Pagan influence on Christianity

[Kenny]

False. it is by far a minority and it is an ambiguous interpretation to assert this is normal for Jewish belief. The belief in the resurrected incarnate God is completely against Jewish beliefs.

True... Sadducees didn't believe in angels or a resurrection and Pharisees did.

Incarnate God apparently was ok since Paul and the Book of John didn't have a problem with it.

It is not an obvious position as far as Jewish beliefs. They do not believe in the Fall nor Original Sin.

From: https://outreachjudaism.org/original-sin/
"Dear Rabbi Singer,

Does the Jewish faith have a teaching comparable to that of “original sin” in the Christian tradition? By this I mean the teaching that all human beings are born with an innate tendency to disobey God. In my particular Christian tradition, water baptism is required for the removal of this sin. Would you please comment.

Context here is about removal of "original sin" which I also have a problem with.

My view is in accordance with Gen 3 and not what church people did with it.

 

[shunyadragon]

True... Sadducees didn't believe in angels or a resurrection and Pharisees did.

Neither the Seducees nor the Pharisees remotely endorse the incarnation and Resurrection of God.

Incarnate God apparently was ok since Paul and the Book of John didn't have a problem with it.

Hellenist Paul and the Book of John do not remotely represent Judaism at the time nor now. Hellenists do not have a problem with incarnate Gods.

Context here is about removal of "original sin" which I also have a problem with.

My view is in accordance with Gen 3 and not what church people did with it.

Regardless of 'what the Church people did with it,' nor your view remotely agrees with the Jewish understanding of Genesis at the time of Jesus nor today. The concept of the 'Fall and Original Sin' is totally alien to Jewish beliefs, as referenced.

 

[Muslim-UK]

That wasn't the point, was it?

You asked for a prophetic scripture speaking of the one who was to come. It is OBVIOUS that it is a descendent of King David, ergo, Ishamael's (mghmohs) is out of consideration.

When have I ever claimed the King of the Jews would be a descendant of Ishmael pbuh? I asked you to provide a clear Prophecy related to Jesus pbuh and you found something that fit Cyrus the Great like a glove. The words, 'square peg, round hole' come to mind.

 

[Nakosis]

I believe you are fantasizing. There is no evidence to back up your notion.

Just the Bible. The article was based entirely from what is written in the Bible.

It's unfortunate that since my post, the article has been place behind a subscription wall.

 

[Muslim-UK]

I don't believe there is any evidence to support that. Abram came from Chaldea in Mesopotamia. Most likely He knew of God through information passed down from Noah who also lived in Mesopotamia.

I believe the fulfillment of that is Jesus who states it. Our house is not made with human hands or stones but is a living temple, the body of Christ, the Church.

There's evidence to show Moses pbuh was in Saudi Arabia, we know his Father in Law, Jethro was the high priest of Midian, (Saudi Arabia).

We know Moses pbuh fled Egypt with Pharaoh in pursuit with Hundreds of Thousands of people. Did he head towards Midean where he had lived with Jethro for 40 years?

On the cornerstone:

It sure sounds like a physical Temple with a special cornerstone:

Isaiah 28

28:16 So this is what the Sovereign Lord says:“See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who relies on it will never be stricken with panic. <<<<It's a physical sanctuary were people feel safe.

 

[Muslim-UK]

I believe He did not deny it when someone called him that and in fact affirmed it albeit indirectly. You have to realize you are making the null hypothesis, so you have to show reason why He would have to proclaim it.

Perhaps show me the relevant verse?

I believe every born again Christian accepts Him as King.

Bible says he was rejected as the King of the Jews. The Prophecy says a King would rule over them and make them prosperous. Jesus pbuh didn't do those things.

The prophecy of Israel being rescued will be fulfilled in the future when Israel faces the battle of Armageddon.

The Messiah was supposed to do everything in one sitting.

I believe that is mere speculation not supported by evidence.[/QUOTE]

It's a fact, Cyrus was accepted as their King, built the Temple and made the Israelites prosper.

"Cyrus the Great (ca.600 – 530 BCE) was a towering figure in the history of mankind. As the "father of the Iranian nation", he was the first world leader to be referred to as “The Great”. Cyrus founded the first world empire – and the second Iranian dynastic empire (the Achaemenids) – after defeating the Median dynasty and uniting the Medes with the other major Iranian tribe, the Persians."

Cyrus the Great; The Father and Liberator | CAIS©

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe I can understand the wish to differentiate but in essence they are the same. I think saying some indian tribes' beliefs are not sophisticated comes from bias.

I believe cultures might be influenced but that which comes from God does not bear the influence of culture although it might deal with it.

Native American and Native Africans are indeed simpler in their Theology, which is actually good, and lack the complexity of the involvement of a pantheon of human Gods as are believed in Canaanite, Ugarite, Greek and Roman Cultures. The ancient Native beliefs did include animism, but interpreting the animals as Gods is a stretch. Also these Native religions did not influence Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. If you wish to disagree with the word 'pagan' as I use it, ok I will simply describe them as polytheistic belief systems that corrupted Judaism, Christianity and Islam,

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Your stone walling and ignoring actual reference that support Greek influence based on the belief of Inherited guilt.

No, I'm not. You're referencing Greek people who were early church leaders, and assuming/asserting that their influences included Greek mythology and ancient Greek religion when there is none to be found.

 

[shunyadragon]

No, I'm not. You're referencing Greek people who were early church leaders, and assuming/asserting that their influences included Greek mythology and ancient Greek religion when there is none to be found.

Your avoiding the actual specific references I have provided that document that relationship. I also provided Greek sources and . . . I will provide more.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Your avoiding the actual specific references I have provided that document that relationship.

No, I've actually addressed them specifically, and demonstrated (here and here) how they are nothing alike.

 

[Kenny]

Neither the Seducees nor the Pharisees remotely endorse the incarnation and Resurrection of God.



Hellenist Paul and the Book of John do not remotely represent Judaism at the time nor now. Hellenists do not have a problem with incarnate Gods.



Regardless of 'what the Church people did with it,' nor your view remotely agrees with the Jewish understanding of Genesis at the time of Jesus nor today. The concept of the 'Fall and Original Sin' is totally alien to Jewish beliefs, as referenced.

I understand your POV...

i disagree, the book of John disagrees, The Pharisee Paul disagrees, the Jews of Paul's time apparently didn't have a problem either.

Preferably, I would trust the people closer to the actual happenings than today's interpretation.

 

[Magus]

Josephus compares the Pharisees with Platonism (belief that abstract stuff exists), such as Demons, Angels and Incarnation, the building blocks of Christianity and Islam, the main influence
is the philosophy of Plato, rather then using the generic term 'Pagan'.

 

[Kenny]

When have I ever claimed the King of the Jews would be a descendant of Ishmael pbuh? I asked you to provide a clear Prophecy related to Jesus pbuh and you found something that fit Cyrus the Great like a glove. The words, 'square peg, round hole' come to mind.

Hardly.

Unless you aren't a Muslim as your avatar suggests... my statement stands.

 

[Kenny]

Again it can not be Jerusalem because of 2 reasons,

1 - David's plan of building a temple for the Ark was stopped at the advice of God (2 Sam. 7:1-17; 1 Chron. 17:1-15; 28:2, 3).
2 - The Ark of the Covenant came to rest at God's House before Solomon took it to Jerusalem.

David left the Sons of Korah to look after God's House:

In Psalm 42:1 For the director of music. A maskil of the Sons of Korah. As the deer pants for streams of water, so my soul pants for you, my God.

The name ko'-ra-its. Qorchi, , beno Qorach Korahites; Sons of Korah in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. ; in the King James Version appears also as Korhite, Kohathite, Kore. Is the tribe that are being left in charge of this House of God by King David

We know this by reading Exodus 6: 24 The sons of Korah were Assir, Elkanah and Abiasaph. These were the Korahite clans.

And when we read, 1 Chronicles 6:31

31 These are the men David put in charge of the music in the house of the LORD after the ark came to rest there.

32 They ministered with music before the tabernacle, the tent of meeting, until Solomon built the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem. They performed their duties according to the regulations laid down for them

To recap, it is clear the Ark came to rest in the House of the Lord prior to it being moved to Jerusalem by Solomon. Meaning the House of God was not in Jerusalem. GOD said, this house would be open day and night for pilgrims. Again, where is it?

.

You forgot to continue reading as well as simply ignored the fact of what was written before and after in Ps 84

1 Chron 15: 29 As the ark of the covenant of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David dancing and celebrating, she despised him in her heart.

The City of David is Jerusalem... not Mecca.

 

[Magus]

There's evidence to show Moses pbuh was in Saudi Arabia, we know his Father in Law, Jethro was the high priest of Midian, (Saudi Arabia).

We know Moses pbuh fled Egypt with Pharaoh in pursuit with Hundreds of Thousands of people. Did he head towards Midean where he had lived with Jethro for 40 years?

On the cornerstone:

It sure sounds like a physical Temple with a special cornerstone:

Isaiah 28

28:16 So this is what the Sovereign Lord says:“See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who relies on it will never be stricken with panic. <<<<It's a physical sanctuary were people feel safe.

How do you know and what is this evidence that you speak off, there are no references to 'Midian' outside the Biblical text, I also don't believe they where Arabians, but looking
at the Hebrew, 'מִדְיָן', it is rather close to 'מָדַי' ( Maday) or 'מְדִינָה' (Medina) ( Not that City in Saudi Arabia), actually a Hebrew word meaning 'Province' .

Daniel 8:2
Was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province(Medina) of Elam.

Ezra 6:2
province(Medina) of the Medes

Dan 2:48
Daniel made 'ruler over the whole province(Medina) of Babylon
(that's how Daniel got his name).

Zion, is a mount associated with Ezra ( 2 Esdras 2:42) whom announced the Laws of Moses, that where announced on Mount Sinai , so Sinai is simply a mythical form of Zion
and the Exodus of Egypt parables the Babylonian Exile.

.Jethro, Priest of a 'Province' (Not named), 'Pharaoh' (Not named) of Egypt, so it's a common theme in these books.

another 'Jethro', was the son of Ezra (1 Chr 4:17)

 

[shunyadragon]

I understand your POV...

i disagree, the book of John disagrees, The Pharisee Paul disagrees, the Jews of Paul's time apparently didn't have a problem either.

Of course book of John and Paul agree, because they are Christian works, and not Jewish works.

The Jews of Paul's time definitely did have a problem with Paul, and soundly rejected Christianity.

Preferably, I would trust the people closer to the actual happenings than today's interpretation.

I prefer this too, but you have cited nothing to support your assertion the Jews in any time in history widely endorsed 'Original Sin and the Fall.'

 

[shunyadragon]

No, I've actually addressed them specifically, and demonstrated (here and here) how they are nothing alike.

They are only assertions on your part based on an agenda, and no they failed to address the references.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Whatever, shun. Your interpretation is the best and only interpretation, as per the MO of bahai.

 

[Muslim-UK]

You forgot to continue reading as well as simply ignored the fact of what was written before and after in Ps 84

Here's a timeline of Psalms, let me know what I'm missing:
Probable Timeline of When Each Psalm Was Written

1 Chron 15: 29 As the ark of the covenant of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David dancing and celebrating, she despised him in her heart.

The City of David is Jerusalem... not Mecca.

This happened when the Ark was moved from Kirjath-jearim to Jerusalem. After David pbuh returned to Jerusalem, having defeated his son, Absalom. I'm not sure how you link this to the points I made regarding Bekkah?

 

[shunyadragon]

Whatever, shun. Your interpretation is the best and only interpretation, as per the MO of bahai.

Actually no, it is independent of my belief as a Baha'i, I would reject the Christian belief of the Fall and Original Sin regardless. It is not a Jewish, Islamic nor a Baha'i belief.