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Polygamy- natural ?

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Whilst I certainly would never consider being polygamous, I have often wondered at the fact that it is something that is prevelent in the animal kingdom.

Recent threads have indicated that we human animals consider ourselves so much better than the rest of the animal kingdom, but some of that could well be put down to wishful thinking.
Not being a zoologist, I don't know the statistical ratio of monogonous/poligamous animal, birds, reptiles and insects.

I do know that a male lion who has defeated an older alpha male will mate with the alpha female - but will kill any young that are produced from a union with the previous leader. That is, supposedly, because he wants to be 'master of his own territory' - and there must be no mercy to any part of the pride that does not recognize him as the master.

Monogamy and polygamy depend upon temperament. A monogamous temperament could never be otherwise than monogamous. And there are temperaments that will always have a tendency towards polygamy; no matter how happily placed in life, or how carefully guarded; these naturally seek variety of experience in sex.
In the lower animal creation, the polygamous temperament is seen to predominate. There one male is capable of procreation through a number of females, and in this respect man is no exception.

To permit polygamy is simply to recognize a natural human tendency with frankness. But to permit polygamy does not in any way mean the same as to enjoin polygamy. Muhammad, for instance, advised many temperaments that they should marry one woman only.

To permit polygamy does not mean, either, an interference with the ideal of monogamy, and it certainly need not tend to bring about a decrease in the number of perfectly mated monogamous lives. Among Muslims really monogamous lives are no rarer than among other communities that wish to maintain an appearance of conforming to a more artificial standard of morals. It would not, for instance, be difficult to find Muslim families where the men have been definitely monogamous over a period of four or five generations.

Since the male represents strength and power, his life is not only hazarded in the wars and battles that have existed in all ages, but is also risked in the adventurous sports and dangerous occupations of peace. There is consequently in all communities a greater loss of life in the male than in the female population. Under this disparity of numbers it is a question how far it is a virtue to enforce a system that robs a large number of women of their natural rights, without leaving them any choice in the matter. If it be a virtue it none the less means a loss of members of the community. Actually the average individual does not keep with honesty to such a standard, and so loses the opportunity of procreation without restraining passion. Thus morals are undermined, and prostitution encouraged.

In Afghanistan, which is considered backward in progress by the East, but where polygamy, being a natural tendency, is recognized both by law and religion, there are few instances of sexual crime; prostitution is practically unknown and there are no foundling children.

There are again cases when polygamy from every reasonable point of view seems a necessity. In a marriage, for instance, where the wife is insane, or diseased, or childless. And besides these physical reasons there are intellectual reasons. Looking into life one sees men unlike in all things. Perhaps one man is equal in his physical strength to ten average men; another is intellectually a giant among his fellows. In Sanskrit Mana means mind. And the real man is mind. One mind may be equal to a thousand minds. One mind may be capable of managing innumerable activities, and of supporting innumerable interests.

What are your thoughts ?:)
 

niamhwitch

Celtic Faery Wiccan )O(
I could never be a polygamist (I am just too jealous of a person lol) but I have no problem with it as long as all parties are of a legal age and all agree to this kind of lifestyle. I also feel that it is natural to some and unnatural to others. Thats hard to explain, but I basically feel that for some ppl, being a polygamist is just who they are and being a monogamist is the same. I feel the same for homosexuality, bisexuality, and heterosexuality. But that is just my personal opinion. ;-)
 

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
Personally, I believe there are monogamous humans and non-monogamous humans. There are also non-gamous humans (the ones who don't want any sort of continuing relationship with specific others). I think that the question here is somewhat semantically obtuse (no offense intended). That this is "natural" is indicated by the frequency with which humans do not remain monogamous in the face of societal/cultural pressures to do so. The question is probably better stated as "Can polygamy be examined and found culturally acceptable here in the primarily Christian west, given the human proclivity towards it?"

My personal answer is that I don't believe any human family living arrangement is wrong as long as it provides for support (emotional, physical, financial) of all the members of said family and does not create significant additional amounts of suffering (over and above what those individuals would experience in a culturally normal setting). It is also interesting to note that in order for such arrangements to be culturally normal anywhere, they must be viable, or the custom would have died out very quickly.
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
Humans are technically polygamous. In monogamous mammals, the size and weight ratios between both genders is the same, but in humans, the size and weight ratios vary greatly, like a polygamous animal. (Likely because we were culturally polygamous animals only a few million years ago, or even sooner)

However, I'll say it again, do you what you want. You want to be monogamous? Fine. Polygamous? Fine. Whatever.

Do what you want. :jiggy:

I like the arrangment shown in David Brin's "Uplift" novels. A small group of humans (or chimps, or dolphins) can come together to form family/breeding groups, with more than one female/male. It's hard to explain, but you need to read it to understand. ;)
 

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
Fantastic! Another David Brin fan! Similar concepts also exist in Heinlein's Lazarus Long series......
 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
Humans are meant to be monogamous. The emotional aspect of our beings seperates us and keeps us different from the animals mentioned here. If we had no emotional capabilities, I could see that polygamy could be an option for us, but given our emotional attachements, and the fact that the sexual act, for humans, is a physical sign of an emotion, polygamy then becomes detrimental to our psychosis. It becomes unhealth for us and a detriment to ourselves and therefore society. Personally, I am getting a little bit tired of seeing so much comparison of human to animal. There are to many differences to justify making a legitimate comparison between human and animal sexuality.
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
I believe that humans ARE animals.
Believe? It's a scientific fact. ;)

Why is polygamy unhealthy, Eerwed? I can see no reason why not. If a group of people like polygamy, who are you, or me, to stop them from doing what makes them feel happy?

You cannot assume that because polygamy is distasteful to you that it is to another.

By the way, are we talking about the same polygamy? I mean a group of people who live together, and support each other, emotionally, and any other necessary way. Do you think I am talking about a casual meeting and then never see the person again type of polygamy? I think both are neither good nor bad, and either should be an option, but the first one could be better for society.

I think the only reason one can use against polygamy is that of a religious one, and even that fails when subjected to scrutiny. Many people in the bible had more than one wife (How many rings did they wear? :eek: ). Besides, to place rules on society based on the rules of your religion is to wrong those who are not followers of your religion. In other words, it is to commit bigotry.




:jiggy:
 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
niamhwitch said:
I believe that humans ARE animals.
Humans are mammals, but much different than the animal kingdom. We are seperate, significant and special. Surely you see the obvious differences between humans and all other mammals? If you want to act like an animal, go ahead. Personally I prefer to act and live better than that.
 

Natural Submission

Active Member
While Islam accepts polygamy to a certaim degree, one must bare in mind it was allowed since the time of Adam and his descendants in order to speed up human growth. Islam allows it mainly for times of war. If a woman's husband is killed in battle, one is allowed to take her as his wife in order to take care of her. Remember the setting 14oo years ago in the Arabian desert. This is a time when women were buried face down in the dirt just for being women. Allah/YHWH/God continued to allow men to take more than one wife for protection. However, consider this following verse of the Qur'an:

4:129. And you have it not in your power to do justice between wives, even though you may wish (it), but be not disinclined (from one) with total disinclination, so that you leave her as it were in suspense; and if you effect a reconciliation and guard (against evil), then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

EVEN though it is allowed in some cases, Allah/YHWH/God expounds on the fact that it is not our natural way, and we shouldn't get involved in it unless it is for a good reason.
 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
Druidus said:
Believe? It's a scientific fact. ;)

Why is polygamy unhealthy, Eerwed? I can see no reason why not. If a group of people like polygamy, who are you, or me, to stop them from doing what makes them feel happy?
:jiggy:
I just don't agree with the concept and I don't think that it is a healthy lifestyle to be in. I am not trying to stop or hinder anyone, I am just telling you what I believe, like you asked for. It's not an attack.

Druidus said:
You cannot assume that because polygamy is distasteful to you that it is to another.
I am not assuming anything. I have had this discussion before with numerous people and have found a vast majority agrees with me. Not that might makes right, but I am not assuming, you are.

Besides, to place rules on society based on the rules of your religion is to wrong those who are not followers of your religion. In other words, it is to commit bigotry.
Now you're making another assumption. I never once even mentioned my religion as a reason, so where is this coming from?
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
Humans are mammals,
Yep.

but much different than the animal kingdom.
Nope.

We are seperate
As a seperate species, yes.

significant
Nope. Actually, we are rather insignificant in the grand scale.

Nope.

Surely you see the obvious differences between humans and all other mammals?
Nope. Would you care to point them out to me?

If you want to act like an animal, go ahead
Thank you for your permition. By acting as I do, I act as I am, thus, I act as an animal, because I am one.

Personally I prefer to act and live better than that
Better than what you are? That is impossible. However I, or you, or anyone acts, they are still acting, by definition, as an animal.

It's terribly egocentric to assume that humans are on some mystical pedestle of superiority merely because of our meager accomplishments, or whatever else you want to say.




Eerwed, in response to your response to my first response to the thread (whew! :p ), I don't consider it an attack. I just want to know why. Forgive me if I appear to make assumptions, but I am very protective of the rights of others. In no way do I mean offense to you, or anybody, in any post, unless it is extremely warrented.

Do not think I am calling you a bigot either. I meant that comment to be in regards to the laws of certain countries, that prohibit polygamous families, due to certain marriage laws.

Sorry if I appeared hostile, or caused some offence. :(
 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
Well, if you aren't any different than the animal kingdom, then I assume you usually run around naked outside, tracking your prey, eating it raw, fighting with other dominant males for the right to mate, marking your territory through urination, attacking anyone who comes within your territory without remorse, etc. Or, you make decisions based entirely upon instinct and not reason, you have no ability to feel love or compassion, you don't sit for hours thinking about your life and its meaning, you have no artistic ability, you can't differenciate moral concepts of good and bad, etc. Please, you tell me how we are just like animals, because except for those who choose to hurt the innocent, I don't see any similarity.
 

CaptainXeroid

Following Christ
EEWRED said:
Humans are mammals, but much different than the animal kingdom. We are seperate, significant and special. Surely you see the obvious differences between humans and all other mammals? If you want to act like an animal, go ahead. Personally I prefer to act and live better than that.
Well stated and I concur!

Another way to think about it is like this. When animals want something they take it or fight for it. Ask anyone who has young children or works around them if this is not their first reaction. We teach children not to take what isn't theirs, and then we have laws to punish adults who steal. Just because a behavior is 'natural' doesn't mean it's proper for humans to engage in it.

As for should it be legal? I kinda' lean toward the 'leave consenting adults alone' side of the aisle.

BTW...you know what the punishment for polygamy is? More than one mother-in-law.:bonk:
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
The notion that polygamy is justified merely because it is natural soon runs into a certain difficulty. There are many behaviors that are natural to us as a species, but which are not justified merely because they are natural. War is an example of one such behavior. There is overwhelming evidence that war is a natural behavior of our species, but few people would argue that wars were justified merely because they are natural. In the same way, polygamy might be a natural behavior of our species, but you would need more than that fact alone to justify polygamy.
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
Well, if you aren't any different than the animal kingdom, then I assume you usually run around naked outside
Where I am, it would be impssible. Clothes were an evolutionary adaptation, through the use of culture, in order to survive in colder areas. I see nothing wrong with the naked human body. Did I live in a place where it was hot, unlike where I currently live, and the cultural norm had not changed to wearing clothes, I'd go naked. Presently, that is illegal.

tracking your prey,
It's not hard to track a head of lettuce (I'm vegan :p ). However, agriculture was another evolutionary adaptation that utilized culture. We didn't really need to do that anymore.

eating it raw,
I don't cook my lettuce either. In the case of meats, fire was another cultural adaptation. We couldn't live on raw meat. We would die.

fighting with other dominant males for the right to mate,
Have you gone to high school? :biglaugh:

Seriously though, this happens. Certainly not like the rabbit, or the caribou, but similar to the bonobo. Not through physical means, usually, but through social means.

marking your territory through urination,
Many species don't. For us, signs and maps have become the cultural norm (Through cultural adaptation)and are a tad more efficient for us, having lost most of our olfactory sensory perception.

attacking anyone who comes within your territory without remorse
Ever been in some rural farm areas? Even where I live some people are mighty hostile about their property. However, because we are social animals, look on a grander scale. Chimpanzees will have wars when another group of chimpanzees encroach on their territory, or "country". Likewise, humans will do the same when other groups encroach on ours. :rolleyes:

Or, you make decisions based entirely upon instinct and not reason
I believe that many animals have the ability to use reason. Why not? Perhaps humans have a higher ability in this area, but not to the exclusion of others.

you have no ability to feel love or compassion,
Don't tell me that non-humans don't have concepts of love or compassion, or the emotions themselves. They do. I have seen it; many times.

you don't sit for hours thinking about your life and its meaning,
Again, that is an adaptation. We are that way through evolution. Our differences are differences, yes, but they don't set us apart.

you have no artistic ability,
Elephants draw, and have been shown to at least understand the concept. They utilize proper colours and such. And yes, I, personally, have little artistic skill, besides with computers.

you can't differenciate moral concepts of good and bad,
Morals are not common to every species. Different species have different concepts of morals. It's all relative, really, as are concepts of good and bad. We get them through evolution.

Please, you tell me how we are just like animals, because except for those who choose to hurt the innocent, I don't see any similarity.
You can think that way as long as you want, it's your right. However, the sameness is blatant, in my view.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
**MOD POST**

Folks, we're getting off topic here.

The topic of this thread is whether polygamy is natural, not whether we are or are not significantly like other animals. If you want to discuss the latter, then please start a new thread dealing with that topic.
 

Saw11_2000

Well-Known Member
Humans are supposed to be polygamous.

But...since we have that wonderful wonderful wonderful human brain thriving inside of our cranium, we are able to use empathy and our emotions to manipulate our instincts. People can be monogamous if they wish, and people can be polygamous. We use our feelings to judge a situation, which is truly special. Animals just $#&* to get their species more population, humans do it with love etc. etc. etc. start a family, carry the name down a little bit more, whatever!, but we are very special if we can do that.
 

anders

Well-Known Member
Engyo said:
Personally, I believe there are monogamous humans and non-monogamous humans. There are also non-gamous humans (the ones who don't want any sort of continuing relationship with specific others). I think that the question here is somewhat semantically obtuse (no offense intended). That this is "natural" is indicated by the frequency with which humans do not remain monogamous in the face of societal/cultural pressures to do so. The question is probably better stated as "Can polygamy be examined and found culturally acceptable here in the primarily Christian west, given the human proclivity towards it?"

My personal answer is that I don't believe any human family living arrangement is wrong as long as it provides for support (emotional, physical, financial) of all the members of said family and does not create significant additional amounts of suffering (over and above what those individuals would experience in a culturally normal setting). It is also interesting to note that in order for such arrangements to be culturally normal anywhere, they must be viable, or the custom would have died out very quickly.
I can't improve on that. Any combination of n males and/or m females living in harmony is OK with me.

And I agree with most everything that Druidus has posted here. "I see nothing wrong with the naked human body. Did I live in a place where it was hot, unlike where I currently live, and the cultural norm had not changed to wearing clothes, I'd go naked.", "It's not hard to track a head of lettuce", "Don't tell me that non-humans don't have concepts of love or compassion, or the emotions themselves. They do.", ...
 
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