Paticcasamuppada: Three lifetimes?

[von bek]

Hello, all.

This is a subject that I have been going back and forth on, and would love to hear some feedback from others who have turned this matter over in their minds.

Paticcasamuppada is the 12 Link Chain of Causation that the Buddha frequently mentions in the suttas. Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of Dependent Co-arising

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Nidānas#The_Twelve_Nidanas

A quick rundown on the chain is:
1. Conditioned by ignorance, sankhara arises.
2. Conditioned by sankhara, vinnana arises.
3. Conditioned by vinnana, namarupa arises.
4. Conditioned by namarupa, the six-fold sense bases arise.
5. Conditioned by the six-fold sense base, contact arises.
6. Conditioned by contact, vedana arises.
7. Conditioned by vedana, tanha arises.
8. Conditioned by tanha, upadana arises.
9. Conditioned by upadana, becoming arises.
10. Conditioned by becoming, birth arises.
11. Conditioned by birth, suffering, sickness, old age and death arise.

Now, here is where my question comes. Buddhaghosa, the compiler of the Visuddhimagga, states that this chain takes place over three lifetimes. His breakdown is that the first two links, ignorance and sankhara, refer to the previous life, the middle eight are in the present life, while the last two links of birth and death lie in a future life. In other words, because of past ignorance and past sankharas, a process is playing out in this life that will give rise to a future rebirth and a future death in a subsequent existence.

I do not know whether I agree with Buddhaghosa or not on this matter. Whenever the Buddha describes the Link of Causation in the suttas, he gives no hint that the process encompasses multiple lives. However, as every moment we pass away and are reborn, both understandings can possibly be preserved, if by previous life we also understand it can refer to a previous moment. There is a logic to saying that past ignorance and sankharas are constantly conditioning the arising of the five aggregates in our present existence. And, if the chain is not broken in this life, there will be a future rebirth and death. On the other hand it seems, in context, that when the Buddha speaks of paticcasamuppada, he is speaking of a process that arises constantly, from full beginning to end, every moment.

Anyone else have some thoughts on the matter?

 

[DreadFish]

My current stance is that this works on both a life scale and moment by moment. There have been a number of modern meditation masters who have described the process of birth and death as happening moment by moment.

 

[von bek]

My current stance is that this works on both a life scale and moment by moment. There have been a number of modern meditation masters who have described the process of birth and death as happening moment by moment.

One of the things prompting this thread is that I recently read a work of Buddhadasa's, specifically criticizing Buddhaghosa's interpretation of the subject. Buddhadasa has a strong dislike of the position. In fact, he rejects it as undermining the teaching of anatta, and goes on much further... I think some of the criticism goes too far in the book; however, the core argument, that paticcasamuppada is a process that arises and ceases moment by moment, in every lifetime, is a good interpretation of what the Buddha says on the subject.

However, I would also agree that because sankharas are kamma in the scheme of the Five Aggregates, it is not exactly wrong to say that past sankharas can "activate" and form a chain of causation to arise in this present life.

In other words, I think we agree, it's both.

 

[von bek]

Just to make clear, Buddhadasa does believe in kamma and rebirth, even though he argues against the three-lifetime theory of paticcasamuppada. His argument is not against rebirth in multiple bodies, it is against interpreting the specific formula of the 12 Link Chain as being a process that needs three lifetimes to complete.

Buddhadasa says the formula of the 12 Link Chain of Causation is for an experience that can happen numerous times within the span of a second. He also argues that this is the only way to make sense of what the Buddha is saying. If you frame it in terms of multiple lifetimes, (he argues) you fundamentally distort the Buddha's point. According to Buddhadasa, that point is you can use the proper understanding of the Chain, by practicing insight into its continuous rise and fall, to attain Nibbana. Splitting it into different physical lifetimes makes it impossible to use the teaching of paticcasamuppada in vipassana as you cannot directly observe sankharas from previous lifetimes, nor would you ever have the ability to directly observe a specific chain's eventual cessation as it would lie in a future life.

 

[DreadFish]

Yeah, that makes sense to me. I respect Buddhadasa's point of view too. I dont know much about Buddhaghosa but, according to what i've read, he was a scholar and commentator and hoped to gain merit to be reborn in heaven until Maitreya takes birth so that he could hear his teaching and attain englightenment.

Buddhadasa was a meditator and sought to teach the Dharma free from specifice religious doctrine. He sounds like the more insightful of the two, IMO.

 

[von bek]

I dont know much about Buddhaghosa but, according to what i've read, he was a scholar and commentator and hoped to gain merit to be reborn in heaven until Maitreya takes birth so that he could hear his teaching and attain englightenment.

Many in the Theravada tradition consider Buddhaghosa as an arahant. If he was an arahant, then I consider his teachings accurate. He definitely has an incredible knowledge of Buddhism. If you haven't checked it out already, I strongly recommend Buddhaghosa's seminal work, the Visuddhimagga, its importance in the Theravada tradition cannot be overstated. I feel safe in saying that if he was not an arahant in his life, he had to have been at the least a stream-enterer...

Point being, even though I am not sure if I agree with Buddhghosa, I know I need to give due consideration to what he says when it comes to understanding the Dhamma. He is not someone to be dismissed out of hand.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Buddhadasa says the formula of the 12 Link Chain of Causation is for an experience that can happen numerous times within the span of a second. He also argues that this is the only way to make sense of what the Buddha is saying. If you frame it in terms of multiple lifetimes, (he argues) you fundamentally distort the Buddha's point. According to Buddhadasa, that point is you can use the proper understanding of the Chain, by practicing insight into its continuous rise and fall, to attain Nibbana. Splitting it into different physical lifetimes makes it impossible to use the teaching of paticcasamuppada in vipassana as you cannot directly observe sankharas from previous lifetimes, nor would you ever have the ability to directly observe a specific chain's eventual cessation as it would lie in a future life.

I don't find this argument convincing because even with the 3-life model you can observe the relevant process which leads to clinging: the section of DO including sense-bases, contact, feeling, craving, and clinging. I don't find Buddhadasa's purely psychological interpretation of DO convincing, not least because it isn't supported by the nidana "definitions" in the suttas, eg in SN12.2: Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of Dependent Co-arising Note in particular how birth, ageing and death are clearly described in physical rather than psychological terms, and how bhava ( becoming ) occurs in the 3 realms rather than just in the mind.

 

[von bek]

I have pondered this subject a lot. Right now I feel that part of the elegance of Dependent Origination is that it can be observed as operating on a number of levels. Psychology and cosmology are connected in the Buddhadhamma. I believe that saying Dependent Origination is a model of how three successive lives are connected without an underlying atman is part of what is going on; but, the teaching cannot be entirely separated from continuous experience. The 12 Links are rising and falling every moment. However, the commentaries are correct in pointing out that ignorance and mental formations from previous lifetimes are conditioning the namarupa and the sense bases of this present life. And, it is also logical to see how craving and clinging in this life will lead to future birth and death. The more I think about it, the more I think both Buddhaghosa and Buddhadasa are correct. You don't have to pick one interpretation while discarding the other.

 

[von bek]

Note in particular how birth, ageing and death are clearly described in physical rather than psychological terms, and how bhava ( becoming ) occurs in the 3 realms rather than just in the mind.

I honestly read it as both physical and psychological. I want to make it clear that I am not someone who denies rebirth in different physical bodies. But, four of the five aggregates are mental. You can directly experience the disappearance/dissolution of one of the mental aggregates without your physical body passing away. Same thing with birth. Because of ignorance, any one of the sense bases can activate the part of the chain beginning with craving and ending in death.

I don't think what you say above is wrong, exactly. It is just that the more I study it, the more profound the teaching of Dependent Origination appears to be. It is good to remember the Buddha's admonishment to Ananda when Ananda said that paticcasamuppada was simple to understand in the Mahanidana Sutta:

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Kurus. Now, theKurus have a town named Kammasadhamma. There Ven. Ananda approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "It's amazing, lord, it's astounding, how deep this dependent co-arising is, and how deep its appearance, and yet to me it seems as clear as clear can be."

[The Buddha:] "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I honestly read it as both physical and psychological.

Birth, ageing and death are always described in the suttas as physical rather than mental processes. Buddhadasa argues that birth, ageing and death are intended metaphorically, but this seems like a bland assertion which he doesn't back up. I can see why a purely psychological interpretation of DO is attractive to sceptical westerners, but that in itself doesn't make a convincing case for this being correct.
Like rebirth I tend to put this question on the back burner and concentrate on being mindful of dependent arising in the present - working particularly with how craving and clinging arise in dependence on feeling.

 

[von bek]

Like rebirth I tend to put this question on the back burner and concentrate on being mindful of dependent arising in the present - working particularly with how craving and clinging arise in dependence on feeling.

On this, we are in complete agreement.

namaste