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Perceptions of Islam
- Thread starter mehrosh
- Start date
c0da
Active Member
How could I take it out of context?
You said that theives hands should be cut off.
I would consider myslef a bit authoritarian when it comes to prison and justice but I really don't think cutting hands off is a fair sentance.
The offender should serve a lengthy prison sentance in sub-standard conditions.
But if you cut somebodies hand off, you have ruined their life even though they may not have reoffended!
mehrosh
Member
c0da2006 said:
Actually, I had given the whole reply to someone else, ok I can discuss this again.G od says in the Quran As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.Chapter Maidah, Verse:38 This is an effective method to put and end to thefts, but the people are poor, if the poor man is hungry and commits theft, and then his hands are cut off, I will certainly agree with you and stand with you against it. But Islam has a system of distrubution of property, that 2.5% of the wealth should be given to the poor at the end of every lunar year. According to the UN Development programme report, if 250 richest people of the world give 4% of tax the problem of poverty can be solved globally. What if you now calculate it Islamically, thus we see that Islam has practical solutions to poverty as well. First the charity law is to be implemented, and then cut off the hands of the theft, I am sure brother, there will be no poor person who have to rob, left on this planet, if the charity law of Islam is implemented. Thus many children, could be saved from death of hunger, child labour, and many other evils. It is reported that in Africa the relief workers demand sex from children, in return for food, and thus the HIV Aids rate is at its peak, only if there was someone at there help
mehrosh
Member
Well, I am not telling you that how will I implement this limb chopping thing, infact what I am trying to tell you is that, the limb chopping punishment is not valid, unless and until the charity law is not implemented. And ones the charity law is implemented, the theft problem will automatically be solved, I don't think that limb chopping will be required. As you know that Rights come with Duties, give the people their Right FIRST. I don't find it as a step backwards, infact a step forward, why doesn't this advancing, modern society have no solution to put an end to POVERTY?????? If Islam provides the ultimate and powerful way out of the Disasters of Poverty, you call it step backwards???c0da2006 said:
mehrosh
Member
The non-Muslim may say, “Chopping off the hands in this 20th century.
Islam is a barbaric and ruthless religion!”
Results achieved when Islamic Shariah Implemented
America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries in the world.
Unfortunately it also has one of the highest rates of crime, theft, and
robbery. Suppose the Islamic shariah is implemented in America i.e. every
rich person gives Zakat ( 2.5% of his savings in charity above 85 grams of
gold every lunar year), and every convicted robber has his or her hands
chopped off as a punishment. Will the rate of theft and robbery in America
increase, remain same or decrease? Naturally it will decrease. Moreover
the existence of such a stringent law would discourage many a potential
robber.
I agree that the amount of theft that takes place in the world today is so
tremendous that if you chop off the hands of all the thieves, there will be
tens of thousands of people whose hands will be chopped off. The point
here is that the moment you implement this law the rate of theft will decline
immediately. The potential robber would give it a serious thought before
jeopardizing his limbs. The mere thought of the punishment itself will
discourage majority of the robbers. There will barely be a few who would
rob. Hence only a few person’s hands would be chopped off but millions
would live peacefully without fear of being robbed.
Islamic Shariah is therefore practical, and achieves results.
Islam is a barbaric and ruthless religion!”
Results achieved when Islamic Shariah Implemented
America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries in the world.
Unfortunately it also has one of the highest rates of crime, theft, and
robbery. Suppose the Islamic shariah is implemented in America i.e. every
rich person gives Zakat ( 2.5% of his savings in charity above 85 grams of
gold every lunar year), and every convicted robber has his or her hands
chopped off as a punishment. Will the rate of theft and robbery in America
increase, remain same or decrease? Naturally it will decrease. Moreover
the existence of such a stringent law would discourage many a potential
robber.
I agree that the amount of theft that takes place in the world today is so
tremendous that if you chop off the hands of all the thieves, there will be
tens of thousands of people whose hands will be chopped off. The point
here is that the moment you implement this law the rate of theft will decline
immediately. The potential robber would give it a serious thought before
jeopardizing his limbs. The mere thought of the punishment itself will
discourage majority of the robbers. There will barely be a few who would
rob. Hence only a few person’s hands would be chopped off but millions
would live peacefully without fear of being robbed.
Islamic Shariah is therefore practical, and achieves results.
Judgement Day
Active Member
frg001 said:
The requirement for modesty are for both men and women. Both will then be evaluated for intelligence and skills instead of looks and sexuality. An Iranian school girl is quoted as saying, "We want to stop men from treating us like sex objects, as they have always done. We want them to ignore our appearance and to be attentive to our personalities and mind. We want them to take us seriously and treat us as equals and not just chase us around for our bodies and physical looks." A Muslim woman who covers her head is making a statement about her identity. Anyone who sees her will know that she is a Muslim and has a good moral character. Many Muslim women who cover are filled with dignity and self esteem; they are pleased to be identified as a Muslim woman. As a chaste, modest, pure woman, she does not want her sexuality to enter into interactions with men in the smallest degree. A woman who covers herself is concealing her sexuality but allowing her femininity to be brought out.mehrosh said:
c0da
Active Member
Well then call me backwards for wanting to live in a society where women's liberation does not involve taking away their rights or where charity comes from the goodness of peoples hearts rather than forced from us in tax.
Or where we might accidentally bump into a guy with no hands!
DakotaGypsy
Active Member
How else am I to judge Islam other than by the actions of its believers. That's precisely how I judge Christians, by their actions, not by what they say they believe.mehrosh said:
Furthermore, I believe that the girl I mentioned in Pakistan WAS NOT STONED TO DEATH because of an international outcry of outrage by Atheists such as myself who do not believe in such evils and practice what we believe.
This is the crux of being Atheist. We do not believe we have to have someone else watching us, we don't believe we need a god watching us, in order to behave in good ways. Because of that, we do not stray from our beliefs because they are our core values, not something imposed upon us by a religious belief.
DakotaGypsy
Active Member
I fall to see why men cannot govern themselves not to go into a sexual frenzy at the sight of a woman's hair. I have no problem with men admiring a woman as a sexual being, as long as they admire from afar and with respect. I do the same thing myself with men, I do not treat them disrespectfully as mere sexual objects.Judgement Day said:
Furthermore, there seem to be an awfully lot of sexually frustrated men within Islam. I think this is caused by the caste system of polygamy. Rich men can have multiple wives, not to mention harems of concubines, which diminishes the likelihood of a lower income man having a wife. Women are reduced to collectible commodities and are not free to pursue a career or job. Women who are free to work and produce income can also marry lower income men because they are not ornaments who are non-productive in a society.
What an awfully materialistic lot Islam seems to me. The reducing of women to mere commodities!
i don't blame you for having this perspective about women in islam, however one thing is true the examples that you are using are likely from some of the arab countries, where there are strict rules and laws, for example in saudi arabia the women can't even drive! and these countries are bad examples, im not saying all of the rules in saudi arabia are bad, but some of them may be irrational. but i would like to clear some of your misconceptions. during our prophet muhammad's (pbuh) time, women were oppressed, treated as sexual objects, male babies were given higher priorities and thus female babies were buried alive. the revelation of the qur'an to our prophet (pbuh) changed this, the qur'an emphasized on respect for women, Considering the fact that before the advent of Islam the pagan Arabs used to bury their female children alive, make women dance naked in the vicinity of the Ka'ba during their annual fairs, and treat women as mere chattels and objects of sexual pleasure possessing no rights or position whatsoever, these teachings of the Noble Qur'an were revolutionary. Unlike other religions, which regarded women as being possessed of inherent sin and wickedness and men as being possessed of inherent virtue and nobility, Islam regards men and women as being of the same essence created from a single soul. The Qur'an declares: O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from this pair scattered (like seeds) countless men and women. Reverence Allah, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and reverence the wombs (that bore you); for Allah ever watches over you. (4:1) The Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him) said, "Women are the twin halves of men." The Qur'an emphasizes the essential unity of men and women in a most beautiful simile: They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them. (2:187) Just as a garment hides our nakedness, so do husband and wife, by entering into the relationship of marriage, secure each other's chastity. The garment gives comfort to the body; so does the husband find comfort in his wife's company and she in his. "The garment is the grace, the beauty, the embellishment of the body, so too are wives to their husbands as their husbands are to them." Islam does not consider woman "an instrument of the Devil",</EM> but rather the Qur'an calls her muhsana - a fortress against Satan because a good woman, by marrying a man, helps him keep to the path of rectitude in his life. It is for this reason that marriage was considered by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as a most virtuous act. He said: "When a man marries, he has completed one half of his religion." He enjoined matrimony on Muslims by saying: "Marriage is part of my way and whoever keeps away from my way is not from me (i.e. is not my follower)." The Qur'an has given the raison d'�tre of marriage in the following words: And among His signs is this, that He has created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them; and He has put love and mercy between you. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect. (30:21) support them. And before stating islam as a "materialistic lot" :sarcastic you should really look at the western society. the east was living a fair life until the western materialistic influences came in, for example you would be walking in some street in turkey right across of you would be a mosque and then right next to it would be a billboard of some pretty girl sporting a mini-skirt and promoting some perfume! here in the west there is a little something that you can try for yourself, go up to a little kid and ask her who her hero is, she is likely to tell you that its britney spears than ghandi, and its not that britney is visually appealing and ghandi is too boring for a kid, its because our media promotes britney more than ghandi. a majority of us want to watch the latest oscar best dressed show than to watch a documentary on martin luther. islam tells us to move away from the materialistic world, we are to focus on things that we really "need" to live a life with a good meaning, so that we can feel a sense of purpose in our lives. just look at the statistics on the amount of anorexic and bolemic women in the west! they all want to be skinny and beautiful its disgusting! if thats beauty, i don't want it! sure us muslims are allowed to enjoy ourselves, but we have limits, us women don't have to worry about what to wear and how to make our hair, we dress simply and some even wear head-dresses (hijabs). just look at our annual pilgrimage to makkah (the hajj) we all wear white, simple cotton clothes to show our unison and show that we are all equal to ALLAH, people of all races, all colors, ethnicities, social classes come together to show their unison, and that is the beauty of islam, and that is what we are taught.DakotaGypsy said:
DakotaGypsy
Active Member
As I have said before, when the Koran was first written, it was the most advanced social document of its time.
However, Islam and its belief system did not adjust to social change and the old creeds of the Koran are out of step with what is now appropriate for the treatment of women.
I must also add that the Muslims were definitely much cleaner than Christians of that time, they were emphatic about bathing regularly and other aspects of cleanliness. And, sigh, I have to worship the Muslims for creating Algebra and our modern number system. Oh, yeah, and for preserving what science the Greeks had discovered and saving it for humanity.
But, alas, they were not perfect, are not perfect.
However, Islam and its belief system did not adjust to social change and the old creeds of the Koran are out of step with what is now appropriate for the treatment of women.
I must also add that the Muslims were definitely much cleaner than Christians of that time, they were emphatic about bathing regularly and other aspects of cleanliness. And, sigh, I have to worship the Muslims for creating Algebra and our modern number system. Oh, yeah, and for preserving what science the Greeks had discovered and saving it for humanity.
But, alas, they were not perfect, are not perfect.
Judgement Day
Active Member
The religion of Islam was revealed for all societies and all times and so accommodates widely differing social requirements. Circumstances may warrant the taking of another wife but the right is granted, according to the Quran, only on condition that the husband is scrupulously fair. No woman can be forced into this kind of marriage if they do not wish it, and they also have the right to exclude it in their marriage contract.DakotaGypsy said:
Polygamy, practiced by almost all other prophets of the Bible who sometimes had hundreds of wives, it is permitted in Islam only when there is an excess of women over men, due usually to wars which create widows and orphans who need a husband and a father and not merely a pension. Even otherwise, situations can arise when girls of marriageable age cannot find husbands within the community of their faith. In such a situation, polygamy is the only honourable solution. Even then Islam puts a maximum of four wives (on unlimited polygamy hitherto) provided the husband can treat them all alike, failing which he should have only one wife (4:3). Societies which did not allow it suffered complete breakdown of the moral fibre of the nation. As far back as the 1920's, Judge Lindsay in his book A Case for Polygamy estimated that there were, in the small society of England, as many as four million women compelled to become prostitutes because they could not find husbands. So where there is a preponderance of women over men, and no polygamy is allowed, free sex springs up to destroy the moral and spiritual health of the society. It is a terrible thing to happen. And who would care to marry widows and take over their children to look after, unless it is out of compassion which is recommended in the verse of the Holy Qur'an allowing polygamy (4:3).
Polygamy is neither mandatory, nor encouraged, but merely permitted. Images of "sheikhs with harems" are not consistent with Islam, as a man is only allowed at most four wives only if he can fulfill the stringent conditions of treating each fairly and providing each with separate housing etc. Permission to practice polygamy is not associated with mere satisfaction of passion. It is rather associated with compassion toward widows and orphans. It was the Quran that limited and put conditions on the practice of polygamy among the Arabs, who had as many as ten or more wives and considered them "property". So Islam didn't introduce polygamy rather than, it puts certain restrictions on polygamy.
It is both honest and accurate to say that it is Islam that regulated this practice, limited it, made it more humane, and instituted equal rights and status for all wives. What the Qur'anic decrees amount to, taken together is discouragement of polygamy unless necessity for it exists. It is also evident that the general rule in Islam is monogamy and not polygamy. It is a very tiny percentage of Muslims that practice it over the world. However, permission to practice limited polygamy is only consistent with Islam's realistic view of the nature of man and woman and of various social needs, problems and cultural variations.
The question is, however far more than the inherent flexibility of Islam; it also is the frank and straightforward approach of Islam in dealing with practical problems. Rather than requiring hypocritical and superficial compliance, Islam delves deeper into the problems of individuals and societies, and provides for legitimate and clean solutions which are far more beneficial than would be the case if they were ignored. There is no doubt that the second wife legally married and treated kindly is better off than a mistress without any legal rights or expermanence. If the West is to avoid the complete breakdown of the institution of marriage, and moral and spiritual deterioration leading to human beings becoming animals or worse, it must consider allowing polygamy. In any case it is better than free extra-marital sex, unwed mothers, ******* children, broken homes, juvenile delinquency, drunkenness to drown sorrows, and daily increasing crime, which are all interlinked.
no one is perfect, not even our prophet muhammad (pbuh), we're human, we all make mistakes, however our prophet (pbuh) is the ideal muslim, and we (us muslims) are to carry his legacy. and there is no definition of "perfect" because there will always be someone out there to criticize you and point out your mistakes. As for your statement about the application of the qur'an to modern day life i would like to respond to that. it would take very long to explain how we can implement the qur'anic law to modern day, so i will look at just a couple of things. firstly i will look at how the qur'an is adaptable to the modern social change. the first democratic system applied in the world was in the city of madinah (in saudi arabia), shura means no-man rule, its the rule of the majority another islamic law. here is another example of how the qur'an is applicable to modern laws today:DakotaGypsy said:
Social justice in Islam: It's something unique and there is no other system that attracts social justice as Islam. I give you a small little example: There was a famous jurist from France who came to a law school in Egypt and became the dean. It's Prof. Dukey. He studied the Islamic law there with the community. While he was the dean and went back and he wrote a theory "Social Justice". It's a copy of Al Madhab Al Maliki, a copy of the Maliki School of Thought in the area of ownership and description of ownership in Islam. And so on. It's a very famous theory for those who studied it and it's a beautiful thing. When Lenin found out he cannot apply Communism the way he wanted to and he wanted to make changes he called on Prof. Dukey to talk to him about what is called NEP, the New Economic Plan. For those who studied Soviet law they will find that so many articles are taken on the basis of his theory that is from the Maliki School of Thought in Islam. This does not mean we are communist or socialist. No. It's a unique system. I don't have the time to sit down and explain it to you. But this is Islam. the taliban has painted an ugly picture of islam, and many countries have implied an irrational set of rules, that is not islam.
Now i've already stressed on how many people/countries have not truly understood islam and thus have provided the world with an ugly picture to see. in my previous post ive already explained how men and women are equal, yes women are changing we have women doctors, bankers, CEOs, police officers, and what not, and yes the qur'an supports them. the qur'an stresses on education and knowledge, women are encouraged to purse their studies, and are allowed to have careers, but if they have children at home they are to give their first priority to the children, since those children will be the future generation of muslims. and we all know what happens to neglected children, i won't go into child psychology. but you have to understand the different between what the qur'an says and how people apply it. women are NOT oppressed in islam, they are equal, they ARE allowed to study, and they ARE allowed careers, and the qur'an has always stated this, so it didn't have to adjust to anything!