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Pinning down the Apostasy

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Polaris said:
The Bible is our only authorative common ground James. I don't view non-apostolic writings as authorative and you don't view our modern-day Apostles as authorative. That's the reality, the Bible is our only neutral ground. All I ask is that you argue your case using texts that are approved by both of us, and last I checked the Bible was approved by the EOC.
There are two problems with this. Firstly, and very importantly, as someone else has pointed out, you don't have the same Bible we do. Where, then, is the common ground? Am I to confine myself, for instance, to the Masoretic Text of the OT when it is not used and is, in fact, opposed by my Church? I'm afraid I cannot do that. Secondly, you sek to impose on me a sola scriptura idea that I cannot adhere to and in fact reject as heretical. This is not meeting on neutral ground but rather stacking the odds in your favour. I'm amazed you can't see that.

So you're telling me that because you can't use post-apostolic writings this debate is meaningless? Why? Because the NT provides no support for your claims? That's odd, isn't the foundation of Christ's church built upon the prophets and apostles? Yet you can't appeal to their writings to make a compelling case for your position?
How on earth could anyone possibly argue for or against a later corruption of faith without comparing later writings to the earlier? It's completely nonsensical. You would have me argue that our beliefs do not differ from those of the Apostles whilst preventing me from citing evidence to show this. That is not a healthy debate.

If you're going to declare my claims to be absurd you better have some reasonable argument to back that up. So far the only argument I've heard is your claim to "2000 years of history". Do you know how many years of history Hinduism has? Over 3000 years, and Buddism has over 2500. Sorry, that argument just doesn't mean much.
I didn't say history. I said Holy Tradition. There's a major difference. It doesn't matter how old a non-Christian faith is as it cannot claim to be following Holy Tradition at all.

You're an intelligent guy James. If you really can't make a compelling case for your position from the writings of the Apostles, then maybe the LDS claims concerning the apostasy are actually quite valid.
I'm not saying that i can't argue against your doctrines from Scripture because I can and I have in the past. I am saying that I have no wish to engage in an argument which is heavily biased in your favour. I would have thought that the difference between those two things would be obvious to you.

James
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Polaris said:
That depends on who you ask. Many seriously believe that the Apostle John was indeed the author of St. John. There are several reasons that the gospels are viewed as authorative:

1. We have reason to believe that they were either recorded/written by an apostle or under the direction of one.
2. They are 4 parallel accounts of Christ's life and for the most part are in complete harmony with each other.
3. They are a historical account of Christ's life and teachings from reliable sources, often eye-witnesses. The authors were simply recounting what they had heard and seen, they were not trying to unauthoratively establish church doctrines.

Concerning the non-Pauline epistles, again it depends on who you ask. Many believe they were indeed written by apostles. I have no reason to believe otherwise.



The canon we use today is by no means the perfect bible. There may be writings that shouldn't necessarily be in there and there are likely writings that should have been included that aren't. I believe the canon was put together by good honest men who for the most part did the best they could to include authorative writings.



If there are any writings that can reasonably be attributed to the apostles or were recorded under their direction, I would definitely accept their writings. This whole issue underscores yet again the importance of modern-day revelation and modern-day apostles/prophets. There is obviously confusion and ambiguity concerning what early writings are actually apostolic and authorative. Modern-day prophets and/or apostles are needed to clarify the points of doctrine addressed by these ambiguous sources. Through inspired modern-day apostles we can confidantly know what teachings are actually part of gospel truth.

Here's your quotation:
Therefore the only writings that we LDS view as authorative in any way are those which can reasonably be attributed to the Apostles.

M. Eugene Boring, Chalice Introduction to the New Testament, pg. 139: "Since the identity of the author [of Mark] is unknown..."

Stephen Harris, The New Testament, pg. 119: "The writer [of Mark] does not identify himself in the Gospel text, and scholars, unable to verify the late second-century tradition of Markan quthorship, regard the work as anonymous."

Dennis E. Smith, Chalice, pg. 152: "Regarding the authorship [of Matthew], the gospel mentions a tax collector named Matthew (9:9; 10:3). Tradition, most notably Papias...equates this Matthew with the author of the work. Yet the gospel itself makes no such claim and never specifically identifies its author. Indeed, it is most likely that the Matthew of the text was dead by the time the gospel writer recorded his work. Consequently, most scholars today do not consider the Matthew to be the author of the work."

Harris, The New Testament, pp. 149, 152: "As in Mark's case, the author [of Matthew] does not identify himself, suggesting to most historians that the Gospel originated and circulated anonymously. The tradition that the author is the "publican" or tax collector mentioned in Matthew 9:9-13...dates from the late second century c.e. and cannot be verified. The main problem with accepting the Apostle Matthew's authorship is that the writer relies heavily on Mark as a source. it is extremely unlikely that one of the original Twelve would depend on the work of Mark, who was not an eyewitness to the events he describes."

Ronald J. Allen, Chalice, pp. 175, 176: "We do not have definite answers to the questions of quthorship, date and place of composition [of Luke]...Luke does not furnish this data directly. The identification of Luke as the author does not occur in the body of either the gospel or Acts. This attribution, found only in the title, first appears in an ancient manuscript that dates from 175-225 c.e. We can neither prove nor disprove that a person named Luke was the author. Some Christians believe that the Author of Luke-Acts was Luke, a companion of Paul (Col. 4:14; Philem. 24; 2 Tim. 4:11). Most scholars (whose views I share) acknowledge that such an identification is unlikely, but not impossible."

Harris, The New Testament, pp. 180,181: "The most important early reference to the author of Luke-Acts confirms that, like Mark, he was not an eyewitness to the events he narrates. In the Muratorian list of New testament books...a note identifies the author of this Gospel as Luke, "the beloved" physician who accompanied Paul on some of the apostle's missionary journeys. The note also states that Luke did not know Jesus. The author nowhere identifies himself... His depiction of Paul's character and teaching, moreover, does not always coincide with what Paul reveals of himself in his letters. To many contemporary scholars, these facts indicate that the author could not have known the apostle well. Perhaps the most telling argument against Luke's authorship is that the writer shows no knowledge of Paul's letters. Although the author's identity is not conclusively established, for convenience we refer to him as Luke."

Larry Paul Jones, Chalice, pg. 220: "This intense debate over apostolic authorship seems out of place for a narrative that never refers to the disciples of Jesus as apostles and limits the Twelve to a minor role. Many readers, again beginning in the second century, have considered a character in the narrative, the Beloved Disciple...the cryptic "signature" of the author. The role of this disciple at the crucifixion and in the closing scene of the narrative plays no small part in this. Since the text never names this disciple, theories of his identity abound, but none of them proves he wrote the text. Given the lack of convincing evidence, it seems best to conclude that we do not know who wrote the book..."

Harris, The New Testament, pg. 209: "Scholars identify the work as anonymous."

There is no reasonable evidence to conclude that apostles either directed or wrote the gospels. They are parallel accounts, because Matthew and Luke rely on the earlier Mark -- but there are significant differences, too. At least Matthew and Luke were not eyewitnesses.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
It is my humble opinion, that even the apostles started down the same path as the Pharisees. Jesus gave us only one command, and while the apostles kept returning to this theme, we still see a LOT OF RULES which flies in the face of our liberty in Jesus.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
First off the Council of Nicea was prompted by Hosius of Cordova . Many of the emperors were highly influenced by their advisors.
Katzpur said:
In trying to get my thoughts together, I keep coming back to the question, "But how do you know that the Holy Spirit is doing the leading?" Consider the Council at Nicea in 325 A.D. It wasn't convened at the request of the Pope, but by a pagan emperor.
So what? In fact, the vast majority of Councils weren't called by the Pope. Most objections, philosophical skirmishes, etc. were done from outside the Church and some even from within. St. Jerome (a Doctor of the Church) for example used to pound on St. Agustine for this or that and it hardly even reached Rome. Sometimes matters get resolved in the lower ranks without the need for a Council. And yes :yes: politics did have an influence on the Church. But this actually gives me, James, Scott, and millions of others more of a reason to believe in the Church. Why? Because sometimes it was a bloody mess and yet something good came from it. Not once, twice, or thrice, but consistanly time and time again. Sure sounds like the HS at work here.
Katzpur said:
The Pope wasn't actually even in attendance. Do we know for sure how he would have voted, and wouldn't it have mattered? Could he have been overruled, and what would the consequences of that vote be?
That is true. Pope Sylvester sent his delegates instead. He did that for a previous Council (Council of Arles) as well and one after the Council of Nicea that has currently slipped my mind at the moment. In short, Ecumenical Councils were approved by Rome. Perhaps you imagine Councils as a “let’s gather all Bishops together and vote”? This was actually uncommon. I can’t think of one Council that had all Bishops in attendance. In fact, some Council’s didn’t even have over half the Bishops in attendance. So it wasn’t “let’s gather all bishops” but rather “let’s gather as many as we can and dialogue”. Although the Pope did attend most of the ones we submit to, he didn’t have to attend to approve it.

Although I would like to continue, I’m afraid it’s going off topic. If you are truly interested in how Catholics resolved issues I could clarify further in the Catholic section or wherever you wish.

Peace,
~Victor
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
NetDoc said:
It is my humble opinion, that even the apostles started down the same path as the Pharisees. Jesus gave us only one command, and while the apostles kept returning to this theme, we still see a LOT OF RULES which flies in the face of our liberty in Jesus.

Do you think these "LOT OF RULES" had any impact on the truth delivered? If so, how?
 

Polaris

Active Member
JamesThePersian said:
There are two problems with this. Firstly, and very importantly, as someone else has pointed out, you don't have the same Bible we do. Where, then, is the common ground? Am I to confine myself, for instance, to the Masoretic Text of the OT when it is not used and is, in fact, opposed by my Church? I'm afraid I cannot do that.
All I'm trying to do is establish our authorative common ground. If that turns out to be just a subset of the Bible so be it.

JamesThePersian said:
Secondly, you sek to impose on me a sola scriptura idea that I cannot adhere to and in fact reject as heretical. This is not meeting on neutral ground but rather stacking the odds in your favour. I'm amazed you can't see that.
You're missing the point James. I'm just trying to identify our common ground and build the debate from there. I don't believe in sola scriptura either so I fail to see how I'm stacking the odds in my favor. The only way that could be the case is if the portions of the Bible that we both view as authorative are biased in favor of my position, therefore scripturally validating my claims to an apostasy. How is a debate based on texts that we both view as authorative "not meeting on neutral grounds"? Are you suggesting that we should include texts that only you view as authorative? How does that make our grounds for debate more neutral?

JamesThePersian said:
How on earth could anyone possibly argue for or against a later corruption of faith without comparing later writings to the earlier? It's completely nonsensical. You would have me argue that our beliefs do not differ from those of the Apostles whilst preventing me from citing evidence to show this. That is not a healthy debate.
I have no problem with you using later writings for comparative purposes to strengthen your point, in fact I fully expect you to. Where we run into problems is when you rely on later writings to establish your argument without some tie-in or reference to sources that we both view as authorative. For example, if you were to claim that new revelation ended because Hermas said so, without providing some apostolic context or scriptural support, then you're argument would carry no weight because a) I don't view Hermas as an authorized mouthpeice for God, and b) there is no clear connection with our authorative common ground. That statement would carry no authority with me. Does that make sense?

There is a difference between mutually established authorative texts and supporting texts. The Bible (or some subset of it) would be our authorative text (i.e our common ground). Later writings would be considered supporting texts and are perfectly valid as long as you can use the authorative texts to establish their credibilty.

JamesThePersian said:
I didn't say history. I said Holy Tradition. There's a major difference. It doesn't matter how old a non-Christian faith is as it cannot claim to be following Holy Tradition at all.
In your opinion there is a major difference. You call your history "Holy Tradition" -- the Buddists and Hindus may call theirs by some glorified name too. To say that my beliefs are absurd because they aren't compatible with 2000 years of "Holy Tradition" means nothing without specifying what Holy Tradition is and providing an argument that establishes the validity of it.

JamesThePersian said:
I'm not saying that i can't argue against your doctrines from Scripture because I can and I have in the past. I am saying that I have no wish to engage in an argument which is heavily biased in your favour. I would have thought that the difference between those two things would be obvious to you.
I'm a reasonable person James. I'm not trying to suck you into some heavily biased debate. What do you suggest we do to make the playing field level? If limiting authorative texts to those that we BOTH accept isn't fair then what would be fair?

I'm sensing you just don't have much interest in debating this topic period. If you really have no interest, all I ask is that you answer these few questions then I'll quit pestering you.

1. When exactly was the "whole faith" delivered to the Apostles, and who officially declared that all pertinent knowledge regarding such had been received, thus marking the end of new revealed knowledge?

2. What NT doctrines were "severely" altered by the LDS church?

3. How are my alternative interpretations "ripped out of context"?
  • The bands of death will not prevail against Christ's church. --- "Bands of death" seems to be a better fit for "gates of hades" than "influence of the devil" is.
  • The influence of the devil ultimately will not prevail against Christ's church. --- If you insist that "gates of hades" should be interpreted "influence of the devil", what is wrong with this interpretation?
 

Polaris

Active Member
sojourner said:
There is no reasonable evidence to conclude that apostles either directed or wrote the gospels.

Then explain to me, why did they get selected to be in the Biblical canon in the first place?

sojourner said:
They are parallel accounts, because Matthew and Luke rely on the earlier Mark -- but there are significant differences, too.

You can't prove that Matthew and Luke relied on the writings of Mark, that's simply some scholar's opinion.

sojourner said:
At least Matthew and Luke were not eyewitnesses.

Again you can't prove that.

I have no problem accepting the four gospels because for the most part they are in complete harmony. There are no real major contradictions between the accounts. As I stated before, they are not unauthorized attempts at establishing church doctrine, they are simply historical accounts of Jesus' life and ministry, and the fact that they are all in agreement concerning the major events and teachings give me no reason to question their credibility.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Polaris, what you are missing is that "common ground" is going to be difficult to come by with both James and I. Since you know that not everything is in the Bible, you feel comfortable resting on it. Which is rather odd coming from someone who believes in "progressive revelation". Why would you insist something on both James and I while not insisting it on yourself?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Polaris said:
Then explain to me, why did they get selected to be in the Biblical canon in the first place?



You can't prove that Matthew and Luke relied on the writings of Mark, that's simply some scholar's opinion.



Again you can't prove that.

I have no problem accepting the four gospels because for the most part they are in complete harmony. There are no real major contradictions between the accounts. As I stated before, they are not unauthorized attempts at establishing church doctrine, they are simply historical accounts of Jesus' life and ministry, and the fact that they are all in agreement concerning the major events and teachings give me no reason to question their credibility.

The very same way all the other books were accepted -- by "apostate" people who "had no authority."

:biglaugh:It's not "some scholar." It's a rather large contingent of Biblical scholars. Most eminent scholars accept this source theory. Which leads me into my second point: It's not merely "opinion." It's a theory based upon a whole body of textual criticism...and it makes a lotof sense.

These eminent scholars (as well as others, such as Fitzmeyer, Scott, Johnson, and Crossan) have concluded through their exhaustive research into the evidence at hand that this is probably so. That's good enough for me. Besides that, you can't prove that they were eyewitnesses. It seems that if part of your criteria is that the author was an eyewitness, then you'd need to prove it.

They are if they were written by "apostate" people -- "apostate" implies that the authorization is not present.

 

Polaris

Active Member
Victor said:
Polaris, what you are missing is that "common ground" is going to be difficult to come by with both James and I.


Why? We have to have something in common -- we're all Christians. There has to be some set of writings that we ALL see as authorative.

Victor said:
Since you know that not everything is in the Bible, you feel comfortable resting on it. Which is rather odd coming from someone who believes in "progressive revelation". Why would you insist something on both James and I while not insisting it on yourself?

I don't necessarily rest on the Bible alone, but for the purpose of debate it makes sense to use it as our primary basis for truth, because ALL parties believe it to be the inspired word of God. In these debates I don't expect you to put trust in LDS revelation just as I shouldn't be expected to trust in later "Holy Tradition".
 

Polaris

Active Member
sojourner said:
The very same way all the other books were accepted -- by "apostate" people who "had no authority."

You didn't answer my question. Just because the men who selected the texts didn't hold apostolic authority doesn't mean that they were completely incapable of making an honest effort at compiling apostolic writings. There must have been some reasonable explanation as to why they chose to include the four gospels.

sojourner said:
It's not "some scholar." It's a rather large contingent of Biblical scholars. Most eminent scholars accept this source theory. Which leads me into my second point: It's not merely "opinion." It's a theory based upon a whole body of textual criticism...and it makes a lotof sense.

Oh, sorry. Let me restate it then. Because some "rather large contingent of Biblical scholars" came up with some theory about the authorship of the gospels still doesn't prove that they weren't written under the direction of the Apostles.

sojourner said:
These eminent scholars (as well as others, such as Fitzmeyer, Scott, Johnson, and Crossan) have concluded through their exhaustive research into the evidence at hand that this is probably so. That's good enough for me. Besides that, you can't prove that they were eyewitnesses. It seems that if part of your criteria is that the author was an eyewitness, then you'd need to prove it.

I don't need to prove to anyone why I believe the four gospels are credible accounts of the life of Jesus and his ministry. They are not attempts at establishing doctrine -- they are historical accounts of Jesus' life, they are in complete agreement concerning the major events of Jesus' life and ministry, and modern-day apostles have confirmed the truths that they contain. I have no reason to question their credibility.

Many post-apostolic writings on the other hand are indeed written with the attempt to declare official doctrinal truths. I don't believe Bishops possessed proper authority to do that. To provide historical accounts and quote the apostles is one thing, but to actively attempt to declare official doctrinal truths without proper authority is entirely different.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Polaris said:
When debating biblical topics I try to.

Well, so do I and James but it's apparent to both of us that gets us no where. So where is the common ground then?
 

Polaris

Active Member
Victor said:
Well, so do I and James but it's apparent to both of us that gets us no where. So where is the common ground then?

The common ground isn't the problem, it's getting beyond the common ground that is difficult. With your approach, why debate anything then? The whole purpose of debate is to present opposing ideas/interpretations/etc with the purpose of helping both sides better understand one another and hopefully increase respect for the other's position.

When someone declares my beliefs to be unfounded or absurd I feel a responsibility to challenge them to provide a reasonable argument to support their claims. Reasonable arguments require the establishment some common ground to serve as the foundation for the debate. The Bible (or some subset of it) is our only common ground in a debate like this. Sure we're not likely to convince each other of our position, but hopefully you all will better understand why we view the apostasy as a valid idea and respect our position enough to refrain from considering our beliefs absurd.

I'm yet to see from you or James or anyone, an argument that effectively refutes the possibility of an apostasy. You keep going back to the same old 2000 years of "Holy Tradition" as some end-all argument. I'm yet to see any authorative, apostolic, statement that declares an official and permanent end to prophets and revelation.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Polaris said:
The common ground isn't the problem, it's getting beyond the common ground that is difficult. With your approach, why debate anything then? The whole purpose of debate is to present opposing ideas/interpretations/etc with the purpose of helping both sides better understand one another and hopefully increase respect for the other's position.
No qualms here. So are you willing to except a Catholic interpretation of the Bible and consider history beyond what you limit?
Polaris said:
I'm yet to see from you or James or anyone, an argument that effectively refutes the possibility of an apostasy. You keep going back to the same old 2000 years of "Holy Tradition" as some end-all argument. I'm yet to see any authorative, apostolic, statement that declares an official and permanent end to prophets and revelation.
Holy Tradition is only useful for those who:

1) Do not submit to the Bible Alone
2) Understand that God is not limited to what is written.
3) That God's Word is alive in the Church
4) Is willing to examine history outside their bias

Can you do this?
 

Polaris

Active Member
Victor said:
No qualms here. So are you willing to except a Catholic interpretation of the Bible and consider history beyond what you limit?


Sure, I'm willing to hear, consider, and compare Catholic interpretation against what I believe and attempt to draw reasonable conclusions based on that. I'm also willing to consider history, but know that I don't view the writings of Bishops as authorative as you do.

Victor said:
1) Do not submit to the Bible Alone
2) Understand that God is not limited to what is written.
3) That God's Word is alive in the Church
4) Is willing to examine history outside their bias
Victor said:
Can you do this?

Sure, other than some questions with #3 I have no problem with the rest.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Victor said:
Do you think these "LOT OF RULES" had any impact on the truth delivered? If so, how?
Of course they did...

The "rules" are supposed to be written on our hearts. However, man seems to prefer parchment and death.
 
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