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Play, Learning, and Religion

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
PLEASE NOTE: This is a discussion thread, not a debate thread. State your views. Provide your reasons for them. Ask respectful questions of other posters. Even compare and contrast your views with other positions purely for the sake of clarification. BUT DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PROVE OTHER POSITIONS FALSE OR WRONG! Moreover, please report to the Mods any posts that engage in debate, or attempt to.​


Play is one of at least two instinctive ways that humans learn. The other way is imitation. Both ways of learning seem to be deeply rooted in our genes. Children never need to be taught to play nor taught to imitate. The behaviors come instinctively to them. During both play and imitation, children acquire skills they will need later on in life. In short, they learn.

However, play and imitation are not merely ways we humans acquire skills, they are also ways we humans acquire information and views. That is, data, facts, opinions, perspectives, and even some of our morals and values. This becomes apparent when one considers that rote learning can seen as a form of imitation, and creative (imaginative) thinking and critical thinking can be seen as forms of play.

To be a bit more precise, there are many forms of play, but the one we want to focus on here is the game of "let's pretend". That's what we call the game when children do it. When adults do it, we more often call it asking 'what if' questions. A childhood game of "Let's pretend I'm T-Rex and you're the infinitely annoying Stephanie Morrison, and I'm stomping towards your house..." easily morphs within only a few years into, "What if I saved the beautiful and charming Stephanie Morrison from a T-Rex attack? Would she at last notice I even exist?" 'Let's pretend' and 'what if' are very similar to each other. And they encourage both creative thinking and critical thinking.

Imitation, by its very nature is an excellent way to pass along cultural traits with very little change or modification. Especially in the form of rote learning, imitation actively avoids any changes to the information and views passed from one person to another by its means. But by those very facts, imitation discourages discovery, innovation, creative thinking, and critical thinking.

Essentially, imitation can be fairly described as "in-the-box thinking" while play can be fairly described as "Beyond-the-box thinking". Quite obviously, God and Darwin intended us to use both.

Bearing in mind all of the above...

What is the role of imitative learning in your religion?

What is the role of playful learning in your religion?


_______________________________________
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
PLEASE NOTE: This is a discussion thread, not a debate thread. State your views. Provide your reasons for them. Ask respectful questions of other posters. Even compare and contrast your views with other positions for the sake of clarification. BUT DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PROVE OTHER POSITIONS FALSE OR WRONG!​


Play is one of at least two instinctive ways that humans learn. The other way is imitation. Both ways of learning seem to be deeply rooted in our genes. Children never need to be taught to play nor taught to imitate. The behaviors come instinctively to them. During both play and imitation, children acquire skills they will need later on in life. In short, they learn.

However, play and imitation are not merely ways we humans acquire skills, they are also ways we humans acquire information and views. That is, data, facts, opinions, perspectives, and even some of our morals and values. This becomes apparent when one considers that rote learning can seen as a form of imitation, and creative (imaginative) thinking and critical thinking can be seen as forms of play.

To be a bit more precise, there are many forms of play, but the one we want to focus on here is the game of "let's pretend". That's what we call the game when children do it. When adults do it, we more often call it asking 'what if' questions. A childhood game of "Let's pretend I'm T-Rex and you're the infinitely annoying Stephanie Morrison, and I'm stomping towards your house..." easily morphs within only a few years into, "What if I saved the beautiful and charming Stephanie Morrison from a T-Rex attack? Would she at last notice I even exist?" 'Let's pretend' and 'what if' are very similar to each other. And they encourage both creative thinking and critical thinking.

Imitation, by its very nature is an excellent way to pass along cultural traits with very little change or modification. Especially in the form of rote learning, imitation actively avoids any changes to the information and views passed from one person to another by its means. But by those very facts, imitation discourages discovery, innovation, creative thinking, and critical thinking.

Essentially, imitation can be fairly described as "in-the-box thinking" while play can be fairly described as "Beyond-the-box thinking". Quite obviously, God and Darwin intended us to use both.

Bearing in mind all of the above...

What is the role of imitation in your religion?

What is the role of play in your religion?


_______________________________________

Christian mysticism is beyond the box. Theosis comes to mind, with the concept of divinization.

CCC 460: "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
This is interesting. For me, in the Christian congregation we are told that all the things written beforehand were for our instruction. That is by reading Bible accounts you see the outcome of both good and bad people. You see how God responds to situations and events and fulfills his purpose.

The imitation:

Paul wrote: "Not that we do not have authority, but we wanted to offer ourselves as an example for you to imitate." (2 Thessalonians 3:9). The zealous ministry which the holy men and elders in the Bible performed, all their labors of love, and endurance were examples for us to follow.

Later we are also told: "Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith."-Hebrews 13:7. So again we want to imitate the faith of those taking the lead in the Christian congregation.

Now no one could have had more influence than Jesus Christ himself, the head and former of the Christian congregation. And scripture quite plainly tells us:

"In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely."-1 Peter 2:21.

A Christian is a follower of Christ. So really he would want to imitate the Christ in all things in his life. For that is why he suffered for us. So we could follow his steps closely.


The play:

The imagination. One can imagine all kinds of things now can't he. In the Bible everything we need for salvation is found. Everything we need to live our lives completely toward God. If one has questions that have no answer, then prayer, study and meditation. By means of study and holy spirit along with prayer many times the answers to questions on our minds will be revealed.

But what if no clear answer or understanding of something is given? Well, then a Christian must take what he already knows to be right and true and formulate an opinion on the matter that would best fit the situation.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Christian mysticism is beyond the box. Theosis comes to mind, with the concept of divinization.

CCC 460: "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."

Upon further reflection, it seems "play" leads to "imitation" in this case.

...I don't know what to think when things become 'circular'. Round and round... Like trying to understand if time really exists or if its human abstract thinking, based on our perception. It also goes circular if you think about it long enough. Other things can also lead to circular ends.

200.gif
 
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Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Upon further reflection, it seems "play" leads to "imitation".

...I don't know what to think when things become 'circular'. Round and round... Like trying to understand if time really exists or if its a human abstract.

Reminds me of the proverb:

What has been is what will be,
And what has been done will be done again;
There is nothing new under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 1:9.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Upon further reflection, it seems "play" leads to "imitation" in this case.

...I don't know what to think when things become 'circular'. Round and round... Like trying to understand if time really exists or if its human abstract thinking, based on our perception. It also goes circular if you think about it long enough. Other things can also lead to circular ends.

View attachment 39774

Another thing that becomes circular is progressive and conservative thought, being rooted in our own chemistry, as our cells fight to stay the same, but often mutate (progress)... Sometimes progress can lead to undesirable ends, especially if it happens too quickly, and cannot stand the test of time.

...But it's circular because they work together, one not being more important than the other in evolution.
 
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Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
Here's a great opportunity for me to be corrected. I can't think how play is involved in Buddhism, unless (perhaps) playful language? There's certainly plenty of learning by imitation - seating posture, bowing, chanting...
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
What is the role of imitative learning in your religion?

What is the role of playful learning in your religion?

Good questions!

Paganism is an umbrella term encompassing multiple beliefs, traditions and practices. Naturally, it would be impractical to attempt to go through all of them. However, there is one thing common to most forms of Paganism (including my own) and that's the importance of storytelling. I feel that this fulfills both forms of learning.

Imitative learning is fairly obvious. The stories impart information to us and the act of telling them serves to cement that information in our memories. Through hearing, reading or telling the stories of the various Pagan peoples, we learn about their gods and heroes. We learn about which gods ruled over the sea, wilderness, trade and so on. We learn about their nature and in so doing we learn something of the values of the people who worshiped them.

Playful learning may be less obvious at first glance but is still an intrinsic part of good storytelling. Firstly, when we listen to or read a story we place ourselves within its world. We're an observer, living the lives of its characters vicariously. We feel the love Prometheus had for humanity and the anger Zeus felt over his betrayal. We're invited to ask ourselves, "What would I do?" If I were Sisyphus, would I have defied Thanatos and Hades? If I were Cú Chulainn, would I have had the courage to place my head on the chopping block as a test of my honour? What lessons can I learn from the trials and triumphs of those in the story?

Secondly, a common tradition in storytelling is to put your own spin on it. If you look into the folklore of Europe, you'll find that virtually all the stories have variant tellings. You will also notice a great degree of overlap in the stories of neighbouring countries as the tales of one culture are amalgamated into another. Cú Chulainn was challenged to a contest of bravery by a sorcerer. He would cut off the sorcerer's head today and the sorcerer would cut off Cú Chulainn's head tomorrow. When Cú Chulainn cut off the sorcerer's head, he simply picked it up again and placed it back on his neck, promising that it would be Cú Chulainn's turn tomorrow. A very similar story appears in Arthurian legend which is unsurprising given the close proximity of England and Ireland.

This trend of retelling stories in slightly different ways gives us even more insight into the culture of the people who told them. We can see the regional variety in customs, morality and values. It's also a way for us to think creatively when we tell the stories ourselves. Folkloric tales tend to have pieces missing so how do we fill them in when we retell the stories ourselves?


Stories are valuable things. Sometimes people forget just how important they are.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Stories are valuable things. Sometimes people forget just how important they are.

That was an exceptionally well-thought-out and well-expressed post, @Erebus! Thank you so much for it!

About the sentences I quoted. Do you imagine the sciences might have something to do with how it seems we place less emphasis on stories as sources of information and values these days? I mean, the sciences in most ways rely much less on stories than nearly any other fields of human learning and knowledge. For the most part, they are even discouraged. So I'm asking if the attitude or approach of the sciences to storytelling has not been seeping into popular culture?
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Very interesting read @Sunstone.

I like your distinction between 'imitation' (rote learning, mimesis) as a vehicle for the unadulterated transmission of knowledge from one generation to the next and 'play' ('out-of-the box' imagination, creativity in thought) as a form of innovative discovery of new things.

In terms of my own religious tradition, I'd say we avail ourselves of both modes of learning.

There was a famous linguistic tussle in late antiquity over the precise definition of the Latin word religio (from which we derive 'religion'). According to the pagan rhetorician and Stoic-influenced moralist Cicero (106 BC – 7 December 43 BC), 'religio' was derivative of 'relegere' ("to re-read") which entailed 'rote learning', meaning that to be 'religious' was to studiously and uncritically retain the ancestral cultic traditions and customs of one's forefathers. Therefore in his dialogue, De natura deorum, one of the main interlocutors Aurelius Cotta, affirms: "For my part a single argument would have sufficed , namely that it has been handed down to us by our ancestors...I think that I should defend those opinions which we have received from our ancestors about the immortal gods, and the cults and rites and religious duties. I myself will indeed defend them always and always have defended them" (Cic. Nat. D. 3.9).

The Christian theologian and early church father Lactantius (c. 250 – c. 325) strongly disagreed with that etymology. It was of course at that time, during the Great Persecutions under Diocletian, being used by the imperial regime to try and execute Christians as a mob of 'irreligious atheists'.

In the 3rd century, the Neoplatonist philosopher Porphyry wrote about this:


How can people not be in every way impious and atheistic who have apostatized from the customs of our ancestors through which every nation and city is sustained? ... What else are they than fighters against God?


In 258, the Roman magistrate Galerius Maximus executed a Christian Carthaginian bishop with the following decree:


You have long lived an irreligious life, and have drawn together a number of men bound by an unlawful association, and professed yourself an open enemy to the gods and the religion of Rome; and the pious, most sacred and august Emperors ... have endeavoured in vain to bring you back to conformity with their religious observances; whereas therefore you have been apprehended as principal and ringleader in these infamous crimes, you shall be made an example to those whom you have wickedly associated with you; the authority of law shall be ratified in your blood."


Now, if you follow the logic of Cicero's definition of 'religio' (to "re-read") - Galerius Maximus was quite accurate in his sentencing, appalling as it looks to us today from a liberal vantage point.

The Roman Empire was an absolutist priestly-theocracy under an Emperor enshrined in law as the Pontifex Maximus (Supreme Pontiff, High Priest) of the Roman state religion. One of his most important functions was to make sure that his subjects - in addition to paying their taxes - offered due reverence to the ancestral gods through the ritual animal slaughters and votive offerings, watched over by the Vestal Virgins.

In the early Christian movement, you had something which horrified the Roman mind: a group of people, native-born Romans and Greeks, abandoning the customs and rites of their ancestors - nay, even the gods themselves! - to worship the unseen, imperceptible, transcendent God of a foreign nation (the Israelites). Oh the villainy! If the sacrifices ceased being offered, as would be the case if Christianity kept spreading, the gods would withdraw their divine sanction and their civilisation would collapse.

Lactantius desperately needed to find a persuasive rebuttal to this claim of Christian 'irreligion'. His community was literally, at that point, being systematically annihilated for the first time in its history. And so, he conceived a fresh understanding of the etymology underlying the word religion, in his apologia The Divine Institutes written to defend Christianity from its enemies. And it was pretty darn ingenious.

He argued that religio was not derived from relegere "to re-read" but on the contrary from the root ligo "to bind".

Lactantius had just re-defined the entire meaning of religion - and his new interpretation, through Christianity, would ultimately spread around the world as a result of Victorian secular scholars. If religion was not chiefly about 're-reading' the traditions of one's ancestors, unchanged and unquestioned, but rather to do with 'binding' oneself - of one's own freewill, intuition and reason - to that conception of Deity, way of life and understanding of truth which that person most believed to be true, after conducting an independent investigation, then the Roman state had absolutely no justification for persecuting Christians for abandoning their ancestral religious traditions, gods and sacrifices or indeed accusing them of being "irreligious".

In this way, he called upon the pagan priests and augurs to engage in a constructive dialogue with the early Christians, along the lines of: don't just demand that we need to keep up the old religious observances and beliefs simply because they are the ones passed down unchanged from our ancestors, rather engage us intellectually to try and persuade us of the merit in your system.

As Lactantius explained in his Divine Institutes (translated below in the Catholic Church's New Advent collection of the Church Fathers):


CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Institutes, Book V (Lactantius)


The first office of justice is to be united with God, the second with man....

And since we are speaking generally with those who worship gods, let us have your permission to do good with you; for this is our law, this our business, this our religion.

It is thought that there is a bad mind in those who endeavour to preserve their faith, but a good one in executioners. Is there, then, a bad mind in those who, against every law of humanity, against every principle of justice, are tortured, or rather, in those who inflict on the bodies of the innocent such things, as neither the most cruel robbers, nor the most enraged enemies, nor the most savage barbarians have ever practised?

Let their priests come forth into the midst, whether the inferior ones or the greatest; their flamens, augurs, and also sacrificing kings, and the priests and ministers. Let them call us together to an assembly; let them exhort us to undertake the worship of their gods; let them persuade us that there are many beings by whose deity and providence all things are governed; let them show how the origins and beginnings of their sacred rites and gods were handed down to mortals; let them explain what is their source and principle; let them set forth what reward there is in their worship, and what punishment awaits neglect; why they wish to be worshipped by men; what the piety of men contributes to them.

There is no occasion for violence and injury, for religion cannot be imposed by force; the matter must be carried on by words rather than by blows, that the will may be affected. Let them unsheath the weapon of their intellect; if their system is true, let it be asserted. We are prepared to hear, if they teach; while they are silent, we certainly pay no credit to them, as we do not yield to them even in their rage.

Let them imitate us in setting forth the system of the whole matter: for we do not entice, as they say; but we teach, we prove, we show. And thus no one is detained by us against his will, for he is unserviceable to God who is destitute of faith and devotedness; and yet no one departs from us, since the truth itself detains him. Let them teach in this manner, if they have any confidence in the truth; let them speak, let them give utterance; let them venture, I say, to discuss with us something of this nature.

For they are aware that there is nothing among men more excellent than religion, and that this ought to be defended with the whole of our power; but as they are deceived in the matter of religion itself, so also are they in the manner of its defense. For religion is to be defended, not by putting to death, but by dying; not by cruelty, but by patient endurance; not by guilt, but by good faith: for the former belong to evils, but the latter to goods; and it is necessary for that which is good to have place in religion, and not that which is evil. For if you wish to defend religion by bloodshed, and by tortures, and by guilt, it will no longer be defended, but will be polluted and profaned. For nothing is so much a matter of free-will as religion; in which, if the mind of the worshipper is disinclined to it, religion is at once taken away, and ceases to exist.


CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Institutes, Book II (Lactantius)


It is therefore right, especially in a matter on which the whole plan of life turns, that every one should place confidence in himself, and use his own judgment and individual capacity for the investigation and weighing of the truth, rather than through confidence in others to be deceived by their errors, as though he himself were without understanding.

God has given wisdom to all alike, that they might be able both to investigate things which they have not heard, and to weigh things which they have heard.

Nor, because our ancestors preceded us in time did they also outstrip us in wisdom; for if this is given equally to all, we cannot be anticipated in it by those who precede us. It is incapable of diminution, as the light and brilliancy of the sun; because, as the sun is the light of the eyes, so is wisdom the light of man’s heart.

Wherefore, since wisdom — that is, the inquiry after truth — is natural to all, they deprive themselves of wisdom, who without any judgment approve of the discoveries of their ancestors, and like sheep are led by others...

(continued...)
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Happily for him, Lactantius lived to see the end of the Diocletian Persecution:


Diocletianic Persecution - Wikipedia


The Diocletianic or Great Persecution was the last and most severe persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire.[1] In 303, the Emperors Diocletian, Maximian, Galerius, and Constantius issued a series of edicts rescinding Christians' legal rights and demanding that they comply with traditional religious practices. Later edicts targeted the clergy and demanded universal sacrifice, ordering all inhabitants to sacrifice to the gods.


After the abatement of the persecutions, he was granted a starring role in crafting the new religious settlement under the two co-emperors, Licinius in the East and Constantine the Great in the West.

Following his victory at the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, which brought an end to the Roman civil war, Constantine - whose mother Helena was a Christian - became friendly with Lactantius, ultimately appointing him to be his son Crispus's personal tutor. Subsequently, Constantine relied upon Lactantius's theory of religion to enshrine empire-wide tolerance.

That settlement is known to history as "The Edict of Milan" (313) and it officially adopted the Lactantian understanding of 'religion':


Edict of Milan - Wikipedia

Internet History Sourcebooks Project


"When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought - among other things which we saw would be for the good of many - those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred...

And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision, We thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, or of that religion which he should think best for himself.

Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.
"​


As a consequence of the foregoing, the Catholic tradition combined relegere with ligo into a new holistic understanding of religion.

On the one hand, the very implication of being part of a "sacred tradition" is that you are the heir to and recipient of some rich inheritance from the past. And of that, we Catholics certainly are.

Ours is the heritage of the apostles - through the apostolic succession, as we so regard it, the 'laying on of hands' from one generation of bishops to another in unbroken lineage - the deposit of faith and the seven sacraments, the ecumenical councils, the intellectual patrimony of the church fathers, the spiritual reservoir of the desert fathers and the great mystics, the analytical treatises of the scholastics and the Jesuits, and much else besides that time would fail me to enumerate.

So, we definitely have imitation learning there.

However, the tradition is never "static" or in a steady-state of fossilisation. With every new generation has come a renewed wealth of insight and understanding into that 'deposit of faith' which has progressed in time through the ages and which we believe to be an inexhaustible source of 'newness' in knowledge. The analogy often used is that of a tree slowly growing from the original acorn into a small sapling and then into a great oak:


The image is gleaned from Jesus and St. Paul, the latter of which described the 'church' analogically as being an olive tree in his Letter to the Romans chapter 11. Jesus also supplied us with a connected metaphor: that the kingdom of God - the church in our understanding - can be compared to a tiny mustard seed gradually developing into a mighty tree, in his Parable of the Mustard Seed:


Parable of the Mustard Seed - Wikipedia


He set another parable before them, saying, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field; which indeed is smaller than all seeds. But when it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in its branches."

— Matthew 13:31–32, World English Bible

In like manner, the Christian tradition entrusted to the church slowly unfolds in time with growth in insights and realities, never losing sight of the "rich root of the olive tree" (Romans 11:17) but growing into something better and greater than its origins.

This interpretation was encapsulated in the saying of St. Vincent of Lérins, who wrote concerning doctrinal development in the fifth century: “Therefore, let there be growth and abundant progress in understanding, knowledge, and wisdom, in each and all, in individuals and in the whole Church, at all times and in the progress of ages".

"Opera Christi non deficiunt, sed proficiunt": "Christ's works do not go backwards, they do not fail but progress" said St. Bonaventure (1221 – 1274) in his De Tribus Quaestionibus. In its modern articulation, the Catholic Church describes it thus (in the Vatican II document on sacred scripture, 1965):


Dei verbum


“The Tradition that comes from the apostles makes progress in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. There is a growth in insight into the realities and words that are being passed on. This comes about in various ways. It comes through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts. It comes from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which they experience. And it comes from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth. Thus, as the centuries go by, the Church is always advancing towards the plenitude of divine truth, until eventually the words of God are fulfilled in her.”


Undoubtedly, the above corresponds to your "play" learning (creative thinking "outside-the-box") which involves discovery and innovation.
 
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Erebus

Well-Known Member
That was an exceptionally well-thought-out and well-expressed post, @Erebus! Thank you so much for it!

About the sentences I quoted. Do you imagine the sciences might have something to do with how it seems we place less emphasis on stories as sources of information and values these days? I mean, the sciences in most ways rely much less on stories than nearly any other fields of human learning and knowledge. For the most part, they are even discouraged. So I'm asking if the attitude or approach of the sciences to storytelling has not been seeping into popular culture?

Thank you :)

It's certainly possible that the sciences have influenced people's perceptions of the importance of stories in general and folklore in particular. Most scientists will find little practical use for stories when it comes to studying their particular field. However, they still play an important role in areas such as archaeology and anthropology so it isn't really a blanket dismissal of their value. Furthermore, it seems to be the minority opinion among scientists that only scientific knowledge is worthwhile. Stories may not have a useful application within their particular field but that doesn't mean they necessarily view them as worthless in general.

When it comes to the general public though, I do think there's a tendency for some people to overly focus on what we might think of as the aesthetic of science. There's a popular image of the scientist as somebody concerned solely with scientific facts, who is consistently logical and who is interested only in the truth. When people seek to emulate that image, they tend to discard things that they see as incompatible with it.

Personally, I think that our approach to work and productivity likely has a greater impact on the dismissal of stories than our approach to science does. There's a general attitude that all knowledge must be put to immediate use in order to create a product or earn a living. Anything that does not achieve this is a waste of time. Not only are stories worthless in this worldview, it also diminishes the scope of the sciences by attempting to focus them solely on production rather than discovery.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Thank you :)

It's certainly possible that the sciences have influenced people's perceptions of the importance of stories in general and folklore in particular. Most scientists will find little practical use for stories when it comes to studying their particular field. However, they still play an important role in areas such as archaeology and anthropology so it isn't really a blanket dismissal of their value. Furthermore, it seems to be the minority opinion among scientists that only scientific knowledge is worthwhile. Stories may not have a useful application within their particular field but that doesn't mean they necessarily view them as worthless in general.

When it comes to the general public though, I do think there's a tendency for some people to overly focus on what we might think of as the aesthetic of science. There's a popular image of the scientist as somebody concerned solely with scientific facts, who is consistently logical and who is interested only in the truth. When people seek to emulate that image, they tend to discard things that they see as incompatible with it.

Personally, I think that our approach to work and productivity likely has a greater impact on the dismissal of stories than our approach to science does. There's a general attitude that all knowledge must be put to immediate use in order to create a product or earn a living. Anything that does not achieve this is a waste of time. Not only are stories worthless in this worldview, it also diminishes the scope of the sciences by attempting to focus them solely on production rather than discovery.

I think this is why I like the Grateful Dead so much, because of Robert Hunters poetry... :)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3e6ADtGNxjbYWAYQo00z5b
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Undoubtedly, the above corresponds to your "play" learning (creative thinking "outside-the-box") which involves discovery and innovation.

Lactantius? Catholic scholar? My beloved Vouthon! Surely you are mistaken. It is quite obvious that Lactantius' beyond-the-box thinking places him firmly in the category of "proto-members" of God's Own Christian Church, the Presbyterian Congregation of America, Scotland, and Heaven. I dare say, your tribal allegiance to Catholicism has distorted your normally objective mind!

But apart from that, your post sheds so much invaluable insight into the early development of the intellectual tradition in Catholicism and Christianity. And especially how it came to free itself from turning into an overly-imitative tradition. That is so interesting to know!

Incidentially, I was taught Lactantius' etymology for religio, as you might suppose. I can just 'hear' his thinking... "But what if religio derives from ligo. What then?" Very much an example of play.

Here's a further thought for you. The notion that play is opposed to seriousness misses the mark. Anyone who has watched children in a sandbox knows they are wholly serious about their play. They are absolutely intent upon it. What they are not is grim. Almost never are children grim about their play -- and if and when they are, something has gone hugely wrong. The play has ended. But I don't think you can say the same of imitative thinking. It is compatible with grimness.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Thank you :)

It's certainly possible that the sciences have influenced people's perceptions of the importance of stories in general and folklore in particular. Most scientists will find little practical use for stories when it comes to studying their particular field. However, they still play an important role in areas such as archaeology and anthropology so it isn't really a blanket dismissal of their value. Furthermore, it seems to be the minority opinion among scientists that only scientific knowledge is worthwhile. Stories may not have a useful application within their particular field but that doesn't mean they necessarily view them as worthless in general.

When it comes to the general public though, I do think there's a tendency for some people to overly focus on what we might think of as the aesthetic of science. There's a popular image of the scientist as somebody concerned solely with scientific facts, who is consistently logical and who is interested only in the truth. When people seek to emulate that image, they tend to discard things that they see as incompatible with it.

Personally, I think that our approach to work and productivity likely has a greater impact on the dismissal of stories than our approach to science does. There's a general attitude that all knowledge must be put to immediate use in order to create a product or earn a living. Anything that does not achieve this is a waste of time. Not only are stories worthless in this worldview, it also diminishes the scope of the sciences by attempting to focus them solely on production rather than discovery.

:clapping: You are on a roll. Thank you so much!
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Lactantius? Catholic scholar? My beloved Vouthon! Surely you are mistaken. It is quite obvious that Lactantius' beyond-the-box thinking places him firmly in the category of "proto-members" of God's Own Christian Church, the Presbyterian Congregation of America, Scotland, and Heaven. I dare say, your tribal allegiance to Catholicism has distorted your normally objective mind!

Irrefutable logic!!!! I recant forthwith of my infuriatingly stubborn Catholic tribalism, in favour of the redeeming grace of God's Own Christian Church :D

Actually..... in point of fact....Lactantius is one of the Fathers most highly regarded in the Calvinist tradition (although not anywhere near the same extent as St. Augustine of Hippo, who is just 'the man' for Calvinists). You have - perhaps unwittingly - struck gold here, because I have often heard my Calvinist friends frame him as a kind of proto-Presbyterian (episcopalian ecclesiology and Catholic dogmatism aside) on account of his emphasis upon private judgement and the perspicuity of scripture. Numerous Reformation authorities cite his Divine Institutes as an authority in their arguments.

But apart from that, your post sheds so much invaluable insight into the early development of the intellectual tradition in Catholicism and Christianity. And especially how it came to free itself from turning into an overly-imitative tradition. That is so interesting to know!

You are most welcome.

Incidentially, I was taught Lactantius' etymology for religio, as you might suppose. I can just 'hear' his thinking... "But what if religio derives from ligo. What then?" Very much an example of play.

Here's a further thought for you. The notion that play is opposed to seriousness misses the mark. Anyone who has watched children in a sandbox knows they are wholly serious about their play. They are absolutely intent upon it. What they are not is grim. Almost never are children grim about their play -- and if and when they are, something has gone hugely wrong. The play has ended. But I don't think you can say the same of imitative thinking. It is compatible with grimness.

Another sage reflection on the theme. Spontaneity is rarely, if ever, compatible with grimness.

I quite agree that play can unfortunately be mistaken - in the lay understanding - for a kind of 'frivolousness'. The Catholic philosopher of natural law and jurisprudence John Finnis, deliberately classed 'play' alongside life itself, knowledge, aesthetic experience, sociability and practical reasonableness, as one of the fundamental 'goods' that are essential for human fulfilment.

Finnis is a Thomist and he derived this appreciation for the inherent worth of play - into adulthood - from Aquinas in his Summa Contra Gentiles.

In so elevating the concept of playfulness, his overriding purpose was to disabuse certain thinkers of the notion that play is a frivolous activity - 'childsplay', as so often demeaned in everyday speech - without gravitas or seriousness. On the contrary, it is - not only in terms of learning but as an end in itself - critically important for human flourishing.
 
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sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
"let's pretend"
...
What is the role of playful learning in your religion?

What came to mind in answer is a poem that Daniel Ladinsky "rendered" from Hafiz:

There Is a Wonderful Game

There is a game we should play,
And it goes like this:

We hold hands and look into each other's eyes
And scan each other's face.

Then I say,
"Now tell me a difference you see between us."

And you might respond,
"Hafiz, your nose is ten times bigger than mine!"

Then I would say;
"Yes, my dear, almost ten times!"

But let's keep playing.
Let's go deeper,
Go deeper.
For if we do,
Our spirits will embrace
And interweave.

Our union will be so glorious
That even God
Will not be able to tell us apart.

There is a wonderful game
We should play with everyone
And it goes like this . . .
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Actually..... in point of fact....Lactantius is one of the Fathers most highly regarded in the Calvinist tradition (although not anywhere near the same extent as St. Augustine of Hippo, who is just 'the man' for Calvinists). You have - perhaps unwittingly - struck gold here, because I have often heard my Calvinist friends frame him as a kind of proto-Presbyterian (episcopalian ecclesiology and Catholic dogmatism aside) on account of his emphasis upon private judgement and the perspicuity of scripture. Numerous Reformation authorities cite his Divine Institutes as an authority in their arguments.

I have not verified this myself, but I once heard from one of my professors, Thomas Helms, that the theologies of Augustine, Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli were on almost every key point in agreement. Right down the line.

On a different date, Helms told me that Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli demonstrated how important emphasis was to the character of the religious denominations that a theologian might inspire. He again pointed out the theological agreement between the three. Then he drew an analogy about their differing emphases.

"Luther drank beer, Calvin drank wine, and Zwingli didn't drink."

I knew just enough about those three Protestants to grasp how that analogy might be considered brilliant. Depending on how you interpret it, it's accurate right down to the aesthetics of the churches the three inspired. Luther allowed art of every kind in his churches, religious and secular. Calvin threw out whatever was secular, but kept religious art. And poor Zwingli not only threw out art in almost every form, but he also threw out the seat cushions in the pews, least anyone be too comfortable while he lectured them about hell.

By the way, my professor didn't claim credit for it. He said he was borrowing an old joke that had been making the rounds of Harvard Divinity School while he was earning his doctorate there.

Have you had a chance to crack open Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion?
 
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