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Paul created Calvanism!!!

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Would you say you are righteous? Or wicked? Or both?
Righteous. Now before you pick up stones, consider what it means for a man to be righteous. It does not mean he is as righteous as YHVH. It does not mean that he is perfect. It means a man is diligently following YHVH's ways and repenting when he fails. King David committing horrible sins but he always turned back to YHVH. Even YHVH declares that no man was as righteous as king David!
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
You misunderstand what Paul is saying.

Of Jacob and Esau, he says:
Romans 9: 10 Not only then but also when Re·bek′ah conceived twins from the one man, Isaac our forefather;+11 for when they had not yet been born and had not practiced anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose respecting the choosing might continue dependent, not on works, but on the One who calls, 12 it was said to her: “The older will be the slave of the younger.”13 Just as it is written: “I loved Jacob, but E′sau I hated.
Paul is quoting from Malachi 1:2-3 where it says:
Mal 1:2 “I have shown love to you people,”+ says Jehovah. But you say: “How have you shown us love?”
“Was not E′sau the brother of Jacob?”+ declares Jehovah. “But I loved Jacob,3 and E′sau I hated;+ and I made his mountains desolate+ and left his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.”

So firstly, Paul is teaching from the writings of the prophets.
Secondly, Paul is talking about the 'wrath of 'God' upon those who disobey and of Gods mercy upon those who are obedient.
He says' “If, now, God, although having the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, tolerated with much long-suffering vessels of wrath made fit for destruction, in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared before hand for glory, namely, us, whom he called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, what of it?”Romans 9:14-24.
I've underlined the context here... .God tolerates people who are disobedient in order to demonstrate his power and show his mercy toward those who are obedient. God tolerates the wicked... he does not pre-ordain them to act wickedly nor does he interfere with our free-will.

So what Paul is saying does have its founding in the hebrew scriptures




Jesus himself revealed that the full number of those who would rule with him in heaven amount to 12x12x12

Rev 7;2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise,* having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed+ the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”+
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000,+ sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:+


Revelation 14:1 Then I saw, and look! the Lamb+ standing on Mount Zion,+ and with him 144,000+ who have his name and the name of his Father+ written on their foreheads.

Paul is one of the 144,000.

Paul is misquoting the Hebrew scriptures all throughout Romans 9, and many other places as well. Obviously Romans was written to mostly non Jews who had no way of fact checking Paul's quotes. Its also obvious that Paul's letters were meant to be read as doctrine themselves. If Paul thought people would be fact checking his statements he certainly wouldn't have been as blatantly deceptive as he was in Romans. I would be happy to go through each of Paul's quotes to show exactly how he has twisted them from the original context.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Its always good to read the whole Psalm. Look at the end:

"Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my thoughts; and see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." Psalm 139:23-24
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Isaiah 45:7

Another classic that Calvinists like to quote as proof that God has created evil also comes from Isaiah.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

These words certainly seem to paint a gut-wrenching picture of God actually admitting to being responsible for creating evil. No thought could be further from the truth or more blasphemous. What God is speaking of is obviously the opposite of "peace", in the same way He contrasted "light" and "darkness". This peace means tranquility of life, and the word translated "evil" more literally means "calamity". Some translations, including the NKJV, actually use the word "calamity" in this verse instead of "evil". This calamity is the picture of God's judgment on man for his sinful deeds. Many examples of this type of picture could be cited. The great flood was a major calamity and judgment on man. There was judgment in the form of calamity on Sodom and Gomorrah, Pharaoh in Egypt, Israel in the wilderness, and so on. Many times this judgment is called "evil". Here are a couple of examples where the same Hebrew word is used.

And the Lord repented of the evil ("harm" NKJV)which he thought to do unto his people. Exodus 32:14 KJV

"Thus says the Lord: 'Stand in the court of the Lord's house, and speak to all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the Lord's house, all the words that I command you to speak to them. Do not diminish a word. Perhaps (What? God didn't know for sure?!) everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the evil ("calamity" NKJV) which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings." Jeremiah 26:2-3

Note: By using the word "perhaps", it should be apparent that God wasn't even sure if the people would repent! So much for Calvinism's concept of an all-knowing God.

Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel: 'Behold, I will bring on Judah and on all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil ("doom" NKJV) that I have pronounced against them; because I have spoken to them but they have not heard, and I have called to them but they have not answered.'" Jeremiah 35:17

These are examples of the same "evil" God was speaking of in Isaiah 45:7. God most certainly did not bring evil into existence as though it would not exist had He not created it.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
Just found out late in my Christian life that I'm a 4 point or 4 1/2 Calvinism. IOW, I did not start as a Calvinist nor did I follow nor did I go to their church to begin with. As I studied and learned the word of God I begin to understand the meaning of Calvinism, NOT as a Calvinist OR influence by Calvinism, but as a Christian first. Do Christians today have some of the points of Calvinism? Let’s examine ourselves.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
"Calvinist doctrine

Here are the five main points of Calvinist doctrine commonly known by the memory-crutch T-U-L-I-P.

1. Total depravity. This means that each individual is conceived guilty of Adam's sin and lost... even before birth.
2. Unconditional election. Is the belief that God has predetermined who and how many will be saved regardless of man's efforts.
3. Limited atonement. Yahshua's sacrifice didn't atone for all men, but only for those who are chosen by God's unconditional election.
4. Irresistible grace. Those who are chosen cannot resist the operation of the Holy Spirit on their hearts to save them.
5. Perseverance of the Saints. In short... eternal security... once saved, always saved. No chance of backsliding.

It is should be apparent to a logical thinking person that each of these doctrines rest on the assumption that the other four are true. They depend on one another and flow from one another in such a way... that if any one of them were to fall, the rest would fall as well. Let's take a short look at what the Bible has to say about each one of these doctrines to see if even one of them can stand.

Hereditary Total Depravity.

Wrong. Children are conceived and born sinless and are not charged with sin until they are able to know the difference. Man may be born with a propensity for evil, but he is not born guilty. Just a few of the passages that make this evident are the following;

"They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, and shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and daughters..." Psalm 106:37,38

"For before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good... Isaiah 7:16

Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them, But Yahshua said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 19:13,14

And Yahshua called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one little child like this in my name receives me. But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Matthew 18:2-6



Unconditional Election.

Calvin said, "All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and accordingly, as each has been created for one or the other of these ends, we say we have been predestinated to life or to death". Apparently, no one has a say in the matter of their salvation as far as the Calvinists ultra-sovereign picture of God goes. But the Bible is full of passages that put the responsibility squarely in man's lap.

And the Lord commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that He might preserve us alive, as it is this day. Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us. Deuteronomy 6:24,25

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that allshould come to repentance." 2Peter 3:9

It should be apparent from this small sampling of applicable passages that salvation is conditional, and open to all.



Limited Atonement.

It should be evident that limited atonement springs from unconditional election. Calvinism teaches limited atonement because it teaches unconditional election. The reasoning goes that if each and every sin committed by those who are destined to be saved was listed and paid for by Yahshua, why should he have suffered any more than he had to? This completely misrepresents Yahshua's sacrifice. His was a single heavy price that he willingly paid, for the purpose of purchasing for himselfsalvage rites to all of mankind. (More on this later) The accumulative amount of sin committed by those who are saved is irrelevant, and had absolutely nothing to do with the severity of his sacrifice. This is also evident in the passage quoted above.

"...not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2Peter 3:9

"Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." John 1:29



Irresistible Grace.

The circular reasoning is near complete with this one. The flow of logic should again be evident. If man is conceived evil and happens to be one of the lucky few destined for salvation, but at the same time there is nothing he can do on his own behalf to gain salvation, God has to getit to him somehow!! Enter; irresistible grace! The Bible is replete with examples of men rejecting God's good-will and grace toward them. Absolutely nowhere can there be found scripture that suggests man can't resist God's grace! Calvinism doesn't even try to establish this doctrine with Scripture. It is merely a logical outflow from the three previous doctrines.



Perseverance of the Saints

Again, it is obvious that this is a natural outflow of logic from the previous doctrines. It is the necessary conclusion to the doctrines of Calvinism. Here we have much scripture to refute the idea that once someone is saved they are always saved. From the following passages is established the fact that a person certainly can lose their salvation after having acquired it.

"Yet now, if You will forgive their sin--but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written." And the Lord said to Moses "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." Exodus 32:32,33 (see also Revelation 3:5)

"Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered;..." Ezekiel 3:20

There are many Christians who would not want to be characterized as TULIP Calvinists. They will claim that human responsibility is still fully intact in their scheme of things. It is believed by many that both man's responsibility and God's sovereignty in knowing what man will choose to do may be reconciled and understood in the context of the supposed timelessness of God. Many believe that God is outside of time, believing that time is something God created. This is another picture that has its origins in ancient Greek philosophy. It is far from scriptural and it causes more problems than it fixes. If it is true that God knows everything that will transpire, man is at a total loss to explain why God is even bothering with this creation. Timelessness is meaningless and undoes any concept of 'purpose'. Someone will inevitably say that Einstein proved time could be altered. Sorry, no he did not. Even he was forced to admit that his theory was un-provable. It is only theory, and there are many accredited theoretical physicists who haven't the time of day for Einstein's theory of general relativity. Lest I get too far off on this tangent I will refer the interested reader to my arguments in, Was Einstein Right? Time is linear, and there is no substance to it. Therefore it was not created. It is merely demonstrated in the passing of events. The only time that exists at any given moment is the present. The future can be planned for, and the present can be recorded and played back as the past, but these in no way demonstrate the altering of time. God is going through time right with us. "
The Attributes of Deity
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
"Jacob and Esau/loved and hated before birth

The first of Paul's examples is his reference to Jacob and Esau.

And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger.." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." Romans 9:10-13

Is it not plainly evident that Paul wants us to believe God hated Esau before he was even born? This would naturally be the part that people would object to. No one has any difficulty with the picture of God loving someone and blessing them before they were born. Most of us don't even have a problem with the picture of God choosing to bless one person more than another. It is the hating of an individual before they have any say in the matter that screams of injustice. It is to this picture that Paul anticipates an objection and asks the obvious question, "...Is there unrighteousness with God?" Read it again if necessary so it is well established that Paul is in fact claiming God hated Esau before he was born. Take special notice of the words, "not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil".

Now let's look at the two passages Paul quotes, where they are found, and the context in which they were originally spoken. If a person never looked them up, one is compelled to believe these two statements were probably spoken in the same scene if not the same breath. But that is about as far from the truth as it can be. The first statement is found in the first book of the Bible, and the last statement is found in the very last book of the Hebrew Bible. As you read them, please notice here that both passages speak in terms of nationsas opposed to the individuals Jacob and Esau.

"Two nations are in your womb, two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, and the older shall serve the younger." Genesis 25:23

The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi. "I have loved you," says the Lord. "Yet you say, 'In what way have You loved us?' "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" Says the Lord. "Yet Jacob I have loved; but Esau I have hated, and laid waste his mountains and his heritage for the jackals of the wilderness." Even though Edom has said, "We have been impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places." Thus says the Lord of hosts; "They may build, but I will throw down They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, and the people against whom the Lord will have indignation forever." Malachi 1:1-4

Even in the Genesis passage, when God is speaking to pregnant Rebecca, neither Jacob nor Esau as individuals are called by name but are referred to as "nations" and "peoples". Also, please notice that the older one who was also to be the father of a nation is blessed and not cursed in that he would still be the father of an entire nation! In the Malachi passage, God is again referring to nations, and it was spoken over a thousand years after the individuals Jacob and Esau had lived and died! The nation of Edom, which are the descendants of Esau, was despised by God after the fact of their own evil behavior and rebellion against Him. But before this all happened, God loved, blessed, and cared for Esau and his descendants for several hundred years. At a period of time between the recording of these two passages, when Israel was in the wilderness heading toward the promised land, God told Moses...

"You have skirted this mountain long enough; turn northward, and command the people saying, 'You are about to pass through the territory of your brethren, thedescendants of Esau, who live in Seir; and they will be afraid of you. Therefore watch yourselves carefully. Do not meddle with them for I will not give you any of their land, no, not so much as one footstep, because I have given Mount Seir to Esau as a possession." Deuteronomy 2:4,5

Here again, Edom the nation is referred to as "Esau"... in the same manner that Israel is often referred to as "Jacob". What's more, both Esau and his descendants were obviously still loved and blessed for Abraham and Isaac's sake for some time. Esau certainly was not "hated" before he was "born" or had a chance to do "any good or evil" as Paul would have us believe. For Paul to rip these passages out of their context from opposite ends of the Hebrew Bible, spoken over a thousand years apart, and paste them together in this fashion as proof that God predestines and even hates some individuals before they are even born is the most deplorable kind of exegesis imaginable. Any Bible college student would get thrown out of school for such sloppy logic! They'd belong working for some tabloid somewhere. I challenge anyone to find anywhere in the Hebrew Bible that God actually hated Esau before he was born.

When I first noticed this misuse of Scripture was when I considered the possibility that Paul was capable of error. In my research since, I have come to find that this particular error wasn't even the proverbial tip of the iceberg. "
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
"Paul's proof from Moses

From this picture of a God who predestines individuals, Paul anticipates the objection and asks the question himself; "Is there unrighteousness with God?" He does not answer with a logical explanation of how God can righteously condemn a man before he is born. Nor does he simply explain it as God dealing with nations as a whole or as exceptions to the rule. He simply states that God is not unrighteous... avoids dealing with logistical problems altogether... and continues to promote his assertions with more quotes from Scripture. Now he tries to convince us from Moses.

For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is notof him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Romans 9:15,16

This presumed quote is extracted from Exodus 33 where Moses has asked God if he could see His glory. Paul is clearly portraying a God who chooses to show favor on whomever he so desires completely apart from any endeavor of an individual to achieve His favor. Paul's use of the word "whomever" as supposedly used in Exodus is critical here. In his picture, he is using an indefinite word here. He is claiming that God's choosing to have, or not to have, mercy on an individual is true of anybody and everybody, as opposed to anyone specific. This is evident in both the Greek word translated "whomever", and the context in which he uses it. It is a picture that is very misleading as well. Here is the accurate quote from Exodus in its greater context.

Then the Lord said to Moses, "I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name." Then he said, "Please , show me Your glory." Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you, I will be gracious to whomI will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." Exodus 33:17-19

Notice that God is talking specifically to and about Moses as opposed to everybody. The Hebrew word for "whom" is a very definitive word. It is the word "et" #853 in Strong's code. The Gesenius Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon says this word is a "primarily strongly demonstrative" pronoun, which means, "self", or "this same". Even the Hebrew syntax of this phrase is literally rendered as...

"I will favor whom I favor, and I will have mercy on whom I have mercy."

There isn't the slightest ambiguity as to whom God is choosing to favor in the Hebrew text. It is Moses and Moses only! He alone is about to receive a double... or second portion of God's favor and mercy! And this, because he had done that which pleased God and had subsequently "found" the favor which he had sought. And God, speaking in this way of granting a double-portion blessing to someone who has merited it, has a precedence in Abraham!

Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham an second time out of heaven, and said: "By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, in blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which s on the seashore..." Genesis 22:15-17a

Read the passage in Exodus 33 starting at verse 12 and notice how Moses had found favor with God. The thought of actually meriting God's favor is an abomination to a Calvinist. Remember TULIP in chapter 3? They believe there is nothing anyone can do on their own behalf to move up in favor with God no matter how hard they try. But God says much to the contrary. What Paul wants us to get from this misquoted passage is so far from the truth that it is the real abomination in the eyes of heaven. He wants us to believe, "it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.""
Attributes part 3
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Paul is misquoting the Hebrew scriptures all throughout Romans 9, and many other places as well. Obviously Romans was written to mostly non Jews who had no way of fact checking Paul's quotes. Its also obvious that Paul's letters were meant to be read as doctrine themselves. If Paul thought people would be fact checking his statements he certainly wouldn't have been as blatantly deceptive as he was in Romans. I would be happy to go through each of Paul's quotes to show exactly how he has twisted them from the original context.

there are many jews even today who do not all agree on what the hebrew scriptures mean. So simply deciding that Paul is misquoting the hebrew scriptures does not work. There are many different schools of thought as to how the hebrew scriptures apply even within Judaism itself. The christians had their views as to how they apply, the pharisees held different views to the saducees and then there were the fringe groups such as the Essenes who held different views and had different interpretations as well.

So to simply claim Paul is misquoting is silly because we could say that any other Jewish teacher whom we dont agree with are also misquoting the scriptures. Its a 'your word against his' scenario.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
there are many jews even today who do not all agree on what the hebrew scriptures mean. So simply deciding that Paul is misquoting the hebrew scriptures does not work. There are many different schools of thought as to how the hebrew scriptures apply even within Judaism itself. The christians had their views as to how they apply, the pharisees held different views to the saducees and then there were the fringe groups such as the Essenes who held different views and had different interpretations as well.

So to simply claim Paul is misquoting is silly because we could say that any other Jewish teacher whom we dont agree with are also misquoting the scriptures. Its a 'your word against his' scenario.
I'm not talking about sectarian interpretation. I am talking about Paul changing the actual text itself. I have already highlighted two of the times he abuses scripture in Rom 9. There is still a few more to go.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Righteous. Now before you pick up stones, consider what it means for a man to be righteous. It does not mean he is as righteous as YHVH. It does not mean that he is perfect. It means a man is diligently following YHVH's ways and repenting when he fails. King David committing horrible sins but he always turned back to YHVH. Even YHVH declares that no man was as righteous as king David!

That's the thing. You can be both righteous and unrighteous. And you are. To deny that would a function of your unrighteousness. David is the perfect example. David performed both righteousness and unrighteousness, as do all men. The reason Jesus says that God is the only good, is because it's absolutely true. Not Moses. Not David. Not Job. Not Jesus. Their righteousness is not theirs, and did not originate with them. Our righteousness is not ours, and does not originate with us. All righteousness belongs to, and originates with God. Very simple. God is perfect in His righteousness, lacking nothing, whereas all of His creations lack in comparison. Refer to the quote I provided earlier, "you being evil."
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
That's the thing. You can be both righteous and unrighteous. And you are. To deny that would a function of your unrighteousness. David is the perfect example. David performed both righteousness and unrighteousness, as do all men. The reason Jesus says that God is the only good, is because it's absolutely true. Not Moses. Not David. Not Job. Not Jesus. Their righteousness is not theirs, and did not originate with them. Our righteousness is not ours, and does not originate with us. All righteousness belongs to, and originates with God. Very simple. God is perfect in His righteousness, lacking nothing, whereas all of His creations lack in comparison. Refer to the quote I provided earlier, "you being evil."

It seems like you are defining righteousness by the idea of being perfect. Which is not the way YHVH defines it.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Vindicate me, LORD, because I am innocent, because I am blameless, O Exalted One! ...
Judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, according to my integrity Psalm 7:8
 
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Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
"And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger.." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then, it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'Even for this same purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared in all the earth.' Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?' But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" Romans 9:10-24

I don't even need to argue this point. Just read what Paul says.
Calvinism is a false belief. Calvinism says that no one can believe in God until God first saves them by giving them the Holy Spirit; however, God has hardened people in the past, and since God hardened people, this proves that we are can believe and obey God of our own free will.

If we cannot believe in God until after the Holy Spirit causes us to believe, then why did God find need to harden anyone? Why didn't God just not cause them to believe by not giving them the Holy Spirit?
 

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
"And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger.." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then, it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'Even for this same purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared in all the earth.' Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?' But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" Romans 9:10-24

I don't even need to argue this point. Just read what Paul says.
God knew that Esau would give away his inheritance for a bowl of soup.

God knew that Jacob would struggle to know God.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
God knew that Esau would give away his inheritance for a bowl of soup.

God knew that Jacob would struggle to know God.
I don't believe God knew those details. I do believe he wanted the birthright to go to Jacob though.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Vindicate me, LORD, because I am innocent, because I am blameless, O Exalted One! ...
Judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, according to my integrity Psalm 7:8

It seems like you are defining righteousness by the idea of being perfect. Which is not the way YHVH defines it.

Being righteous does not mean you are perfect. This was actually my point. Of course you attribute righteousness to yourself, as did the authors of the Tanakh, and people living today, whether they actually are or not. That's a direct cause of the ego, or the illusion that you own anything, including your will.

You quote Psalm 7:8. But who is it referring to? And for what circumstance? Surely you aren't reading this autobiographical statement as a proof of absolute innocence, righteousness and integrity? -- Both righteousness and wickedness, good and evil, are natural. This is evident from the Eden story, but also from everyday life. You actually are required to gain wisdom through trial and error. You are required to eat the good with the bad, to determine which is which, and to determine the best courses of action for well being. That's the foundation for the "Son of Man" idea. We are the sons of Adam, and of thousands of forefathers who may, or may not have given us an inheritance of righteous teaching. The "Son of Man" is associated with the wisdom of our forefathers, in contrast with the ignorance, or the evil teachings we may have inherited as well.

--But again, I want you to consider who you are calling God. You're looking on a page, at the words of a fellow man. I suggest you use your God-given precedence, which has you living on the Earth, in their stead. Use your brain; your judgement. Don't just blindly accept something because it is written with the name YHVH next to it. Actually attempt righteous judgment, because as a son of the Most High, you are naturally somewhat capable of knowing God's word.
 
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Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Of course, God knows what is going to happen before it happens.
I do believe God knows the things He is going to do in the future. Like the many prophecies He has declared. I don't believe that He knows the future in detail.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
--But again, I want you to consider who you are calling God. You're looking on a page, at the words of a fellow man. I suggest you use your God-given precedence, which has you living on the Earth, in their stead. Use your brain; your judgement. Don't just blindly accept something because it is written with the name YHVH next to it. Actually attempt righteous judgment, because as a son of the Most High, you are naturally somewhat capable of knowing God's word.

I have made my choice on who I have devoted my life to. I have searched and questioned and toiled for much of my life. I haven't blindly accepted anything. I have actually gotten rid of much of the doctrine and teachings about YHVH that I learned from my youth. The God I serve is more than just words on a page. He visits me when I seek Him in secret and sincerity. He has been a friend to me in times of distress. He has rescued me in combat when I as all alone. He has shown me His goodness and I follow His precepts because I am confident that there is none other like Him.

Your assumption that my adherence to His commands is contrary to "righteous judgement" is completely false imho. My life is dedicated to not just doing His commands but meditating on them as well. This is where true wisdom is found.

1My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
2So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
3Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. Proverbs 2:1-5

I regard the words of Solomon very high. He was a man who searched for happiness in every arena of life and found emptiness. I can relate to this. But Solomon sums up the true point to life towards the end of his days and it is worth our attention.

13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Eccl 12: 13-14
 
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