Phoenicians and Flying Ships

[MaddLlama]

For whatever reason you want to argue this, I do not know. There is nothing here to "debate."

It is not "purely a New Age idea" as you said. The Greek view of the world was very interactive, viewing the quintessence in all things. It is a method of perceiving patterns and meaning through ordinary circumstances. It is a method of communication from one realm to another. It is--what people now often refer to as--astral travel.

Heaven-hell, life-death, matter-quintessence were all happening on the same playing field in the Greek perspective.

There is good evidence that "hell" as described in Homer's "Odyssey" and later in Dante's "Inferno" is (or was rather) an actual place located in a little town in southern Italy called Baia. Amateur archaeologists have been exploring the man-made underground labyrinth since 1962. Because of lack of funding, the Italian government has not sponsered official digs. However, author Robert Temple and National Geographic have made documentaries and gathered much information on the site. Please refer to "Oracles of the Dead: Ancient Techniques for Predicting the Future" by Robert Temple for more information.

You just answered your own question with your previous sentence. The Greeks did believe that the "Gods were physical beings."

ET phone home. Are you ready for your genetic upgrade?

The Greeks did believe that the "gods" had form, came down from heaven (and/or the mountains) to marry and have relationships with humans, brought humans knowledge, manipulated matter, and were often depicted in iconography as having wings.

I don't think that I made a big deal about the Greeks being "non-monotheistic"; that has not been a part of this discussion or a central topic. Perhaps you are not understanding the material. That may be why you seem to be finding fault and arguing where there is no cause for either.

So....you're saying that the Greek Gods are actually aliens....? That's a bit of a rediculous assumption.

You keep stating that the Greeks worshipped many gods. To which I have to ask "so what?".

I'm sorry that you feel like you have to "dumb yourself down" to speak to us silly people who just don't get it, but frankly I find your ideas about Greek culture and mythology to be incredibly off-base and lacking any historical context, and I find you hard to understand because I'm trying to translate new-age speak.

I cannot agree with any of the things you say are just simple fact, except for the last two. But, to me, it is rediculous to claim that the gods of classical mythology are aliens, that mysticism is equal to astral travelling (actually I see no reason to believe the Greeks even had a notion of this concept), and that poetic writing is a form of divination.

 

[gnomon]

No, but I'm aware of his writings. If I'm correct, he detailed many signs, omens and portents as understood by the Greeks to observe everything from when to plant seed to how to knowing weather patterns through the observations of animal behavior. I could be wrong, because I have not read his writings except for excerpts. However, now that you have mentioned it, I will read his works. Thank you.

I ask because so far you have only referenced Homer. I would think, if you wish to know about archaic Greek mythology, that Hesiod's "Theogony" would be better. You might find that "Works and Days" presents a somewhat different concept than you describe.

 

[XAAX]

So....you're saying that the Greek Gods are actually aliens....? That's a bit of a ridiculous assumption.

Is it Llama, is it any less ridiculous that Noah built a boat that "saved" all the animals? No its not. They are both somewhat absurd concepts, yet all I ever see you argue with are those that aren’t within the excepted normalcy of religion.

I'm sorry that you feel like you have to "dumb yourself down" to speak to us silly people who just don't get it.

Don't beat yourself up Llama, we are all at different levels of conscience and understanding.

I cannot agree with any of the things you say are just simple fact, except for the last two. But, to me, it is ridiculous to claim that the gods of classical mythology are aliens, that mysticism is equal to astral traveling (actually I see no reason to believe the Greeks even had a notion of this concept), and that poetic writing is a form of divination.

Although I have no idea if this is true or not. I am at least open to the concept of possibilities. You should learn to do the same versus wanting to argue frivolously over threads only to come out looking silly. I guess it just makes some people feel better to argue over nothing. I personally have no time for such things.

 

[MaddLlama]

Is it Llama, is it any less ridiculous that Noah built a boat that "saved" all the animals? No its not. They are both somewhat absurd concepts, yet all I ever see you argue with are those that aren’t within the excepted normalcy of religion.

I find the literal interpretation of the Bible to be less irritating than the blatant misrepresentation of an entire culture and its religious beliefs to further some sort of new age agenda. But, both ideas are equally rediculous.

Don't beat yourself up Llama, we are all at different levels of conscience and understanding.

Apparently.

Although I have no idea if this is true or not. I am at least open to the concept of possibilities. You should learn to do the same versus wanting to argue frivolously over threads only to come out looking silly. I guess it just makes some people feel better to argue over nothing. I personally have no time for such things.

While this may be a frivolous issue to you, to me, it isn't. I like history, I like classical mythology, and I have spent a considerable amount of free time, college electives and money learning about it. I don't really appriciate someone who demonstrates little knowledge of the historical and cultural context of the Greeks to waltz in and claim things that have little basis in fact. I'm sorry if my love for and desire to protect real history offends you. I am open to concepts and possibilities, but I am not so open minded that I let my brain fall out. If someone says something that all possible intelligent interpretation of a classical text disagrees with, I am disinclined to accept it with no real supporting evidence.

You want to claim that Atermis is an alien? Fine, then you're going to have to give more proof than "the Greeks believed their gods interacted with them". Jesus was supposedly god incarnate, does that make him an alien? This, of course, is not even mentioning the fact that the mythologies and legends such as the ones written by Homer are stories. No normal Greek person ever met face to face with Zeus. They believed they were real, and they believed they effected change in their lives, but they had no more physical contact with their gods than the Christians do today. These stories are myths, myths that help people understand the world around them, they are not first hand accounts. I have no intention of standing idle while someone cheapens them by likening the gods to little green men from mars.

 

[yuvgotmel]

Former Canadian Minister of Defense Asks Canadian Parliament to Hold Hearings On Relations With Alien "ET" Civilizations:
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/11/prweb314382.htm

Project Disclosure:
http://www.disclosureproject.com/

The National UFO Reporting Center:
http://www.nuforc.org/

Graham Hancock's website:
http://www.grahamhancock.com/news/index.php
(Graham Hancock is an author of several books and well-known researcher, especially of unexplainable things like the pyramids on Mars, etc.)

UFOs in Mexico:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5305085298884471236&q=ufo

Prepared for DISCLOSURE:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1776848428018799270&q=ufo
[Many persons (among varying government occupations) come forward (with their firsthand accounts), tell their story briefly (on the video at link above), and each person ends with saying that they are prepared to testify before Congress.]

UFO history:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7472823022720725604&q=ufo
(This video goes through the history step-by-step how the UFO and ETs changed our history for over 50 years. This particular subject affects everything from the elite, religion, drug war and everything in between.)

The Catholic Church and ET Relations:
http://www.sundayherald.com/53020
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0506301.htm
http://www.cts-online.org.uk/explanations.htm

Steven Quayle's website:
http://www.stevequayle.com/
(Author and popular guest host on Coast to Coast AM, Steven Quayle has researched the possibility that today's ET are yesterday's nefilim.)

Former Majestic 12 member speaks out:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-401824297513952563

Project Camelot (Interview with John Lear): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4620458082875021579&q=Project+Camelot&hl=en

Interview with Gary McKinnon (the guy that hacked into the Pentagon's computer system looking for UFO technology): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=303536835466703625&q=Project+Camelot&hl=en

Ancient Artifacts as it concerns extra-dimensional species and foreign "gods":
http://www.ancientx.com/
http://xfacts.com/

UFOs through the Ages:
http://www.greatdreams.com/cnsprcy.htm
http://www.rense.com/ufo4/historyofufo.htm

US Presidents and UFOs:
http://www.presidentialufo.com/

Fastwalkers - Ufo and Alien Disclosure 2006:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4807962636315529202&q=disclosure

UFO Quotes:
http://www.ufocasebook.com/ufoquotes1.html

 

[MaddLlama]

That's all very interesting, but it is all speculation, really. There is no real historical or archeological evidence that aliens visited ancient cultures. It has about the same scientific research and validity as Sasquatch.
There is nothing in ancient mythology that unquestioningly points to alien influence. There are a number of other explanations and interpretations that are far more plausible before we even consider "aliens" as a possibility.

 

[Willamena]

There is nothing in ancient mythology that unquestioningly points to alien influence.

If I read the OP right, the topic is not about "proof" but a discussion of symbolic understanding.

Unfortuantely, I haven't read Greek mythology or I'd be right in the heat of the discussion.

There are a number of other explanations and interpretations that are far more plausible before we even consider "aliens" as a possibility.

Go for it!

 

[MaddLlama]

If I read the OP right, the topic is not about "proof" but a discussion of symbolic understanding.

That's fine, but you don't misrepresent a text, or read it totally out of context, to make it say what you want.

Go for it!

I already did. The idea that the Greeks believed that the Phoenicians had flying ships is simple a misinterpretation of literary devices like symbolism, metaphors and similes that were often used by Greek authors, and even used in modern writing to make it more colorful and less boring. If someone says "his feet moved like a cheetah as he ran", does that mean that the person being referred to has paws?

 

[yuvgotmel]

That's all very interesting, but it is all speculation, really. There is no real historical or archeological evidence that aliens visited ancient cultures. It has about the same scientific research and validity as Sasquatch.
There is nothing in ancient mythology that unquestioningly points to alien influence. There are a number of other explanations and interpretations that are far more plausible before we even consider "aliens" as a possibility.

Just because you are not capable of perceiving the ancient Greeks just might have been speaking quite literally about an actual phenomena that they experienced, does not mean that I have to succumb to allegory to interpret my world.

I did not see a sign on the door of this forum that said debating was allowed. Nor will you find me in the same-faith debates arguing with Christians or Muslims. Why, then, must I be criticized in an area on this forum that is expressly devoted to a certain understanding of which you apparently do not have and do not want?

I do honestly and sincerely believe in my heart and intellect that there are creator beings that created mankind, who are other creator-beings than what I consider an all-sustaining supreme force. And I honestly and sincerely believe, in my literal interpretation of the world, that the Babylonians, Egyptians and the ancient Greeks really were describing encounters with such named beings which were said to have form, walked the earth and interacted with mankind. I do NOT worship those beings, as they are merely created beings themselves.

Why though do I have to maintain composure while being criticized whenever I’ve brought this subject up ON THE PROPER FORUMS? Am I not allowed the same respect and rights on RF as the Christians do in their forum? Do you go into other people’s house and criticize them? Is that your way of doing things? It’s not mine. If I wanted a debate about this thread, then I would have placed it in the debate section, but I did not. And for those, like myself—who do really and truly believe that the ancient accounts of beings coming to earth on chariots with wings and whatnot could have been what people now consider to be “ETs”—, they just might like hearing those little tidbits from Homer’s Odyssey. If you don’t agree with Alien-based faiths, then don’t read it.

If these kinds of attacks continue, every time I make a post in this forum, then what is the purpose of RF in the first place?

Yes, I’m a literalist. I can’t help it. I have Asperger Syndrome if you really must know. That means I’m very, very, very literal, which is why I’m not a Christian. When I was told to eat flesh and drink blood, I took it very literal. People can tell me that it is meant to be symbolic, but I don’t “get it.” In the same manner, when I read ancient texts and it claims that beings came from the sky, ….guess what?.... I believe that beings really did come from the sky! Does that make my interpretation more wrong or more valid? No. But I have a section on this forum to speak about it. And if you don’t agree with it, then get out.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

MOD POST

Hi, everyone! Just as a general reminder, this is a discussion thread and not a debate thread. If someone posts something that you believes is better suited to a debate thread, please notify the mods or simply don't respond.

Thanks!

 

[MaddLlama]

You may prefer literal interpretation, but that's not always the best course of action. Allegory is the best method for interpreting Greek stories and myths, because that's what they used. This is evident throughout all of their writings. If the writers intended something to be symbolic, and you interpret it as literal, then I'm sorry, but your interpretation is not as valid as someone who actually understands symbolism.

I disagree with you interpretation of Greek writings. That's the bottom line. I shouldn't have to keep my mouth shut if I believe your ideas are contrary to history, and I'm not one of those people who believes in the idea that the universe is relative and everyone is right. This is a diverse place with a lot of people who may disagree with your ideas. If you can't accept that, then maybe you should think about why you came to an interfaith forum in the first place. I realize this isn't intended to be a debate, but I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to point out that your information is wrong if it is. I personally take offense to the idea that Hellenism is an "alien based religion". And, I have no qualms about saying so.

 

[yuvgotmel]

It has been said or alluded to in this thread that the ancient civilizations did not know about astral travel or spacecraft. The following excerpts from the Bhagavatam will prove otherwise.

http://vedabase.net/sb/2/7/16/
The Lord resides in His Vaikuṇṭha planet. No one can estimate how far away this planet is situated. It is said, however, that anyone trying to reach that planet by airships or by mindships, traveling for millions of years, will find it still unknown. Modern scientists have invented airships which are material, and the yogīs make a still finer material attempt to travel by mindships. The yogīs can reach any distant place very quickly with the help of mindships. But neither the airship nor the mindship has access to the kingdom of God in the Vaikuṇṭhaloka, situated far beyond the material sky.


http://srimadbhagavatam.com/10/77/en2
(These texts from Chapter 77: Lord Krsna Slays the Demon Salva in the Srimad Bhagavatam describe a battle of AIRSHIPS between the gods.)

One excerpt of many on the link above:

SB 10.77.4: Gada, Satyaki, Samba and others began killing Salva's army, and thus all the soldiers inside the airship began falling into the ocean, their necks severed.

​

http://bhagavata.org/downloads/bhagavatam-canto7.html
(53) Nârada said: 'All the asuras who in battle by the power of the Lord were defeated by the godly, took shelter of the greatest and best of them all, Maya Dânava. (54-55) He constructed for them three huge cities, made of gold, silver and iron, that were immensely great and of an uncommon traffic and of peculiar specialties [they were reported to hover as airships over one another in the sky].[SIZE=-1]


[/SIZE]http://www.geocities.com/dipalsarvesh/viman1.html
"The seven greatest capital cities of Rama were known in classical Hindu texts as 'The Seven Rishi Cities'. According to ancient Indian texts, the people had flying machines which were called 'vimanas'. The ancient Indian epic describes a vimana as a double- deck, circular aircraft with portholes and a dome, much as we would imagine a flying saucer. It flew with the "speed of the wind" and gave forth a 'melodious sound'. There were at least four different types of vimanas; some saucer shaped, others like long cylinders ('cigar shaped airships')."
- D. Hatcher Childress, "Ancient Indian Aircraft Technology"
In The Anti-Gravity Handbook

http://causelessmercy.com/SB3.33.1.htm
The statement in this verse that Kardama Muni’s household affairs were envied even by persons who travel in outer space refers to the denizens of heaven. Their airships are not like those we have invented in the modern age, which fly only from one country to another; their airplanes were capable of going from one planet to another. There are many such statements in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam from which we can understand that there were facilities to travel from one planet to another, especially in the higher planetary system, and who can say that they are not still traveling? The speed of our airplanes and space vehicles is very limited, but, as we have already studied, Kardama Muni traveled in outer space in an airplane which was like a city, and he journeyed to see all the different heavenly planets. That was not an ordinary airplane, nor was it ordinary space travel. Because Kardama Muni was such a powerful mystic yogī, his opulence was envied by the denizens of heaven.
​

 

[exit_and_how]

thought it was interesting that France would release documents (previously secret) concerning UFO investigations. Supposedly, 28% of the cases are "Class D" which are "inexplicable despite precise testimonies and the (good) quality of material information gathered." Some 100,000 documents in all...

but the real question is if they do exist, what do extra-terrestrial beings have to do with earthly life and human religion? perhaps the previous post gives some explanation, but does anyone here buy it?

 

[yuvgotmel]

thought it was interesting that France would release documents (previously secret) concerning UFO investigations. Supposedly, 28% of the cases are "Class D" which are "inexplicable despite precise testimonies and the (good) quality of material information gathered." Some 100,000 documents in all...

but the real question is if they do exist, what do extra-terrestrial beings have to do with earthly life and human religion? perhaps the previous post gives some explanation, but does anyone here buy it?

I would recommend this collection of information about Gnosticism (early Christianity) as it concerns ExtraTerrestrials (which Gnostic texts refer to as Archons).

http://www.amazon.com/Not-His-Image-.../dp/193149892X
"Not in His Image: Gnostic Vision, Sacred Ecology, and the Future of Belief" by John Lash
​

You can also download three hours worth of a radio recording with author John Lash here:

2006-02-16 - Hour 2 - Coast to Coast AM with George Noory
Scholar and mythologist John Lash shares revelations about aliens and UFOs that he gleaned from his research of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi texts. — 13,870 KB
2006-02-16 - Hour 3 - Coast to Coast AM with George Noory
Scholar and mythologist John Lash shares revelations about aliens and UFOs that he gleaned from his research of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi texts. — 13,803 KB
2006-02-16 - Hour 4 - Coast to Coast AM with George Noory
Scholar and mythologist John Lash shares revelations about aliens and UFOs that he gleaned from his research of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi texts. — 12,986 KB​

You might also be interested in this website concerning the Gnostic interpretation of the Archons (which are thought to be the equivalent of the modern-day "extraterrestrials" or what the New Testament terms "powers and principalities").

http://www.metahistory.org/AlienIntrusion.php
​

Also here is a recent news article from The Canadian National Newspaper (online) concerning Gnosticism and ETs/UFOs:

http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/hom.../21/01414.html
​

 

[yuvgotmel]

Interesting documentary on Google concerning the evidence for the Vedas--

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7678538942425297587&q=Forbidden+Archaeology