Possible excommunication of scientists by Vatican

[maggie2]

ROME, June 30 — Scientists who engage in stem cell research using human embryos should be subject to excommunication from the Catholic Church, according to a senior Vatican official.


Cardinal Alfonso López Trujillo, who heads the group that proposes family-related policy for the Church, said in an interview with the Catholic weekly Famiglia Cristiana published on Thursday that stem cell researchers should be punished in the same way as women who have abortions and doctors who perform them.
"Destroying an embryo is equivalent to abortion," said the cardinal. "Excommunication is valid for the women, the doctors and researchers who destroy embryos."
It was unclear if the pope supported the position, and the Vatican did not return calls for comment. But such blunt remarks from a powerful cardinal just a week before the Church convenes a huge meeting to discuss the topic could foreshadow a hardening of Vatican policy on the issue, experts said.

Rest of the story here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/30/world/europe/30cnd-vatican.html?hp&ex=1151726400&en=367f3164348d9adb&ei=5094&partner=homepage

What do you think?

 

[Quiddity]

ROME, June 30 — Scientists who engage in stem cell research using human embryos should be subject to excommunication from the Catholic Church, according to a senior Vatican official.


Cardinal Alfonso López Trujillo, who heads the group that proposes family-related policy for the Church, said in an interview with the Catholic weekly Famiglia Cristiana published on Thursday that stem cell researchers should be punished in the same way as women who have abortions and doctors who perform them.
"Destroying an embryo is equivalent to abortion," said the cardinal. "Excommunication is valid for the women, the doctors and researchers who destroy embryos."
It was unclear if the pope supported the position, and the Vatican did not return calls for comment. But such blunt remarks from a powerful cardinal just a week before the Church convenes a huge meeting to discuss the topic could foreshadow a hardening of Vatican policy on the issue, experts said.

Rest of the story here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/30/world/europe/30cnd-vatican.html?hp&ex=1151726400&en=367f3164348d9adb&ei=5094&partner=homepage

What do you think?

New York Times eh?
It would be extremely helpful if the New York Times provided the document that was presented by the PAS for Bishop review.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/

Until then, I will assume it merely news.

 

[royol]

And they should consider themselves lucky, not so long ago they could have been killed for going against the church.

 

[ChrisP]

And they should consider themselves lucky, not so long ago they could have been killed for going against the church.

Could you please qualify that rather than posting it as an inflammatory statement.

When was the last time the catholic church killed a scientist, and why?

 

[royol]

Could you please qualify that rather than posting it as an inflammatory statement.

When was the last time the catholic church killed a scientist, and why?

I think it was called the 'Inquisition'
There were four major movements, starting with the Medieval Inquisition in 1184 and ending with the Spanish Inquisition in 1834.

 

[ChrisP]

Right, and where in those times were people killed for advocating science? From what I understand most of those people were imprisoned or killed for political reasons, not for studying things.

Please relate your comments to this topic, because otherwise we'll have to move into another thread. Derailing this one does a disservice to the OP.

I'm sure this has been debated previously, maybe we could go take a look through some other threads.

 

[royol]

Had they said the Earth revolved around the Sun, I think they just might have been killed.
They could not have people spreading things like that, it was against the churches teachings

 

[ChrisP]

From the article :

ardinal Alfonso López Trujillo, who heads the group that proposes family-related policy for the Church, said in an interview with the Catholic weekly Famiglia Cristiana published on Thursday that stem cell researchers should be punished in the same way as women who have abortions and doctors who perform them. "Destroying an embryo is equivalent to abortion," said the cardinal. "Excommunication is valid for the women, the doctors and researchers who destroy embryos."
It was unclear if the pope supported the position, and the Vatican did not return calls for comment. But such blunt remarks from a powerful cardinal just a week before the Church convenes a huge meeting to discuss the topic could foreshadow a hardening of Vatican policy on the issue, experts said.

So, I guess we shall see.

 

[Simon Gnosis]

Been there...boring.

I was bought up a Roman Catholic and then I got myself excommunicated 10 years ago for saying publically 1 Jesus could not be God and 2 that the Pope and his bishops do not have any divine authority over man.

My grandfather (a scientist) was also excommunicated (and imprisoned)..not for heresy though..for communism.

The catholic church doesnt deserve any scientists in its congregations.
They have too much to answer for.
I am strongly opposed to the RC church.

Duh...obviously.

 

[ChrisP]

Had they said the Earth revolved around the Sun, I think they just might have been killed.
They could not have people spreading things like that, it was against the churches teachings

At the risk of sounding like Jayhawker, at the moment your repeating yourself please provide anything that shows this happened. Saying something doesn't make it true.

I understand you've linked me to some basic sites on the inquistion, and to be frank I'm no fan of old school Catholicism, but I've seen nothing anywhere to back up your claims, or to relate them in any way to this possible change in Vatican policy.

 

[royol]

And since when has it been OK for other people to decide how you live your life?
If the Anti-Abortion lobby had to contribute to the upbringing of the unaborted children, I don't think we would hear from them.

 

[Simon Gnosis]

The Roman Catholic church is right about one thing.

Abortion is murder.

Using healthy foetuses for stem cell research does constitute murder in my book of ethics.

So despite my early post on the subject of excommunication, I do side with them on this one.

Stem cells can be taken from adults.

 

[royol]

At the risk of sounding like Jayhawker, at the moment your repeating yourself please provide anything that shows this happened. Saying something doesn't make it true.

I understand you've linked me to some basic sites on the inquistion, and to be frank I'm no fan of old school Catholicism, but I've seen nothing anywhere to back up your claims, or to relate them in any way to this possible change in Vatican policy.

You asked me to provide an instance, I have.
And if I were high up in the Vatican could I change Vatican policy? can they really change how Catholics think and act just by changing the rules?
I suppose Catholicism could truly be called a progressive religion.

 

[Simon Gnosis]

You asked me to provide an instance, I have.
And if I were high up in the Vatican could I change Vatican policy? can they really change how Catholics think and act just by changing the rules?
I suppose Catholicism could truly be called a progressive religion.

The Pope is the voice of God..whom can argue with any papal decrees?

Well me for a start but you know what I mean.

 

[Elvendon]

And since when has it been OK for other people to decide how you live your life?

Since we started living in a society. If everyone had the same "I do whatever I want to" attitude then you would almost certainly have not lived your 60 odd years Royol. You would probably have been murdered by someone who had designs on your stuff.

On topic: I do accept that abortion is sometimes necessary - when the life of the mother is threatened. However, aborting foetuses for lifestyle reasons is utterly cruel and immoral, and destroys whatever potential that foetus had for a flippant and temporary reason.

Stem cells should be taken from adults. I don't know much about it, so I feel I cannot comment. I just hope and pray we discover alternative and equally viable sources for stem cells in the near future.

 

[Fluffy]

Well it certainly seems logical and consistent. I totally disagree with the sentiment behind it but I do not really see a difference between stem cell research and abortion so it would make sense to treat them in the same way. I do assume that special exceptions are reserved for cases of rape, however. Also I had not realised that the Vatican excomunicated doctors and women who had or performed abortions.

 

[royol]

Since we started living in a society. If everyone had the same "I do whatever I want to" attitude then you would almost certainly have not lived your 60 odd years Royol. You would probably have been murdered by someone who had designs on your stuff.

On topic: I do accept that abortion is sometimes necessary - when the life of the mother is threatened. However, aborting foetuses for lifestyle reasons is utterly cruel and immoral, and destroys whatever potential that foetus had for a flippant and temporary reason.

Stem cells should be taken from adults. I don't know much about it, so I feel I cannot comment. I just hope and pray we discover alternative and equally viable sources for stem cells in the near future.

We are talking about religion not society, I asked was it right that someone had the power to change the rules of a religion, nothing to do with society, we must conform to the rules of society, and change the rules as we go, but not the rules of religion,
they should be written down never to be changed, but it would appear they can be changed at the whim of every Pope or high up official in the Vatican, they will be allowing contraception soon, think of all the women that have lived their lives in misery trying to conform to the rules of Catholicism only to find when they are old, the rules have been changed.
The ones with the high morals are usually not the ones affected.

 

[MaddLlama]

For some reason I find it highly unlikely that a large number of scientists working on stem cell research actually are practicing Catholics. Born and baptized Catholic maybe, but, so was I. I doubt this will cause a huge scientist uproar, and it sounds more like the church blowing a lot of hot air around.

 

[Elvendon]

We are talking about religion not society, .

I misunderstood your meaning. Your statement did seem rather broad though, I thought you were slating obedience to anyone

 

[Simon Gnosis]

Well it certainly seems logical and consistent. I totally disagree with the sentiment behind it but I do not really see a difference between stem cell research and abortion so it would make sense to treat them in the same way. I do assume that special exceptions are reserved for cases of rape, however. Also I had not realised that the Vatican excomunicated doctors and women who had or performed abortions.

The Vatican will excommunicate you for all kinds of crimes...
Many years ago the Vatican would excommunicate entire nations lol.

I see you disagree with the 'sentiment' behind abortion/human foetus experimentation...hmm you think its all about sentimentality?

Its about the rule of Law and equality for all.
Who has the right to determine who should live or die?
What kind of society do we want?
One where life is cheap and expendable or one where every human life is protected (by the State/Society) and held sacred above all exploitation, one where unborn infants should deserve the same legal protections as older members of the species.
Hidden in the womb they may be but as individual as you or me the unborn remain.

I have seen a few abortion operations, people use the word foetus a lot i noticed....

They looked like babies to me.

Abortion?...Na...not having it unless there is a damn good reason.
The world becomes overcrowded and people say abortions help.
I say o yeah they are very efficent however sex education and free contraception would have similar effects and would also help eliminate STDs as well so....and this is where me and the church are at odds again it would seem.