Predestination

[MM21]

I would argue that the Bible doesn't teach predestination at all. Can you cite some passages that you think do teach this? As far as I can see the whole idea is a Reformation era one and its greatest proponent was Calvin. I can't see any hint of predestination (and foreknowledge is certainly not the same thing) in any of the Church Fathers or even in Scripture.

James

Ephesians 1:3-5 "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with ihs pleasure and will--" I'm pretty sure you have a Bible, I'm not up to typing the wohle Bible right now, but Rom. 8:28-30 Paul uses the word predestined twice.
I agree there is a difference between foreknowlegde and forordaining. It seems Calvin in the reformation era, only brought out a new idea. Possibly nobody else has thought about? Predistantion seems to be a theme...but then again, its only how an individual interprets scripture. I just like to keep an open mind, into what it truly is saying.

 

[James the Persian]

Ephesians 1:3-5 "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with ihs pleasure and will--" I'm pretty sure you have a Bible, I'm not up to typing the wohle Bible right now, but Rom. 8:28-30 Paul uses the word predestined twice.
I agree there is a difference between foreknowlegde and forordaining. It seems Calvin in the reformation era, only brought out a new idea. Possibly nobody else has thought about? Predistantion seems to be a theme...but then again, its only how an individual interprets scripture. I just like to keep an open mind, into what it truly is saying.

Sounds to me like you actually agree with me and are just using predestination to mean foreknowledge. I won't do that as it fudges the issue. There is a great distinction between foreknowledge as it implies no coercion and predestination a la Calvin. God can, of course, choose us in the way the passage you quoted says, but we are still free to reject Him, as Scripture also shows. Predestination is inconsonant with this idea and denies our free will.

James

 

[MM21]

Sounds to me like you actually agree with me and are just using predestination to mean foreknowledge. I won't do that as it fudges the issue. There is a great distinction between foreknowledge as it implies no coercion and predestination a la Calvin. God can, of course, choose us in the way the passage you quoted says, but we are still free to reject Him, as Scripture also shows. Predestination is inconsonant with this idea and denies our free will.

James

Yea, it seems we are on the same page, although I do agree w/predestination. In predestination there still is free will. God has predestined a plan for me, I can still choose whether or not to walk that path. You disagree?

 

[James the Persian]

Yea, it seems we are on the same page, although I do agree w/predestination. In predestination there still is free will. God has predestined a plan for me, I can still choose whether or not to walk that path. You disagree?

I disagree with your use of the word predestination but not with the substance of your belief. It is the idea that we are predestined to salvation or damnation (as Calvin et al believed) and that nothing we can do, neither good works nor belief, can sway God in any way to change that fate that I object to. God pours out His grace on all and wills that all men be saved, not just an elect few. We are free to respond by following or rejecting Him and the fact that He knows what we shall ultimately do is foreknowledge not predestination. I find predestination (as espoused by Calvin, as you seem to use it in some much weaker way) to be probably the most abhorrent heresy ever invented by any Christian group - and I genuinely do feel that way. This is not exaggeration for efect.

James

 

[MM21]

I disagree with your use of the word predestination but not with the substance of your belief. It is the idea that we are predestined to salvation or damnation (as Calvin et al believed) and that nothing we can do, neither good works nor belief, can sway God in any way to change that fate that I object to. God pours out His grace on all and wills that all men be saved, not just an elect few. We are free to respond by following or rejecting Him and the fact that He knows what we shall ultimately do is foreknowledge not predestination. I find predestination (as espoused by Calvin, as you seem to use it in some much weaker way) to be probably the most abhorrent heresy ever invented by any Christian group - and I genuinely do feel that way. This is not exaggeration for efect.

James

Ohh ok, no, Biblically the word predestination has nothing to do with whether or not we are going to heaven or hell. I do not believe God will damn people to heaven or hell on his choice. Then again, He is God and if he wants, he can. I use the word predestination in reference to those who are already "in Christ" as in the context of the passage in which Paul was writting to the people in Ephesus. (Eph 1:3-5) Yea, we agree on this predestination thing, I was a bit confused on the prior post of yours :sorry1: . I think most people confuse the word predestination with election...

 

[morgainesapphire]

In my opinion, it's very complicated. I think somethings are supposed to happen, but that is on a global scale. On a personal scale, I have had prophetic dreams most of the time I don't realize it until the event happens. So is that predestination? To a certain extent yes. You have a number of paths that you could go down, depending on which road you take will determine the course of events in your life.

A good example is that, I feel that I was predestined to meet my boyfriend. We could have me many times throughout the last 7 years, but we weren't ready until 2 months ago.

I have come to the conclusion that there are no coincidences in life. And when you are going down a path that is positive and good for you, you will know it there will be coincidences that you cannot explain.

This doesn't take away your free will. And I believe that it works well with quantum theory. It's no different than multiple dimensions or universes and so on. I could be wrong.

Anyhow, man I hope this makes sense. It's getting late for me, a 3rd shift person.

Morgaine