Posting a Variety of Religious Doctrine in Government Buildings

[The Voice of Reason]

Here's a question for the fundamentalists that want to post the Ten Commandments in a courthouse, or have prayer put back in school:

Would you be willing to support those that have other belief systems inject their dogma in government buildings or schools? For example:
Post the Islamic equivalent of the Ten Commandments (I don't know what that would be) in your local courthouse?
An atheistic proclamation that there is no God, written in granite and displayed at the entrance to the courthouse?
The lone Jewish kid in your son's fifth grade class leading prayer in Hebrew?
A kid that is agnostic have his turn to lead the class in denying any evidence for the existence of God?
A kid that has parents that practice Buddhism read some writings from Buddha instead of prayer?

Just asking,
TVOR

 

[Humble_servant]

These questions have very simple awnsers. If I didn't want to read this post I could have just closed out of the screen. If someone doesn't wan't to read the Ten Commandments than they have the great American Freedom to just not read it. Not to mention that's dangerous policy. Our country was founded on God, what does that tell him when we're saying,"Thanks for our great nation lord, but it looks like we won't be needing you anymore". As for the school issue, it's not a matter of kid's leading prayer in school. We never did that. When they took prayer out of school, that meant that my son couldn't pray quietly over his meal at lunch, bothering no one. It means that he can't join a bible study after school as a extra curricular activity, which would be a choice for whoever attended. These issues are just extremest trying to bend the constitution to their liking. Just one man's opinion.

 

[Cr0wley]

I agree with Humble_servant, but in response to your questions, if you're against the ten commandmants forced down on people, why am I forced to sit through a lecture on Darwin's Theory of Evolution in my Biology lesson? It's not fact, so why do they teach it?

 

[Pah]

These questions have very simple awnsers. If I didn't want to read this post I could have just closed out of the screen. If someone doesn't wan't to read the Ten Commandments than they have the great American Freedom to just not read it. Not to mention that's dangerous policy. Our country was founded on God, what does that tell him when we're saying,"Thanks for our great nation lord, but it looks like we won't be needing you anymore". As for the school issue, it's not a matter of kid's leading prayer in school. We never did that. When they took prayer out of school, that meant that my son couldn't pray quietly over his meal at lunch, bothering no one. It means that he can't join a bible study after school as a extra curricular activity, which would be a choice for whoever attended. These issues are just extremest trying to bend the constitution to their liking. Just one man's opinion.

The reason your example carries no argumentative weight is that you are not involuntarily situated at your compter. A child is forced by law to attend school and forced to follow the approved curriculum.

I have a greater freedom than just not reading the Ten Commandments and that is a prohibition, secured by the people, to have the government push it in my face.

Our country was not founded on God or by God. Men did it acting with the background of common law. Since it was brought up, I answered it - but that subject, already in many threads, belongs in yet another since there still seems to be a persistant lack of knowlege regarding out founding.

You misinterpret what your child can or can not do regarding prayer in school. Private, silent prayer has always been allowed. To claim NO prayer is disengious.

You are absolutely wrong about bible reading as an extra-curricular activity. It is allowed and on school property, after school, and not sponsered by the school.

 

[Engyo]

When they took prayer out of school, that meant that my son couldn't pray quietly over his meal at lunch, bothering no one. It means that he can't join a bible study after school as a extra curricular activity, which would be a choice for whoever attended. These issues are just extremest trying to bend the constitution to their liking. Just one man's opinion.

There are extra-curricular Bible-study groups which meet at my daughter's high school. No one has ever stopped her from praying privately; what is not permissible is prayer over the PA system to all classes, or a teacher leading prayers in class. My daughter is Buddhist; she chants (privately) at school, and no one has said anything. However, if Christian prayers are read aloud, then she has the right to hear Buddhist prayers occasionally as well. There are also Muslim students at her school, as well as Hindu ones. Either all are served, or none should be. Do you believe Christian students have MORE rights to hear their version of spirituality to the exclusion of others?

 

[Pah]

I agree with Humble_servant, but in response to your questions, if you're against the ten commandmants forced down on people, why am I forced to sit through a lecture on Darwin's Theory of Evolution in my Biology lesson? It's not fact, so why do they teach it?

Because evolution is fundemental to the science of biology whereas your association of it to a religious tenet is not.

 

[Melody]

I agree with Humble_servant, but in response to your questions, if you're against the ten commandmants forced down on people, why am I forced to sit through a lecture on Darwin's Theory of Evolution in my Biology lesson? It's not fact, so why do they teach it?

Crowley,
Teaching evolution in school and putting the 10 commandments in an office building are two separate issues. The old comparing apples with oranges.

Let's compare apples with apples. I think the 10 commandments are a good moral compass and don't see how anyone can have a problem with them *but* that is because they are within my Christian moral code. For those who have other moral codes (atheists, agnostics, pagans, etc.), some of these commandments (i.e. thou shalt have no other gods before me) hold no meaning.

At first I thought, so? Just ignore them then. Then I looked at it from a different view. If we allow the 10 commandments, then it seems we should allow the 5 Pillars of Islam. Apologies to the muslims if these are wrong, as I pulled them off a website:

1. To bear witness that there is none worthy of worship save Allah and that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the Messenger of Allah.
2. To observe Prayer (Salat).
3. To Pay Zakat (Alms giving)
4. To perform the Pilgrimage to the House of Allah (Hajj).
5. To Observe fasting during Ramadhan." (Bukhari)

I have a problem with #1,4 and 5. Or how about the 5 precepts of Buddhism? Again, apologies to the Buddhists if I have it wrong:

1. I will be mindful and reverential with all life, I will not be violent nor will I kill.​

2. I will respect the property of others, I will not steal.​

3. I will be conscious and loving in my relationships, I will not give way to lust.​

4. I will honor honesty and truth, I will not deceive.
5. I will exercise proper care of my body and mind, I will not be gluttonous nor abuse intoxicants.

I like these and don't see how there could possibly be a complaint from any quarter *but* know many people (christian and non-christian) who would have a problem with them just because they're "buddhist precepts."

Since we are not a christian theocracy, then our government cannot reflect just the christian view without disenfranchising a huge portion of our population. Our country was founded by people searching for religious freedom. I'd hate to see us go backwards.

 

[Melody]

If someone doesn't wan't to read the Ten Commandments than they have the great American Freedom to just not read it. Not to mention that's dangerous policy. Our country was founded on God, what does that tell him when we're saying,"Thanks for our great nation lord, but it looks like we won't be needing you anymore".

HS,
So since our country was "founded on God", and since both muslims and buddhists believe in God....you'd have no problem with them posting a copy of the 5 Pillars of Islam and the 5 Moral Precepts of Buddhists right alongside the 10 Commandments?

 

[Engyo]

HS,
So since our country was "founded on God", and since both muslims and buddhists believe in God....you'd have no problem with them posting a copy of the 5 Pillars of Islam and the 5 Moral Precepts of Buddhists right alongside the 10 Commandments?

Oops, Melody -

I think there is a bit of misstatement above; unintentional I am sure. Most Buddhists do not believe in God in the Christian sense of the word; there are some things which may be analogous, depending on the specific interpretation, but God as postulated in Christianity or Islam is not a Buddhist concept generally.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Two different issues...

I would LOVE to see other texts on public buildings, both secular and religious. That is a part of our HISTORY and to deny those roots just seems simplistic and foolish.

Corporate prayer in schools however goes beyond our roots, and starts to deal with the fabric of our society. A prayer by an authority figure ascribes to it a certain amount of credence which is simply not appropriate.

However, Bible study as well as the study of the Koran and other religions and their books is FINE as long as there is no evangelical slant towards any of the religions being discussed or studied.

 

[Scuba Pete]

BTW, when the Ten Commandments were removed from the Senate Chambers in our Nation's Capital, it was debated as to what to replace them with. At one point a Senator suggested that the 12 points of the Scout Law would be good. It was quickly pointed out that the Scout Laws were far harder to live by than the commandments and so the matter was dropped.

 

[Fat Old Sun]

I would have no problem with a broad representation of ancient laws. That would not seem out of place in a courthouse. When one is displayed prominently, and none of the others are to be found, it could indicate bias. This would be of great concern to me, especially if I was there on business, not pleasure.

In the last couple of years, this has become a bone of contention because of a judge in Alabama. People came to his defense insisting that there was nothing wrong with it. Of course they don't see anything wrong with it, they believe in the 10 commandments! I wonder how they would feel as devout christians, walking into a courthouse to have a judgement passed upon them that will affect the rest of their lives, and walking past a massive block of granite with the Five Pillars of Islam carved into it? How would they feel when they stand in front of that judge waiting to hear whether or not they will be allowed to go home to their families, and hanging on the wall above the judges head for all to see is the Five Pillars of Islam?

They would probably feel the same as I would walking into court as an atheist and seeing religious doctrine displayed prominently, yet no sign of the Constitution. :tsk:

 

[seagull]

Here's a question for the fundamentalists that want to post the Ten Commandments in a courthouse, or have prayer put back in school:

Would you be willing to support those that have other belief systems inject their dogma in government buildings or schools? For example:
Post the Islamic equivalent of the Ten Commandments (I don't know what that would be) in your local courthouse?
An atheistic proclamation that there is no God, written in granite and displayed at the entrance to the courthouse?
The lone Jewish kid in your son's fifth grade class leading prayer in Hebrew?
A kid that is agnostic have his turn to lead the class in denying any evidence for the existence of God?
A kid that has parents that practice Buddhism read some writings from Buddha instead of prayer?

Just asking,
TVOR

If Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and those other intolerant American embarrassments must post the Ten Commandments in a courthouse, then every version of the Ten Commandments must be placed in every courthouse. But then it isn't a courthouse anymore -- they become taxpayer-supported churches.

To answer your questions, though, I'd be happy with including everything you just asked for if those that use God as a weapon must have the Ten Commandments displayed on any government property.

 

[seagull]

These questions have very simple awnsers. If I didn't want to read this post I could have just closed out of the screen. If someone doesn't wan't to read the Ten Commandments than they have the great American Freedom to just not read it.

Yes, I suppose you have the right to choose not to read the Ten Commandments. But, then again, you also have the right to not have which religion you support chosen for you.

Not to mention that's dangerous policy. Our country was founded on God, what does that tell him when we're saying,"Thanks for our great nation lord, but it looks like we won't be needing you anymore".

I would like to know how you came to that conclusion.

As for the school issue, it's not a matter of kid's leading prayer in school. We never did that. When they took prayer out of school, that meant that my son couldn't pray quietly over his meal at lunch, bothering no one.

Where are your facts backing up that assertion?

It means that he can't join a bible study after school as a extra curricular activity, which would be a choice for whoever attended.

Good fear tactic, however, you are wrong.

These issues are just extremest trying to bend the constitution to their liking. Just one man's opinion.

Unfortunately your opinions are based on flawed data.

 

[Melody]

Oops, Melody -

I think there is a bit of misstatement above; unintentional I am sure. Most Buddhists do not believe in God in the Christian sense of the word; there are some things which may be analogous, depending on the specific interpretation, but God as postulated in Christianity or Islam is not a Buddhist concept generally.

Thanks Engyo. I thought about that after I sent it. I thought I had remembered you saying that Buddhists didn't believe in God in the same sense. Sorry.

 

[Fat Old Sun]

As for the school issue, it's not a matter of kid's leading prayer in school. We never did that. When they took prayer out of school, that meant that my son couldn't pray quietly over his meal at lunch, bothering no one.

Words have much more impact when they are based on the truth.

Even if it were not allowed, there is no way to stop what goes on between a person's ears. There is no way to stop a quiet prayer over a meal that does not bother anyone, nor is there a way to prove that it was a religious observance if no words were uttered.

Reload, Try Again

 

[Humble_servant]

After reading everyones reactions to my coments I did a little bit of research. I admit that I was a little misinformed. I agree that school led prayers should be prohibited because people have different views and ideas. I think that the moment of silence idea is a great substitution. I do think that since religion has surrounded humanity as far back as history goes, schools should provide unbiased education on ALL religious sects in a historical sense. Upon thinking more about the Ten Comandments, I would love to see other religious bi-laws posted. This would be a great step toward toleration of others beliefs.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

I just frubaled you. I admire your willingness to review your position on this subject.

TVOR