Only 3 Completely Unholy Things

[The Kilted Heathen]

The only lingering question I have is a "what if". What if it becomes known that people at that specific location are dishonest with the customers?

The only one I could see that applying to is the "check in the back" scenario, which usually happens anyways because the Karen is intent on making as big of a fuss as possible, and usually calls a manager regardless. Not that they know The Back wasn't checked, they just view the workers as beneath them. And then usually the manager reiterates that we're out of stock and there are no more items anywhere, and if they're dead set on that item they can find another location. But that's usually an inevitable no-win situation.

Is fury completely unholy?

I would say that it's reckless and self-destructive, but would not consider it to be "unholy".

...And that's why something can be deemed completely unholy for humans, but OK for God...

I think that's more us (or people, rather) appealing to an authority figure, much in the same way people in America are cowed by the cops. It's okay if they fly down the highway at 100 mph, but if we do it, then it's wrong... Don't question the LORD, because the LORD can kill a slew of men, women and children who displeased him, and there's got to be a higher purpose but it's not for us to question that so duck your head and sing praises...

The action is still evil.

 

[Spiderman]

I honestly don't know the answer.

Not in the Hebrew bible.

I honestly don't know the answer, I'll see what I can find.

Show me where it says this please?

Yes, God is jealous.

For this, I think it needs to be in the Hebrew bible, not the Christian bible, and honestly, we don't know what God knows, so I don't think it's correct to judge whether the false words are constructive or destructive.

God cursed everyone, women tortured giving birth, everyone receives the death penalty for the sin of Adam and eve, descendants of ham become slaves for looking at their drunk father naked.

 

[dybmh]

God cursed everyone,

Eve isn't literally cursed. The serpent is cursed. The earth is cursed because of Adam. But technically, neither Adam nor eve are cursed.

everyone receives the death penalty for the sin of Adam and eve

Not everyone, and is death always a penalty? In the beginning people were commanded to multiply and fill the earth. Can you imagine what that would look like without death?

descendants of ham become slaves for looking at their dead father naked.

" ... drunk father naked." And technically, let's be clear, Ham looked and told, he didn't just look. And! Who did the cursing? It wasn't God, it was old man Noah with a hang-over. Also, were Ham slaves? A little later, the lineage of Ham is given, and he fathered Egypt which became a huge super-power. Yes they eventually were subjegated to God, but it seems like Noah's curse was a fail.

 

[101G]

Wrath is unique and completely unholy because it is an excessive retaliation.

Addressing the OP, Wrath is only Extreme Anger. it can be abated, Ephesians 4:26 "Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:" Ephesians 4:27 "Neither give place to the devil."

don't stay angry, and if angry, sin not.

Great Cloud = complete obstruction of vision

as for clouds - sometimes just UNKNOWN, depending on context.

Stormy wind

also, an UNKNOW, based on context.

101G

 

[Spiderman]

Eve isn't literally cursed. The serpent is cursed. The earth is cursed because of Adam. But technically, neither Adam nor eve are cursed.

Not everyone, and is death always a penalty? In the beginning people were commanded to multiply and fill the earth. Can you imagine what that would look like without death?

" ... drunk father naked." And technically, let's be clear, Ham looked and told, he didn't just look. And! Who did the cursing? It wasn't God, it was old man Noah with a hang-over. Also, were Ham slaves? A little later, the lineage of Ham is given, and he fathered Egypt which became a huge super-power. Yes they eventually were subjegated to God, but it seems like Noah's curse was a fail.

I typed drunk father, but spell check on my phone switches thinks up a lot.

giving birth was the leading cause of death in women for many centuries , thousands of years. Because of them having the same genitals as Eve, Eve listened to a serpent . Perfect justice demands this, because that is what a perfect judge will do if you have a vagina, because it means you are guilty of what Eve did to Adam.

Also, people have been enslaving descendants of Ham up until the invention of photography based off of that verse, and God has to help Noah make such a curse turn into something that actually is effective. God can prevent any voodoo from successfully hurting someone.

Noah was far more holy than over 99.9% of the world

 

[dybmh]

I typed drunk father, but spell check on my phone switches thinks up a lot.

No problem-o. Completely understood.

giving birth was the leading cause of death in women for many centuries , thousands of years. Because of them having the same genitals as Eve, Eve listened to a serpent . Perfect justice demands this, because that is what a perfect judge will do if you have a vagina, because it means you are guilty of what Eve did to Adam.

The consequences of Eve's actions in the garden did not include death in childbirth. It simply doesn't say that. Further, if it was part of the curse then the high rate of death during childbirth would still be ongoing, and it's not. I agree it's unfair that women were / are at risk of death during child birth for no fault of their own.

Also, people have been enslaving descendants of Ham up until the invention of photography based off of that verse,

And yet, if they continue reading they'll see that the curse was a fail. What does this mean? Taking verses out of context, ignoring the remaining story, can be used to do awful things. Yes?

God has to help Noah make such a curse turn into something that actually is effective

And it wasn't effective, right?

God can prevent any voodoo from successfully hurting someone.

Why God doesn't prevent a whole host of things is a very good question.

Noah was far more holy than over 99.9% of the world

"... far more holy than over 99.9% of the world at that time" Genesis 6:9

 

[dybmh]

If I had to pick something else I consider to be entirely destructive, it would be extreme greed. I don't mean the sort of greed that makes you want a nicer car or a bigger house. I mean the kind of greed that has no limits whatsoever and will trample anyone and anything that gets in the way. The kind of greed that makes somebody want to become a trillionaire no matter how much harm they need to cause in order to achieve it.

I've been thinking on this, and in my view it falls in the catagory of vain-glory. I see glory as a force that conquers, or takes. Vain-glory is taking for no purpose and will "trample anyone and anything that gets in the way". What "makes somebody want to become a trillionaire no matter how much harm they need to cause in order to achieve it?" That to me is a great example of vain-glory.

 

[dybmh]

Now I need a new candidate for the "Great Cloud"...

I've been chatting wth someone outside the tread on this, and we've been bouncing back and forth ideas for possible candidates for "The Great Cloud".

I'm wondering if it is "baseless hatred". This would include all forms of bigotry and even unjustified willful ignorance. These things cloud the perception, blinding a person.

Thoughts anyone? Are there any possible ways to use "Baseless Hatred" in a positive constructive manner?

 

[VoidCat]

Vain-glory... I don't know much about it cant think of any positives but I do like the way it sounds on the tongue.

 

[VoidCat]

Vain-glory... I don't know much about it cant think of any positives but I do like the way it sounds on the tongue.

To make sure i understand what vain glory is...

Would colonalism be an example?

 

[VoidCat]

I've been thinking on this, and in my view it falls in the catagory of vain-glory. I see glory as a force that conquers, or takes. Vain-glory is taking for no purpose and will "trample anyone and anything that gets in the way". What "makes somebody want to become a trillionaire no matter how much harm they need to cause in order to achieve it?" That to me is a great example of vain-glory.

Ok ok i see...makes sense...

 

[dybmh]

Vain-glory... I don't know much about it cant think of any positives but I do like the way it sounds on the tongue.

It does have a nice ring to it, doesn't it.

Kind of like chimichanga. Or is that just me?

 

[dybmh]

To make sure i understand what vain glory is...

Would colonalism be an example?

I was thinking that too. I vote no, because the purpose of colonialism is economic, or obtaining resources. If those resources are needed, or at least believed to be needed, I don't think it's vain-glory.

I'm more thinking of something like building an empire for the sole purpose of increasing the prestige of a ruler.

 

[VoidCat]

I was thinking that too. I vote no, because the purpose of colonialism is economic, or obtaining resources. If those resources are needed, or at least believed to be needed, I don't think it's vain-glory.

I'm more thinking of something like building an empire for the sole purpose of increasing the prestige of a ruler.

Ah i see

 

[Brickjectivity]

1) Do you agree that these 3 things are completely and in every possible situation unholy / destructive / without virtue?

2) Are there any other things which you deem to be completely without virtue?

1# Outside the context of a war: Wrath probably is. False words probably are, and vain-glory probably is. In a war all of these are part of winning. So if you have to go to war then that might be an exception. I'm not sure you could count it as virtue, but you could count it as a tactic. An analogy is blowing an oil rig that has caught fire. Sometimes oil rigs spew blazing fire into the air, and they cannot be extinguished without blowing them up with a bomb. In that case you stop the burning by using an explosion which destroys the rig but stops the burning.

Also, are they unholy for all people or only for very holy people? I get the impression that there are levels of holy in the Hebrew bible, perhaps even negative levels. A person cleanses themselves before they ascend an altar. They become more holy in order to do it. A very holy person would lose some holiness if they exercised wrath, but maybe a less holy person wouldn't. People use handles to wield swords so that we are not cut. We use oven mitts to pull hot loaves from the oven, so we are not burned. Then perhaps it is for less holy people to do the less holy things and for there to be a hierarchy of people, some being more holy and more specialized to live holy lives.

2#I have not thought enough about this to give a confident answer. Shyness? Shyness might be completely without virtue. I can only think of problems it either causes or perpetuates. Its cute sometimes, but I think its unhealthy. it is a complex thing and hard to put a pin into. Vain-glory is obvious. I think shyness has similar issues but is not as easily noticed. I'm also not certain that it is completely without virtue. Another thing is that unlike wrath, false words and vain-glory, it is not something which takes effort. It is something which requires virtue to overcome. It is a kind of inaction rather than an action.

Bonus question: You may have noticed I qualified my proposal saying that these are unholy for people. Arguably, God in the Hebrew bible does all 3 of these things. Is it possible that these three things ( and any others that are proposed ) are somehow holy for God, eventhough they are unholy for people? For this debate I will attempt to take the affirmative position on this, if anyone is interested in discussing it.

I will accept an anti position against you, but I will only do it for a few posts. I don't expect to win, so you had better not lose.

Wrath is not good even if its God. Lies are not good even if its God. Vain-glory is not good even if its God. I think you are wrong, and you are brown nosing a wrathful straw version of God!

Isn't God displeased with the violence of Noah's day? Then why would God be pleased by being violent? Did not God save Noah and his family and preserve the human species and also gave new guidelines to help preserve the species and to prevent further catastrophe? God destroys almost the entire world but stops short. That doesn't sound like wrath. That sounds to me like a plan.

When God speaks things happen. Things are created. Therefore how can God speak false words? They would simply become real, wouldn't they? Whats the difference between God making a tree by talking and God making something true by talking?

Your ideas about glory are incorrect. Glory is the ascendance and transformation of our reality into one that is more balanced and upright, continuous, sustainable, golden. Vain-glory is some sort of coined term you have come up with that makes salad of sense.

 

[dybmh]

1# Outside the context of a war: Wrath probably is. False words probably are, and vain-glory probably is. In a war all of these are part of winning. So if you have to go to war then that might be an exception. I'm not sure you could count it as virtue, but you could count it as a tactic. An analogy is blowing an oil rig that has caught fire. Sometimes oil rigs spew blazing fire into the air, and they cannot be extinguished without blowing them up with a bomb. In that case you stop the burning by using an explosion which destroys the rig but stops the burning.

Also, are they unholy for all people or only for very holy people? I get the impression that there are levels of holy in the Hebrew bible, perhaps even negative levels. A person cleanses themselves before they ascend an altar. They become more holy in order to do it. A very holy person would lose some holiness if they exercised wrath, but maybe a less holy person wouldn't. People use handles to wield swords so that we are not cut. We use oven mitts to pull hot loaves from the oven, so we are not burned. Then perhaps it is for less holy people to do the less holy things and for there to be a hierarchy of people, some being more holy and more specialized to live holy lives.

2#I have not thought enough about this to give a confident answer. Shyness? Shyness might be completely without virtue. I can only think of problems it either causes or perpetuates. Its cute sometimes, but I think its unhealthy. it is a complex thing and hard to put a pin into. Vain-glory is obvious. I think shyness has similar issues but is not as easily noticed. I'm also not certain that it is completely without virtue. Another thing is that unlike wrath, false words and vain-glory, it is not something which takes effort. It is something which requires virtue to overcome. It is a kind of inaction rather than an action.

I need to think about the war context. I hadn't considered it to be honest. Others have already convinced me that false words need to come off the list, I've proposed "Baseless Hatred" as a possible candidate for the "Great Cloud coming from the north". But I'll need to apply that in a war context as well. It could be, as you say the entire proposal fails once war is declared.

Shyness, it's interesting you brought that up. I need to consider it as well. Thank you,

I will accept an anti position against you, but I will only do it for a few posts. I don't expect to win, so you had better not lose.

Aye-carramba, you annihilated me. I concede, I concede.

Wrath is not good even if its God. Lies are not good even if its God. Vain-glory is not good even if its God. I think you are wrong, and you are brown nosing a wrathful straw version of God!

OK, a fair assessment.

Isn't God displeased with the violence of Noah's day? Then why would God be pleased by being violent? Did not God save Noah and his family and preserve the human species and also gave new guidelines to help preserve the species and to prevent further catastrophe? God destroys almost the entire world but stops short. That doesn't sound like wrath. That sounds to me like a plan.

We agree that God threatens wrath, yes?

When God speaks things happen. Things are created. Therefore how can God speak false words? They would simply become real, wouldn't they? Whats the difference between God making a tree by talking and God making something true by talking?

Yes, I was wondering if someone would call me on this. I think the parts of the story that people claim as God's false words are part of the story, but not literally God's spoken words.

Your ideas about glory are incorrect. Glory is the ascendance and transformation of our reality into one that is more balanced and upright, continuous, sustainable, golden. Vain-glory is some sort of coined term you have come up with that makes salad of sense.

Salad sense? That's insulting perfectly good food!

But seriously, what would you call: "conquest in the name of an emperor for no other purpose other than prestige"?

 

[Brickjectivity]

We agree that God threatens wrath, yes?

Threatens to start over, does so repeatedly but promises this will eventually not be necessary. If God were threatening extinction then why didn't the plagues wipe the Egyptians out completely? In your Deuteronomy 9:8 there is anger enough to destroy the wandering Israelites, but there isn't enough anger to kill Moses. If this is an example of wrath, then your definition of wrath is incorrect. It is another case like Noah. Its a threat to start over with a small group. Moses will be preserved along with perhaps wife and children. The various prophets seem to imitate this. When they make threats they always talk about someone being preserved afterward to continue for some reason.

Yes, I was wondering if someone would call me on this. I think the parts of the story that people claim as God's false words are part of the story, but not literally God's spoken words.

That is perhaps a little over my head, but I view glory as a transformation. Imagine a projector which makes images on screen. Now imagine a glory projector that makes things projected upon into other things. They shrink and stretch and recolor into another thing. There is a Hornsby song called "The Way It Is," and that song is talking about the stubbornness of people. Sometimes we cannot envision things becoming better, so they don't become better. Glory is the opposite of this. If God says "Israel is my son" but Israel is nothing like God's son, what God is doing is insisting that it becomes reality. In the moment you may not see it, but you may see the transformation in part. It is no different from saying let the earth bring forth plants. They don't just appear like a thunder clap. They come out of the ground.

Salad sense? That's insulting perfectly good food!

But seriously, what would you call: "conquest in the name of an emperor for no other purpose other than prestige"?

I don't quite understand. You could have a point, but I don't get it, yet. Would an emperor believe themselves to be starting a war for nothing other than their own prestige, or is that something that other people think about them?

 

[Erebus]

I've been thinking on this, and in my view it falls in the catagory of vain-glory. I see glory as a force that conquers, or takes. Vain-glory is taking for no purpose and will "trample anyone and anything that gets in the way". What "makes somebody want to become a trillionaire no matter how much harm they need to cause in order to achieve it?" That to me is a great example of vain-glory.

That makes sense. I honestly struggle to comprehend the mindset of those multi-billionaires who still want more wealth. It just seems entirely pointless to me and it appears that pointlessness is a major theme in your concept of unholiness here.