Paul's Opinion or the Holy Ghost?

[Ehav4Ever]

These are explanations of a viewpoint which, logically, doesn't fit the dialogue.

That is because you are reading an English Christian translation. Jewish sources on the text state exactly what I showed from the "Hebrew text." See below.

He was considered, by virtue of what is read. Hashem (God) called Him a prophet and we know that what was written was written by God.

Ah. Now you have proven my previous point about how Christians define proephecy, and even now, you have shown that Christians often view how their bible came to be differently than how Torath Mosheh Jews claim the Hebrew Tanakh came about.

For example, Torath Mosheh Jews do not claim that the book of Melekhim was written by Hashem. Hashem did not write the book of Melachim and IN FACT, Hashem did not dictate what the content would be. According to Torath Mosheh Jewish sources Yirmeyahu wrote the book of Melakhim.

God didn't call him a false prophet... He called Him a prophet.

If you consider the old man to be a prophet then your definition of what a prophet is – is completely different than what Torath Mosheh definition is.

Given that you didn’t read the original Hebrew text, you may have missed the statements which notes that he was a false prophet living in an area that was full of Avodah Zara. Luckily, Torath Mosheh sources note the parts of the text that note him to have been a false prophet. See the below list.

He is called a prophet before he lied. And then he prophesied the death of the death of the other prophet because God did call Him a prophet.

According to Jewish sources, if someone were to prophecy 100 times and 1 out of 99 times they claimed Hashem told them something that Hashem did not tell them they were/are a false prophet and they invalidate everything that said/stood for all 99 times. The Hebrew text gives no evidence that the “Old Man” (who was living in an area where Avodah Zara) was rampant was ever a “real prophet.”

Again, according to Jewish sources the book of Melakhim was not written or dictated by Hashem. Thus, it is a history where Yirmeyahu chose what the content was and given that Yirmeyahu wrote in the Hebrew of his day reading it in Hebrew is way more reliable to understand than an English translation.

Remember, you did say that what was written was written by God

I did not say that the book of Melakhim was written by Hashem. I stated that the Hebrew Torah (which is five books) was written by Mosheh (Moses) which was dictated and shown to him by Hashem. Melakhim was written by Yirmeyahu w/o dictation from Hashem.

So, you may want to rediscover what was written and dig a little deeper before you come to a conclusion.

Given that I am actually reading the original in Hebrew and given that I learn from Jewish sources that are directly connected to the text and what produced it I think I will be okay. Your concern for my well being is kindly noted.

After all, you don't want to be like Aaron and say "They threw in the gold and out popped the image"

The problem you have with Aharon is because you are reading translations you don’t under what he said nor what he meant what he said when he stated:

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I wouldn't know since you have established just what you believe I believe

Actually, you gave your definition for what a prophet is and what is prophecy earlier in this thread when you brought up 1st Kings 13. Also, you have stated it before in other threads spread throughout the RF Sphere. So, I got a good idea of your beleifs from your own words.

 

[Kenny]

That is because you are reading an English Christian translation. Jewish sources on the text state exactly what I showed from the "Hebrew text." See below.

No... what you offered was commentaries. We have a lot of commentaries too... some are excellent but still can miss it on a point or two, IMO.

Ah. Now you have proven my previous point about how Christians define proephecy, and even now, you have shown that Christians often view how their bible came to be differently than how Torath Mosheh Jews claim the Hebrew Tanakh came about.

For example, Torath Mosheh Jews do not claim that the book of Melekhim was written by Hashem. Hashem did not write the book of Melachim and IN FACT, Hashem did not dictate what the content would be. According to Torath Mosheh Jewish sources Yirmeyahu wrote the book of Melakhim.

Not really. You are reading into it because I didn't define prophecy.

So you are saying that the Torah wasn't divinely inspired?

According to Jewish sources, if someone were to prophecy 100 times and 1 out of 99 times they claimed Hashem told them something that Hashem did not tell them they were/are a false prophet and they invalidate everything that said/stood for all 99 times. The Hebrew text gives no evidence that the “Old Man” (who was living in an area where Avodah Zara) was rampant was ever a “real prophet.”

Again, according to Jewish sources the book of Melakhim was not written or dictated by Hashem. Thus, it is a history where Yirmeyahu chose what the content was and given that Yirmeyahu wrote in the Hebrew of his day reading it in Hebrew is way more reliable to understand than an English translation.

And since the old prophet didn't miss when he prophesied (you are defining it the same why I am)... he must be a prophet. Certainly don't see where he missed one. Not one.

I did not say that the book of Melakhim was written by Hashem. I stated that the Hebrew Torah (which is five books) was written by Mosheh (Moses) which was dictated and shown to him by Hashem. Melakhim was written by Yirmeyahu w/o dictation from Hashem.

Here, in my view, you are playing with words. If I dictate to a secretary and she writes, technically you could say she wrote it but legally I still wrote it.

If it wasn't dictated by Hashem, then you would have no basis to believe a word of it.

Given that I am actually reading the original in Hebrew and given that I learn from Jewish sources that are directly connected to the text and what produced it I think I will be okay. Your concern for my well being is kindly noted.

The problem you have with Aharon is because you are reading translations you don’t under what he said nor what he meant what he said when he stated:

I think I understand it well enough. But, as always, the biggest room I have in my life is room for improvement. When you have a good point, I will learn from it.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

No... what you offered was commentaries.

Given that a written text is a commentary on a situation and given that the author of Melakhim was Yirmeyahu who was a Israeli/Jew and given that the Jews of today are descendants of Yirmeyahu's family, students, etc. Your point is mute.

Especially since ALL translations, including yours, is a commentary. I.e. the translotor of your chosen book used commentary to translate and inserted his/her own commentary into the translation. See below.

Not really. You are reading into it because I didn't define prophecy.

You provided enough information for me to know that your definition and that of Torath Mosheh are not the same.

So you are saying that the Torah wasn't divinely inspired?

I am saying two things.

1. Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish claim that the entire written Torah was dictacted by Hashem to Mosheh. I.e. from start to finish, including the spellings, spacings, letter sizes, etc. all came from Hashem and Mosheh (Moses) simply copied what he was shown/told to write.
   • Further, according to Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews Mosheh (Moses) did not get to decide what information went into the Torah scroll. He also had no opinions that were entered into the text. Whatever stories Hashem told him to put in the written text he did that, what ever events/instructions, failings, etc. were all things he wrote exactly as it had been given to him.
2. The Hebrew text called (מלכים א) Melakhim Aleph was written by Yirmeyahu HaNavi and was not dictated to him by Hashem. Thus, it is not on the level of the Torah, as far as Torath Mosheh Jews have always been concerned.

And since the old prophet didn't miss when he prophesied (you are defining it the same why I am)... he must be a prophet.

You didn't read what I wrote I see. You are free to ignore it, but I did already defined for you how Torath Mosheh Jews define a false prophet. One hit out of many misses makes someone a false prophet for us (Torath Mosheh Jews). Doing Avodah Zara and tripping up people makes one a false prophet for us (Torath Mosheh Jews); even if you get a judgement call right when Hashem wants one to for that one moment; still they are a false prophet. That is the lesson that Yirmeyahu was trying to teach Torath Mosheh Jews with this story.

Of course, Christians have a different standard which they get from their own commentaries and such.

I think I understand it well enough.

Of course you do.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I think both of my Christian tradition parents kind of like that I'm single, because they both seem to come from the standpoint that there's either something lewd about the woman in my generation, or there's something spiritually impure about too much connection between the sexes. I think my mother is naturally prudish, and I don't think she likes other woman that much, and my dad shows similar attitudes. So I take it that in the Jewish tradition, maybe these sorts of attitudes don't really come up as much, right?

You are correct, something like that is very rare almost to a point of not existing in the Jewish tradition. A person's children getting married and starting their own families is pretty much globally seen as one of the highest honors for Jewish parents. It is how the Jewish way of Torah life continues and thrives. Not having been married and raising children is seen as a very bad sign and point of sadness.

Recently, there was even a thing called the "Shidduck Crises" where older religious Jews in the western world were having problems getting married for the first time. The problem was mostly connected to Jews who were born in western socieities where marriage was not as much of a focus. Some of the Jews this effected were also Jews who became religious later in life and then had a hard time finding a spouse since Jews who are born in a Torah observant family marry young. I remember once a rabbi here in Israel who would do large Q&A sessions for anyone who had questions about Torah was approached by a man with a question. The question was about the man's brother. The man's older brother was 50 years old but w/o children. The man was in tears of how painful it was for him and his entire family to see his older brother at the age of 50 w/o children.

In fact, the following videos may give some additional insight.

 

[Kenny]

Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish claim that the entire written Torah was dictacted by Hashem to Mosheh. I.e. from start to finish, including the spellings, spacings, letter sizes, etc. all came from Hashem and Mosheh (Moses) simpl copied what he was shown/told to write.

it seems like you just contradicted yourself. If Hashem dictated it, then Hashem wrote it.

So, I'm not sure what we are discussing here... you seem to say one thing and then turn around and say something different.

You didn't read what I wrote I see. You are free to ignore it, but I did define for you how Torath Mosheh Jews define a false prophet. One hit out of many misses maks someone a false prophet for us. Doing Avodah Zara and tripping up people makes one a false prophet for us; even if you get a judgement call right when Hashem wants one to for that one moment.

Yes... as good Jews, we argue about everything

And you may just be right.... I won't be dogmatic about it.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And then my paternal great-grandmother I guess, may have been Jewish, but married a Christian of some kind. I guess she converted for whatever reason

In Europe and in America this has happened. When I lived in NYC, I once met a girl from Spain who grew up as a Catholic there with only her father. Her father and his family never talked about her mother; to the point of refusing to talk about her. The girl said that when got old enough she decided that she wanted to find her mother. She spent several years searching all over Spain for her mother until one day she found her in a hospital. Her mother was on the verge of dying when she found her.

She explained that her mother told her the she [the mother] was Jewish from a family with the last name Katz. When the girl's mother was younger she met a young Catholic man and fell in love with him. She left the Jewish community to marry the young Catholic man and she lived with him away from her Jewish family. When the girl was born her Catholic father become angry that the girl's mother (who was Jewish) refused to convert to Catholicism. When the girl was about a year or so old her father took her away from her mother and went to his family to hide her. The girl's mother said she spent years trying to find her with no success. The girl told us that before her Jewish mother died she made the following appeal to the girl.

"You are a Jew, just like I am a Jew. Don't make the same mistake I made. Marry a Jewish man - be a Jew."
​

Then her mother died. The girl told me and several others this story with her non-Jewish boyfriend in tow. Her only question after this story was, what type of Jew was she - A Sephardic Jew or an Ashkenazi Jew. There were people there who incorrectly tried addressing this question. When she tried to ask me I was about to tell her that she should listen to the advice her mother gave her.......but someone made an announcement at the event and the topic got lost. I don't know what ever happened to her.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

it seems like you just contradicted yourself. If Hashem dictated it, then Hashem wrote it.

So, I'm not sure what we are discussing here... you seem to say one thing and then turn around and say something different.

Yeah, you are right. I am the one doing that. Right.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The following video shows that translation as a process is commentary. So, if you are reading something translated from another language you are reading the commentary of the particular translator. Also, the text itself is a commentary of something the author wanted to comment on or express..

 

[2ndpillar]

it seems like you just contradicted yourself. If Hashem dictated it, then Hashem wrote it.

So, I'm not sure what we are discussing here... you seem to say one thing and then turn around and say something different.



Yes... as good Jews, we argue about everything

And you may just be right.... I won't be dogmatic about it.

You might want to define "Hashem". The only thing originally written down was the "Words", the 10 commandments, and that was done personally be the hand of God. The rest was initially passed down orally, and as mentioned in Jeremiah, that was made into a lie (Jeremiah 8:8). As for your "Christianity", they generally call the son of man, God, and he dictated nothing, and was often quoted differently from different people. Even Luke's twin stories about the false prophet in the wilderness, differs greatly by the same teller of other people's stories. As for you being a good Jew, the Jews of today deem their Jewishness with regard to their mother, which could mean you have Ishmael as our father, and not Judah. In your case, it is probably a status based on a self-imposed state of mind.

 

[Kenny]

You might want to define "Hashem". The only thing originally written down was the "Words", the 10 commandments, and that was done personally be the hand of God. The rest was initially passed down orally, and as mentioned in Jeremiah, that was made into a lie (Jeremiah 8:8). As for your "Christianity", they generally call the son of man, God, and he dictated nothing, and was often quoted differently from different people. Even Luke's twin stories about the false prophet in the wilderness, differs greatly by the same teller of other people's stories. As for you being a good Jew, the Jews of today deem their Jewishness with regard to their mother, which could mean you have Ishmael as our father, and not Judah. In your case, it is probably a status based on a self-imposed state of mind.

There is much that you write here that is true. As far as "Jewish", wan't Rahab a non-Jew?

Besides, we are talking about Paul here.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

In fact, the following videos may give some additional insight.

I do like to listen to that channel from time to time, seemed like there are good explanations

I wish rabbi Tovia Singer would have his books as kindle versions, I would probably read one.

In Europe and in America this has happened.

I see. Maybe it was something like that story, that happened

Yeah all I know is something about her being from budapest, and she spoke several languages, had olive skin, and her maiden name was meyer.. Or something like that, I maybe don't recall the exact spelling.

Well, nice talking to you, and ken as well. I think it's time for me to move on to some other thread, I'm out of steam

 

[2ndpillar]

There is much that you write here that is true. As far as "Jewish", wan't Rahab a non-Jew?

Besides, we are talking about Paul here.

Noah was a non-Jew and was "saved" from the flood because he had acted righteously. Abraham was a non-Jew, but was blessed by God, because he had acted righteously. Rahab was saved from Israel, because she was righteous in that she had acted righteously, not because she believed and followed some false prophet down the road to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13). The "rock"/"stone" is built on righteousness, and justice (Isaiah 28:16-17).

 

[Kenny]

Noah was a non-Jew and was "saved" from the flood because he had acted righteously. Abraham was a non-Jew, but was blessed by God, because he had acted righteously. Rahab was saved from Israel, because she was righteous in that she had acted righteously, not because she believed and followed some false prophet down the road to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13). The "rock"/"stone" is built on righteousness, and justice (Isaiah 28:16-17).

Let me rephrase, if the Jewishness is based on the mother, what happened to those who were descendants of Rahab? If righteousness make you Jewish, I have the coat of righteousness and Jesus is the "rock".

 

[Muffled]

So, in 1 Corinthians 7:1 it is stated, "Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry." Later in 1 Corinthians 7:8-9 the following is stated - “To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single, as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.”

This brings me to the following questions.

1. Was this Paul's personal opinion or does Christianity beleive that he wrote it by way of the holy spirit?
   • In verse 10 he seems to be saying what is written there is didn't come from but from a "higher power." So would that mean that everything prior he claimed came from the holy spirit?
2. Was Paul's statement only for the Corinthians or for all Christians for all time?
3. Was Paul okay with unmarried and widow Christians having intimate relations, of whatever type, but avoiding marriage?
4. If all the unmarried and widow Christians of his time had remained single, like Paul, what would have been the next step?
   • Reliance on conversions to increase their fold?

1. My verse 1 says "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman" but in verse 2 he says But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. Verse 10 refers to divorce and God in the OT said: Mal. 2:16 “For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the LORD, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts.

 

[2ndpillar]

Let me rephrase, if the Jewishness is based on the mother, what happened to those who were descendants of Rahab? If righteousness make you Jewish, I have the coat of righteousness and Jesus is the "rock".

Doing right makes you righteous. Being born of a Jewish woman does not make you Jewish. That is simply a tradition of the Jews (Talmud). As for the descendants of Rahab, as with the descendants of Noah and Abraham, some were righteous, and some were not. Apparently, Edom/Essau (Malachi 1:3) didn't make the grade. As for the "tested stone", that would be the "Words" of God, also known as the Commandments, found in the Arc of the Covenant. It is he "who believes in it will not be disturbed". (Isaiah 28:15-18). You are making Yeshua a "stumbling block", which according to Matthew 13:41, does not end well.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

1. My verse 1 says "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman" but in verse 2 he says But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. Verse 10 refers to divorce and God in the OT said: Mal. 2:16 “For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the LORD, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts.

I guess there is more than one version and more than one way to translate it.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

1. My verse 1 says "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman" but in verse 2 he says But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. Verse 10 refers to divorce and God in the OT said: Mal. 2:16 “For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the LORD, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Here are a few Christian commentaries on this.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

He was not advocating celibacy. Marriage is the image of Jesus and the Church.

I think Paul makes it abundantly clear that celibacy is preferable to marriage. For Paul, getting married was something you only did if you did not have the self control to be celibate.