is a major accomplishment. Everyone gets a trophy for being different. It is more designed to inflate the ego than help one come to a sense a inner balance, that the inner self can offer.

The Bible saying; pride comes before the fall, is about how an inflated sense of ego, does not properly equate itself within hard reality. This often results in the ego being brought back to earth when it has to confront hard reality; fall from the inflated air.

Interestingly, there are pride months and pride days for all the various Left wing groups. The group that is missing and/or is not allowed to have pride is the white Christian straight male, even though this collective group has more than it share of accomplishments throughout history. Pride is being reserved for those who need to feel higher, instead of for those who have achieved higher. However, it is being sold as the reverse, to inflate the ego beyond reality, digging a hole for others so they can appear to shrink; relative reference illusion for ego inflation.

Pride is not be good in the long term, since one can lose touch with practical reality, unless everyone is dumbed down, goes along and/or everyone is forced to applaud. This makes pride vulnerable since not everyone wants to lose touch with reality, even to help others stay out of touch with reality.

 

[dybmh]

so it seems like the Greek chooses words that carry the positive when the sentiment is positive. does that seem like a reasonable conclusion to draw?

Yup, I checked a few more times looking for counter examples, and I found none.

 

[wellwisher]

Pride is connected to a neural affect I like to refer to as mental masturbation. This is where the ego self stimulates the brain with memories, with a strong feeling tag, to reproduce similar neural limbic chemicals, that can recreate that positive sense of ego. This of itself is not bad. However, since it is rooted in the induced feelings tones first and not sensory reality, first, it can extrapolate and may not properly remain associated with sensory reality.

In that sense, it may feel good, but it might not be in touch with reality. In Proverbs, this induced state of feelings, is often associated with stumbling, when it is confronted by hard reality. Humility, which is the opposite of pride, does not give as strong of a mental masturbation buzz, which allows reason to stay more in touch with reality; beginning of wisdom.

The parallel of pride to a type of mental masturbation fantasy, is useful since both may get you to a climax of feeling, but neither is exactly real or based exactly on tangible reality. Pride can become annoying to others, which is why the white Christian straight male is not allowed to have pride, since it will get annoying. This can be true of all pride, when overdone and inflated by fantasy; back lash to force a confrontation with reality.

Feeling proud of your tangible accomplishments is different in the sense that the feelings have a direct reality connection; real time accomplishment induced feeling. You hit the home run, win the game, and that gets the crowd cheering, which makes you feel good. This pride is in real time. The masturbation begins when this memory is later transferred to fantasy, for self pleasure loops that start to revise history.

The former can get respect, since the accomplishments are real and others can feel proud of you and for you, but the latter gets old for others. Nobody want to watch others who are stuck in glory days self pleasure mode, since it is being distorted for self pleasure. They want you to watch to add to the buzz. Like masturbation wherefantasy can get increasingly bizarre to get that buzz, pride can lose touch with the joys of natural simplicity; reality.

Note; when the brain writes to memory feeling tags are added to sensory content. Our memory has both feeling and sensory content. This writing scheme allows us to approach our memory from either side; feeling first or sensory content first. This allows us to use both sides of then brain.

The difference between the two paths is there are only a limited number of feeling tags, which are recycled for other similar things. Whereas, there are endless sensory combinations. Mental masturbation uses feeling first with the confusion often connected to that core feeling bringing up other memories that use the same tag; divergence confusion use to maintain the buzz.

The political left is about emotions first; feelings, and confusion of sensory common sense. If the buzz is too important, you may do harm to yourself and others and not feel like it; dual standards. This may be needed to get others to force a reality confrontation, which is blamed on others.