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One reason why Jesus has not yet returned.

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
thats funny, i thought Jesus returned when the gentile times ended. “Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are destined to occur?” ... until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” Luke 21:8-24

When we entered the last days, he took his position in heaven as the king of the kingdom and has been overseeing the work of the preaching ever since.

Its our view that Jesus is already here.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
When we entered the last days, he took his position in heaven as the king of the kingdom and has been overseeing the work of the preaching ever since.
If I understand JW rightly Jesus has already been overseeing events on this earth for almost 100 years.
According to scripture satan was to have been cast into the abyss at Christ's return. How is it we now see even more killings, more crime and more ungodliness than ever before ???
Your Jesus is not doing a very good job !!!:no:
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
You just said he was here. There is a second coming in the bible. It will be the same as the first coming, it is said.

well the bible doesnt actually say it will be the same... i know some christians say it will be the same but the bible certainly does not

Jesus told his apostles that the world would not see him again, but only they would see him...

John 14:19 A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but YOU will behold me, because I live and YOU will live. 20 In that day YOU will know that I am in union with my Father and YOU are in union with me and I am in union with YOU. 21 He that has my commandments and observes them,... and I will love him and will plainly show myself to him.”

We need to recognize the sign that Jesus gave to show when he had returned and it is by that sign that christians will 'see' Jesus. Not everyone is willing to recognize the sign and so they do not see.




 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
If I understand JW rightly Jesus has already been overseeing events on this earth for almost 100 years.
According to scripture satan was to have been cast into the abyss at Christ's return. How is it we now see even more killings, more crime and more ungodliness than ever before ???
Your Jesus is not doing a very good job !!!:no:


its actually to the contrary

When Jesus took power, his first act as king was to war with Satan in heaven. This war in heaven had consequences on earth as John saw in vision he explained the events. The kingdom would be established with Christ taking the throne, but he devil would stand to fight the newly enthroned Christ and then be cast out of heaven and given a short period of time before he is finally done away with.

Revelation 12:3 And another sign was seen in heaven, and, look! a great fiery-colored dragon... And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child.

5 And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne. ...7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha‧el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!
12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.



This is why Jesus sign mentions that people would not recognize the time when he arrived in kingdom power, they would go about their lives ignoring the evidence.
Matthew 24:7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. 9 “Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name...36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
 
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kylixguru

Well-Known Member
thats funny, i thought Jesus returned when the gentile times ended. “Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are destined to occur?” ... until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilledLuke 21:8-24

When we entered the last days, he took his position in heaven as the king of the kingdom and has been overseeing the work of the preaching ever since.

Its our view that Jesus is already here.
The fulness of the Gentiles does not come in until the judgment against Israel is expired. The 2,730 year judgment wasn't over until 2010. Therefore, this indicates your claim has no foundation.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
The fulness of the Gentiles does not come in until the judgment against Israel is expired. The 2,730 year judgment wasn't over until 2010. Therefore, this indicates your claim has no foundation.

what is the reasoning on basing the start of the 'gentile times' as 720bce?
 

kylixguru

Well-Known Member
what is the reasoning on basing the start of the 'gentile times' as 720bce?
721 BC (because there is no year zero) is when the northern kingdom was "judged" by way of the King of Assyria sacking Samaria and removing the people from off the land and scattering them. The fall of Israel and scattering them among the Gentiles is what enabled the Gentiles to become recipients of the "good news" of salvation. This is because it was actually Israelites scattered among them (the Lost sheep of Israel) that God was tending. But, when that judgment period is over, so too is the opportunity for the Gentiles over if they ultimately reject God's efforts with them. God shall then lop off the Gentile branches and "graff back in the natural branches" as Paul says in Romans 11.

As I understand it, it shall be the role of the latter-day Messiah from the House of Joseph, the stone and shepherd of Israel who is the Shiloh Messiah that gathers in all of the dispersed of Israel in the last days. (See Genesis 49) It shall be "a prophet like unto Moses" that shall gather in all the people and establish them again as a sovereign nation with God Himself in person in the flesh as their King. He cannot do this with success until all of the tribes of Israel have completed their judgment/punishment period and are eligible to be received into covenant again.

Thus, Jehovah's Witness cannot be a manifestation of the return of Christ that shall obtain the victory. I view them as a preparatory aid to help those people that resonate to the truths within their organization. Of which there are a good many. However, there are also numerous things that indicate plainly to me it is a man-made religion rather than a divinely revealed religion. It's a boat people will eventually need to disembark from if they want to be in Christ's Kingdom.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
721 BC (because there is no year zero) is when the northern kingdom was "judged" by way of the King of Assyria sacking Samaria and removing the people from off the land and scattering them.

Im a bit confused as to why you think it is the Northern kingdom which marked the timing of when the gentile times began. The northern kingdom had a king, but he wasnt located in Jerusalem...the seat of the Throne of David - which is representative of Gods kingdom.
The northern kingdom did not represent Gods rulership because they had turned apostate. It was only in Jerusalem that Gods throne was located and therefore it is only that part of the kingdom which is relevant.

Assyria destroyed the northern kingdom, but Jerusalem continued to have a king reigning on Gods throne right up until it was destroyed by Nebudcadnezza in 607bce.

The prophecy of Ezekiel stated that the king would be removed from Gods throne (which was in Jerusalem) and THAT would mark the beginning of the gentile rule.
Ezekiel 21:26 ‘Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. 27 A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no [one’s] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.’

Your welcome to apply it to the Northern kingdom, but i really cant see how it could be correct...especially considering the judean tribes were also scattered and spread about, some going into captivity in babylon and many more being dispersed into the surrounding nations.
 
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Beta

Well-Known Member
its actually to the contrary

When Jesus took power, his first act as king was to war with Satan in heaven. This war in heaven had consequences on earth as John saw in vision he explained the events. The kingdom would be established with Christ taking the throne, but he devil would stand to fight the newly enthroned Christ and then be cast out of heaven and given a short period of time before he is finally done away with.
Afraid we are too far apart in understanding of scripture . There is no war in heaven at the return of Christ for he had already conquered the devil at His first coming to earth. Satan was already the god of this world since Adam & Eve who had succumbed to him. Rev.20 says the dragon was cast into the bottomless pit and released for a short time after the 1000 year reign of Christ, not before. And the other scriptures you quoted happened before his second coming when the whole world is being deceived - which is now !
The real Jesus has not yet returned but is even at the door ! :bow:
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Afraid we are too far apart in understanding of scripture . There is no war in heaven at the return of Christ for he had already conquered the devil at His first coming to earth. Satan was already the god of this world since Adam & Eve who had succumbed to him. Rev.20 says the dragon was cast into the bottomless pit and released for a short time after the 1000 year reign of Christ, not before. And the other scriptures you quoted happened before his second coming when the whole world is being deceived - which is now !
The real Jesus has not yet returned but is even at the door ! :bow:

yes i see we are far apart on this one

would you be able to post the scriptures and how they apply?
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
yes i see we are far apart on this one

would you be able to post the scriptures and how they apply?

Yes I would but poor eye-sight is a strain and stress hence my short posts.
But since JW know the Bible inside out I do not consider this necessary - it's more a matter of putting scriptures in right order :) imho.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Yes I would but poor eye-sight is a strain and stress hence my short posts.
But since JW know the Bible inside out I do not consider this necessary - it's more a matter of putting scriptures in right order :) imho.

yeah well i agree with you on putting sciptures in the right order

I have to say that i think we've got it right about when Jesus took power the war in heaven broke out. If you look at surrounding context you see that the war broke out after the 'woman' produced the 'child' and he took the throne

Rev 12:4 '...And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child.
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne....7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha‧el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled


Now you seem to be saying that this was when Satan was abyssed, but other verses show that Satan was still active AND that he was hurled to 'earth'...not the abyss

Vs 13 Now when the dragon saw that it was hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman that gave birth to the male child.

You see in vs 13 that it specifically says the 'earth' and it also says that Satan proceeded to persecute the woman...this means that he was still active, whereas when he is put into the abyss, he will not be active until he is released at the end of the 1,000 yrs.
 

kylixguru

Well-Known Member
Im a bit confused as to why you think it is the Northern kingdom which marked the timing of when the gentile times began. The northern kingdom had a king, but he wasnt located in Jerusalem...the seat of the Throne of David - which is representative of Gods kingdom.
The northern kingdom did not represent Gods rulership because they had turned apostate. It was only in Jerusalem that Gods throne was located and therefore it is only that part of the kingdom which is relevant.
You are confused because Ezekiel didn't say that. Did you read the passages I quoted or not?

God divided the kingdom and put the two parts each under their own period of judgment. The period of time for the northern kingdom was explicitly distinct. Therefore, its beginning point would pertain to it's destruction.

Also, as regarding relevance, Aholibah (Judah) would also be given the cup of her sister Aholah (Samaria) at some point as well. That happened in 70AD.

Assyria destroyed the northern kingdom, but Jerusalem continued to have a king reigning on Gods throne right up until it was destroyed by Nebudcadnezza in 607bce.
That is beside the point as far as the northen kingdom's period of judgment is concerned. The period of judgment for the southern kingdom starts when it was destroyed, which as you mention was 587bce.

The prophecy of Ezekiel stated that the king would be removed from Gods throne (which was in Jerusalem) and THAT would mark the beginning of the gentile rule.
Ezekiel 21:26 ‘Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. 27 A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no [one’s] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.’
There isn't an explicit time I am concerned about with regard to when the Gentiles actually began to rule. The only reason they can come to rule is because Israel shall have been scattered among them. The point of the material I have presented is to show when the dispersed of Israel would be eligible to regain self-rule because their judgment is expired. This is bedrock. You cannot say the explicit judgment God gave to the northern kingdom didn't start until the southern kingdom was destroyed. That's a train off the tracks.

Also, your passage makes a reference to Shiloh, which can be understood as 'asher-lo' or "to whom it belongs". This is a reference to the birthright tribe of Joseph. When the northern kingdom is eligible to be out from under their judgment, that is the time when the Shiloh Messiah can come, which is the time the scepter departs from Judah and goes back to the birthright tribe. That individual shall be a descendent of Jesus, David and Jesse, which is to say he shall possess the Holy Grail. In this way God's promise to David is honored as well as the birthright being honored.

Your welcome to apply it to the Northern kingdom, but i really cant see how it could be correct ...especially considering the judean tribes were also scattered and spread about, some going into captivity in babylon and many more being dispersed into the surrounding nations.
Ezekiel was very clear. Each split of the kingdom had their own distinct period of dispersion with its own duration being prescribed. Both of the adulterous sisters were "stoned to death". And, the southern kingdom got it again in 70AD when her sister's cup was given over to her as the Lord said He would do. This is why Jesus was unable to manifest the kingdom in victory at that time. Aholibah had a brief period of eligibility as her shorter period of judgment had expired, but God knew she must receive her sister's cup so the karma (for lack of a better word) she gave herself assured she would be destroyed again. Once she rejected her Messiah from Judah, she was handed her sister's cup, which means she was lumped in with her sister to finish out her sister's cup with her.
 
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kylixguru

Well-Known Member
Afraid we are too far apart in understanding of scripture . There is no war in heaven at the return of Christ for he had already conquered the devil at His first coming to earth. Satan was already the god of this world since Adam & Eve who had succumbed to him. Rev.20 says the dragon was cast into the bottomless pit and released for a short time after the 1000 year reign of Christ, not before. And the other scriptures you quoted happened before his second coming when the whole world is being deceived - which is now !
The real Jesus has not yet returned but is even at the door ! :bow:
The war in heaven is when Michael stands up. This did not occur when Jesus came to the Jews. He clearly said the Kingdom would not come until the Father deemed it should come. He was pointing to the future Adam who would lay the foundation of the new Creation cycle ahead of him.

The war in heaven, which is repeating now, began when Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden. It was a battle between two opposing factions. On one side Michael fought for individual sovereignty under God's Law and the opposing side fought for their claim upon the people to rule over them with force.

To me it is a clear matter that the war began when Adam was given dominion and all creation was called upon to recognize his rule. Even the Quran makes this clear.

Unfortunately, we know that Adam transgressed and was killed. However, Adam (Man) was shortly redeemed and restored to His throne by his son Seth (Son of Man) avenging him and restoring him to health. All those who yet oppose Adam in his dominion remained subject to the adversary's claim and are subject to his kingdom. This is the division of the light from the dark and the two kingdoms as a result. Only the very faithful and elect have a part in Adam's Kingdom when he is redeemed and restored to his throne. All others remain under the adversary's kingdom to be ruled over by force (global socialism/communism).
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
You are confused because Ezekiel didn't say that. Did you read the passages I quoted or not?

before the overthrow of the southern kingdom of Judah, Ezekiel gave this prophecy to Zedekiah the king: “Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him.”

So according to this prophecy, the Messiah would be the next ruler on the Davidic throne.

Also, as regarding relevance, Aholibah (Judah) would also be given the cup of her sister Aholah (Samaria) at some point as well. That happened in 70AD.

That is beside the point as far as the northen kingdom's period of judgment is concerned. The period of judgment for the southern kingdom starts when it was destroyed, which as you mention was 587bce.

Judah was destroyed by the Babylonians in 607bce, shortly after Ezekiels prophecy as stated above...they were taken captive at that time by Nebuchadnezzar...they were later collected together again and restored to Jerusalem when it was rebuilt at the order of King Cyrus.
From Nebuchadnezzar's time onward, the Davidic line of kings had been stopped. Jerusalem never did have their own kingly rule, Zedekiah was the last king and the one that would be next would be the Messiah as Ezekiel said "it will become no one's until he comes who has the legal right and I must give it to him"

There isn't an explicit time I am concerned about with regard to when the Gentiles actually began to rule. The only reason they can come to rule is because Israel shall have been scattered among them.


You should be interested in when the gentiles began to rule because the books of Daniel and Revelation give us the exact length of time that the gentiles would rule....the end of those times would be the starting point of when the Messiah was given the throne.

 
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