1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured On the Nature and Mission of the Lord Jesus

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by 74x12, Sep 11, 2018.

  1. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,630
    Ratings:
    +1,299
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    How is He the Son of God and yet God?
    It's not as complicated as some people think it is. God is able to send His Spirit forth. As the Spirit moved upon the deep in Genesis 1. What happened with the incarnation is that God simply made Himself a body. (A body hast thou prepared for me Heb. 10:5) and then sent His holy Spirit to inhabit it in the womb. God is able to send His Spirit to any number of places at once.

    The body which was created by birth was Fathered by the holy Spirit in the womb. This makes this body the Son of God. (Luke 1:35) By the holy Spirit inhabiting this body in the womb and being born, the Spirit takes on the nature of the Son of God. There is an important reason for this. The reason God wanted to be His own Son is that once He sends the Spirit into us; proving that we are the children of God through that same Spirit. (gal. 4:6) If the Spirit had never been manifest in the flesh as the Son of God; then He would not give us the right to be the children of God. (John 1:12)

    Furthermore, in order for Him to save the children of Adam. He had to be born into Adam's bloodline. He must be one of us to save us. Whoever is born of Adam is born with a sinful heart. Adam and Eve were the original human sinners. Because the rule that God ordained in the beginning was that everything bears seed after it's own kind. And the sins are passed down through the father. (Ex. 20:5) As it says He visits the iniquities of the fathers to the third and fourth generation. So, Jesus needed a Father that had no sin. Or else His heart would not be pure. The “immaculate heart” as the Catholics say. There was only one who was worthy to be His Father. That is God who has no sin. (1 John 3:9) He absolutely had to be born the Son of God. He cannot be anything else and still be called the “spotless” Lamb of God; the atonement for sins. (Mark 10:18)

    Jesus came as the second Adam to remake us in His own image through rebirth. (1 Cor. 15:45-49) That is so that we can be made according to His good heart instead of Adam's sinful heart. Jesus Christ is who God was talking to in Genesis. “Let us make man in our image” (Gen. 1:26) God foreordained that Jesus would come to remake man in His own image from the beginning and before the foundation of the world as it says in first Peter 1:20. God was speaking to Himself through the ages in foreknowledge.
    Jesus is actually doubly the Son of God. First by being born of a virgin. (Luke 1:35) And secondly He is the Son of God again through the resurrection. (Col. 1:18) He was made first a corruptible body that He may die on our behalf, but when He was raised He was raised as an incorruptible body. (1 Cor. 15:45-49) Thus conquering death and being named the first begotten of the dead. (Rev. 1:5) The first fruits of the resurrection. (1 Cor. 15:20) Without His body no other bodies will be resurrected in the end. “Together with my dead will they rise.” (Isa. 26:19)

    Why do some scriptures seem as if He was always the Son?
    God was always also the Son of God by foreordaination and predestination. But there was a time when He actually became in the world what He was already in foreknowledge. As John 1:1 says the Word(the predestined Logos/Word/idea of the Son of God) was with God(in foreknowledge) and was God.(He is God. This means that God intended beforehand to be manifest in the flesh.) This is also what John 17:5 is talking about. Many people believe that John 17:5 proves that Jesus Christ existed separate from the Father but with the Father from before the world was. For those who take this position, they must consider this question. What is the glory He had with the Father before the world was? John 17:5 “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
    Many of them would probably say; that He was speaking of the ascension where He would again be with His Father in the glory He had before He came to earth. That sounds good, but is that what the Bible says? In Luke 24:26 Jesus connects the suffering on the cross with the glory He would enter into. So, it is apparent that Jesus enters into this glory by way of the cross. So, I believe that the glory mentioned in John 17:5 is the glory He would receive through His work on the cross. Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? How does He have it before the world was then? By predestination. In 1 Peter 1:19-20 it is made very clear that He was foreordained from before the foundation of the world to suffer these things for us. So, in John 17:5, He was just about to receive that glory that was waiting with the Father for Him from before the foundation of the world.

    1 Peter 1:19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
    Just as there was a time when He became the Son of God which He always was by foreknowledge, there was also time when He became the Anointed One(The Christ) that He always was by foreknowledge. This was when the holy Spirit descended upon Him at the baptism, as is written of in Acts 10:38.
    The day spring from on High in the flesh Luke 1:78
    Jesus was literally a fountain of measureless Spirit in the flesh. It was given to Him without measure. (John 3:34)

    Why did God become a man?
    He did so for our sakes. God had already known that He needed to save mankind. Therefore ahead of His own manifestation; He promised certain power to mankind. These powers were promised and preserved for the coming of the Anointed One who was ordained by God in order to fulfill all things. Nothing without Him is fulfilled. So, God promised these powers unto man knowing that He would come in the form of man and take these powers back to Himself. Why go through all the trouble? For our sakes. It is not as if God fears death, hell, satan, sin, the world, the flesh etc. All these enemies are the enemies of Adam not to be feared by God. So, God in infinite wisdom ordained that He, Himself would take our enemies to be His own enemies and defeat those enemies for our sakes. Thus, God needed to become the Son of man.

    Why does Jesus sit on the right hand of God; if He is God?
    In becoming a man He truly defeated all our enemies. Now, He sits where? On the right hand of God; still in form the Son of man so that in the form of the Son of man; all enemies will be subdued unto mankind through Him and put under His (human) feet. He would do so through the power that was promised unto Him in the prophecies of the scriptures. Ultimately It was a mission of reconciliation. He came to reconcile all things unto Himself. When His mission is complete, then and only then will the Son of man at the head of all His brethren(those born anew in His likeness) deliver the kingdom(restored and healed) up to the Father. Then the Father will be all and in all.

    Why do the epistles emphasize the Father and then the Son so much?
    It is my belief that they do this because the human manifestation of God (the Son of God) is so important. The human manifestation of God is literally our (humanities) Salvation. In fact the name Jesus in Hebrew means Salvation. Jesus called Himself the resurrection and the Life. It is through His passion; His death burial and resurrection that we have any hope. Not only us, but those who came before are also not saved without Him. Their “Salvation” (Yeshua) as well. As the Spirit of Jesus spoke by Isaiah saying “together with MY dead body will they arise”. We have no resurrection without the rising of the body of Christ who is the first-begotten from the dead forever.

    In the early days of the church there were false doctrines as there are now. The early church had to be very clear on the humanity of Jesus; not just the Divinity of Jesus. Now, we have to stress the divinity of Jesus more (while not ignoring His humanity either).
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,630
    Ratings:
    +1,299
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Power promised to humanity in order to save humanity. God came to take that power back to save us.
    This includes the powers of:

    • The power of the Word made flesh. This is the Word of God literally made human flesh.
    • The Anointed One. The Messiah. This is kind of an overarching power I suppose. But Jesus the Anointed One is strictly a human being. The human being chosen by God and anointed with the holy Spirit to perform all God’s will.
    • The Priest of the order of Melchizedek. This power is how Jesus is able to make intercession on our behalf and administrate a new Covenant for us. The old Covenant by the Levitical priesthood is super-seceded.
    • The Lamb of God. This power is obvious. This is how Jesus became the atonement for our sins. He died on our behalf. He bore our transgressions and was killed for them.
    • King of Israel. This restores the kingship of Israel, the cursed line of Coniah and unites the throne of heaven with the throne of earthly Israel. Restoring things to the way they were before Israel rejected God as king over them in the times before Samuel.
    • The Shepherd: The good Shepherd gives His life for the sheep. Jesus is God manifest who Psalm 23 is about and He is the good Shepherd. He came to die for the sheep.
    • Kinsman Redeemer. If Jesus did not come and die for us then there would be no marriage of the Lamb. Because the it’s by the washing of the blood of Jesus that the new Jerusalem is made and sanctified as the bride of God. Jesus death purchases His bride. He is the “kinsman redeemer”.
    • Son of God. This power is through the holy Spirit which because Jesus was born the Son of God. Therefore when we receive the holy Spirit we are empowered to become the children of God also.
    • Power of the Seed of a woman: This is the prophesied seed of a woman that would “bruise the serpents head”. This serpent Satan and Jesus is the Seed.
    • Resurrection power. Power over death. This power makes all things new. Because He died once and rose again whoever is born anew in Him receives newness of Life and everlasting life. Also the whole creation will be made new through this power. As God said Behold, I make all things new. Jesus is the cornerstone of the new creation of God. This power also includes salvation for the gentiles because even gentiles are made new in Jesus Christ.

    So in conclusion here are the obvious reasons that God Himself needed to become a human being. God became a man to accomplish all these things for us. Namely, to defeat our enemies:

    • Facing temptation without sinning from satan
    • Living a sinless life in the flesh which desires to sin
    • Facing death without sinning
    • Defeating death through the resurrection

    God didn’t need to face any of these foes. He did it for our sake. God first of all promised great power to mankind. In fact He promised all power to the Son of man. Why would He do it? Because He knew that He would come in the form of a man to take that power back. What was the point? To save humanity. We needed all power to be saved. This is why Jesus now sits on the right hand in glorified human form with all power. Because His work is not yet finished. He will rule into all He puts all mankind’s enemies under His human feet. This way we may be saved because humanity has prevailed against all it’s foes through Him. We could not do it for ourselves. Thus He is the Savior.

    This is why God was manifest in the flesh.
     
  3. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    2,453
    Ratings:
    +324
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    Does the Son of man Come from mankind, or did mankind come from the Son of man?
     
  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Seriously?

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    34,462
    Ratings:
    +12,143
    Religion:
    Inner child healing
    You can view it two ways.

    Incarnation is god because god because you cannot separate the two. (The mirror and reflection cannot be separated) Trinity

    or

    The incarnation, by definition, is not god but a mirror and seperate reflection of him (The reflection is not the mirror) Non-trinity

    Regardless, they are BOTH correct; the bible supports both views. Depends on how you want to form a relationship with god. Is he the mirror and reflection (as one) or is he a reflection of the mirror (as the son of god)?

    It does not matter. What is the point?
     
  5. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus άντρας των αστεριών

    Joined:
    May 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,728
    Ratings:
    +1,597
    Religion:
    Christianity
    Hello. Your first paragraph, if I am reading you correctly, suggests that you advocate modalism. That was condemed as heresy in the 4th century. You may be right and it has always made more sense to me than the Trinity; I am just making an observation.
     
  6. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,630
    Ratings:
    +1,299
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    It is a kind of modalism. But it really does make more sense than the trinity doctrine which has too many problems when it comes to the scriptures.

    Yes, those who believe like I do are still considered heretics by many trinitarian theologians. Although maybe not all of them view us this way. I don't know.

    Anyway we prefer the truth over the accolades of people. We certainly didn't decide to believe this way because it would make us more popular with other Christians! We believe this way because we are convinced that it is the truth.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,630
    Ratings:
    +1,299
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Both. As Jesus says He is both the root and the offspring of David. (Revelation 22:16)
     
  8. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,630
    Ratings:
    +1,299
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Both points of view cannot be correct. In practice those who claim Jesus is not God are ending up with two separate gods. A greater and a lesser God. Even if they deny that on paper. Yet in actuality; that's what they end up with. Because Jesus is so powerful He is (even if they don't call Him so) a God. So the question is do we have two or one God? So suffice to say; I can't support their point of view.

    However, I'm not judging them. I'm just trying to spread the truth. A more pure truth. So people can receive even more revelation. When people have a foundation of truth; then even more truth can be built on that.
     
  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Seriously?

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    34,462
    Ratings:
    +12,143
    Religion:
    Inner child healing
    Its not that complicated.

    When you are an incarnation, there is no sepearation from the source and the incarnation (hence the meaning of it). So when one worships the incarnation, they are worshiping the source. Thats the trinity.

    When the incarnation is separate, thats acknowledging even though the incarnation is related to the source, because they both have different natures (spirit or flesh) they are not each other. That is non-trinity.

    Butt the key is: You need both to have a relationship with god and both say you cannot go to god without going through the sun. THe nature of the incarnation (flesh ro flesh/spirit) has nothng to do with the actual reason and action to which the set wo (or one) tihng functions).

    Its just how you want to see god. Many people dont like separating jesus from god. That is fine because that is one way to view a relationship: they are one.

    Others decide that they focus on the relation-ship betwen two people rather than them being each other. So they see relationship as two people with one goal or message. Like a marriage. That is another way of seing it.

    But both are in the name of christ
    Both have christ as intermediary
    Both view christ as the son of god

    Its just how you personaly want to relate to christ.
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Seriously?

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    34,462
    Ratings:
    +12,143
    Religion:
    Inner child healing
    Think of the messenger and the person sending the message.

    Source: Person who sends the messanger
    Messanger: The person who gives the message from the source

    Some say

    1. The messenger is the source because whatever the messenger sin is from the source; they cant be separated. (they both are One)

    Others say

    2. The messanger is its own person and is separate from the source (flesh vs spirit). So the source becomes greater than the messenger (Source is greater than the messanger)

    However, the messanger is still important even though he is not the source who sent him.

    It isnt that complicated.

    Both are supported by scripture it just depends on how you want to see it.
     
  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,061
    Ratings:
    +2,715
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    @74x12
    There seems to be a lot of problems with this story, you have created.
    This sounds like something, only a human would come up with - a God talking to himself. [​IMG] Sounds like a lunatic that belongs in a mental asylum. [​IMG] What possible reason would the creator have for talking to himself? [​IMG]
    This seems quite foreign to what I read in scripture, and has the sound of mythology.
    Where in the Bible does it say, God talks to himself?

    The Bible is respected, and valued by many, despite it being labelled mythological.
    Understandably, some may think there are myths, because it involves supernatural events, and some things may seem strange, and indeed difficult to understand, but I think stories like this only make it more difficult for persons to accept.

    Although this can stumble many, and cause them to stray, and wander about lost, it doesn't prevent God from bringing his sheep back to the green pastures of truth. Jeremiah 23

    However, I think we ought to be very careful that we are not the ones causing stumbling to those seeking God's truth, by creating false stories. Matthew 18:6

    I think since you are quoting scriptures in an effort to support the story, then if the story is true, there should be no problem with other texts.
    So perhaps you can show me how the following are not problems for what you present here.

    Problem #1
    Apparently there was someone with God - someone God himself begat - brought forth directly, with no help from anyone.
    Proverbs 8:22-31
    22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth, When there were no springs overflowing with water. 25 Before the mountains were set in place, Before the hills, I was brought forth, 26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields Or the first clods of earth’s soil. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there; When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters, 28 When he established the clouds above, When he founded the fountains of the deep, 29 When he set a decree for the sea That its waters should not pass beyond his order, When he established the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; 31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men.

    Colossians 1:15-17
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist,

    Revelation 3:14
    “To the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:

    This evidently is the logos mentioned at John 1:1 - that left heaven to be born a human on earth. John 1:14; 3:16;

    Problem #2
    The scriptures do not allow for inserting symbolism anywhere it pleases us to do so.
    That the Genesis account is a literal account, is verified in the following texts.
    Genesis 2:4, 18-25; Psalms 104; Proverbs 8:22-31; Matthew 19:5

    Perhaps I will mention the other problems later.
     
  12. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,630
    Ratings:
    +1,299
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    You don't know how powerful it is though.

    When you're making cookies for example; you need the right ingredients. You don't put salt instead of sugar.

    Even small changes (if they are key) can make a huge difference in the final result.
     
  13. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,630
    Ratings:
    +1,299
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Who is God talking to in Genesis 2:18 and more importantly; who is He talking to in Genesis 1:26?
    A literary technique called personification. In the book of Proverbs Wisdom is portrayed as a female.
    Jesus used the same personification of wisdom when He said "... But wisdom is justified of her children." (Matthew 11:19) Jesus was clearly implying that Himself and John the baptist are the children of wisdom: whom He personifies as a female.

    We know that wisdom is clearly an attribute of God's own nature. God is the "only wise God" according to 1 Timothy 1:17, Romans 16:27, Jude 1:25.
    Surely you can explain "the problem" better than just posting a verse by itself. I think I know where you're going with this verse but I want you to clarify your exact "problem". Thanks.
    The amplified Bible "amplifies" the word "beginning" in Revelation 3:14 and shows both it's meanings. It doesn't just mean beginning but also means origin. So He certainly is the beginning/origin of God's creation.
    Of course it's literal. But you can't ignore the fact that there are deeper meanings in Genesis because Paul said it was allegory in Galatians 4:24. If part of Genesis is both literal(because Paul is speaking of a true story) and yet can be allegory at the same time; then any part of Genesis may be allegory. That's because it is holy scripture. Inspired by the holy Spirit. (2 Timothy 3:16) Of course He can make it both literal history and allegory at once.
    All scriptures are spiritual and deep. There is both the milk of the word and the strong meat of the word. But, I don't even really need to resort to the allegory contained in Genesis to prove my point. I just like it and find it interesting. It's the things God reveals.
     
  14. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,658
    Ratings:
    +1,697
    Jesus was giving the Abrahamic law, mystically, and literally, the mystic aspect interluding with the physical aspect.
    This is why, only faith can save. Because you have to be basically perfect, to transmute, into the Heavenly realm.
    In other words, we need help.

    It isn't a popular message, so they changed it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Seriously?

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    34,462
    Ratings:
    +12,143
    Religion:
    Inner child healing
    When youve cooked and been around people who cooked a lot and read their recipes, you kinda get an idea of the deeper meaning involved in their passion for cooking.

    Then you watch them food fight with cookies while at the same time, the cookies are delicious whether its the same cookie but the diet version or the diet version isnt the same as the main one yet they are both related. Depends on the persons tastebuds.

    But it really isnt that hard to understand regardless the disagreement. The relationship between father and son can be seen as an incarnation, father as son or not, as father and son.

    The salvation and nature of the salvation doesnt change given god can do anything and whomever he does it with does not need to be him in order for him to do his thing. Humans put limitations god not the other way around.

    I must have been sleepy that last post, I didnt edit at all ;)
     
  16. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,630
    Ratings:
    +1,299
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Interesting theory. There certainly seems to have been some of that going on. The religion of Babylon never really died out.
     
  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,061
    Ratings:
    +2,715
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    These scriptures do not tell us whom God is talking to, but they do indicate that God is talking to someone.
    Genesis 1:26 - "Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,..."
    (This harmonizes with the rest of the scriptures - John 1:1; Colossians 1:13-15; Revelation 3:14)
    Those aren't the verses you are using to claim that God talks to himself, are they?

    Wisdom is always in the feminine gender, in the Hebrew language.
    There is no question, I think you agree, that wisdom is being used figuratively, to represent someone.
    Brought forth before all other things.
    This could only apply to the firstborn son of God.

    The gender of the word, does not represent the gender of that "someone".
    The word love, is also used in the feminine gender here, at 1 John 4:8 - "God is love", but is is not used to apply gender to God.

    The point here is that we have reference from another scripture, supporting the fact that the son of God - the logos, was brought forth, and was with God, before all other creation.
    Again, this harmonizes with the rest of the scriptures - John 1:1; Colossians 1:13-15; Revelation 3:14

    Sorry, but the verse in Colossians went along with the one in Revelation, and John.
    What do you find to be a problem with the verses in Colossians?
    I explained your problem.
    The fact is, it is apparent there was someone with God - someone God himself begat - brought forth directly, with no help from anyone. That one was there before all other creation, and it was through him that all other things came.
    1 Corinthians 8:6 -
    yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

    Revelation 3:14 Interlinear: 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;
    HELPS Word-studies
    746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial(starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief(foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

    Could you please be more specific, or elaborate on what you are saying about Revelation 3:14?
    Are you saying that the faithful and true witness here is not the beginning of God's creation?

    Galatians 4:24
    Paul here is speaking of a real event that served as a pattern, or representation of something greater.
    Not that the event was not literal.
    This is the case with many other literal events and things mentioned in Genesis - like the animal sacrifices, the blood, the tabernacle, the ark of the covenant, the book of the law, Aaron's rod, and many other things - all literal, but used by God because they had a greater significance.
    You are not claiming that Moses and Israel were not a real persons are you? o_O

    However, the texts I provided supports the literal rendering of the creation account in Genesis 1 - a number of which you made no comment on. Genesis 2:4, 18-25; Psalms 104; Matthew 19:5
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. bitehoney

    bitehoney Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2018
    Messages:
    16
    Ratings:
    +3
    Religion:
    Undecided
    This is such a great forum - All of these questions have such a importance to many people around the world in all of the historical times since Yahoshua came to earth and fulfilled His ministry and died and rose from the dead.

    Also, these questions always lead to deeper and surrounding questions.

    I believe that the modern translations are greatly mistranslated and I believe that many " phrases " such as the phrase " Right Hand Of The Father " was incorrectly mistranslated and inserted and added to the texts - and that it should correctly read as the manuscripts say - which is -

    " RIGHT OF THE FATHER "

    I believe and could respectfully show or demonstrate that the word " HAND " was inserted by the trinitarian translators.

    This concept of the Son existing " At the right hand of the father " is contradicted by many other scriptures that say directly that Yahoshua will sit literally " IN " the very throne of The Father.

    If the translation is translated correctly - I believe that there is a contradiction.

    How can Christ be sitting " At the right hand of the father " yet He personally says that He will sit - " IN " His Father's throne - here in - Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    Yet Christ is sitting at the right hand of the Father.

    I also personally have studied and I believe that

    These following verses are mistranslated in our trinitarian translations.

    As the translators deleted and removed the word " IN " the right of the power of God, IN the right of God, in his own right, in the right of the Majesty and in the right of God.

    - Reading from the original Greek manuscripts, we see the word " IN " was removed from all of these following trinitarian verses.

    Rom 8:34 Christ in G1722 - - en - in the right of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
    Eph 1:20 Christ in G1722 - - en - in his own rightG1722 - en - en in in the heavenly place.
    Heb 12:2 Christ is set G1722 - - en - in the right of the throne of God.
    Heb 1:3 Christ is..... the express image of The Fathers confidence, .... sat down G1722 - - en - in the right of the Majesty G1722 - - en - in the high.
    Heb 8:1 Christ is set G1722 - - en - en in the right of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens.
    Heb 10:12 Jesus is forever sat down G1722 - - en - in the right of God.
    1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is G1722 - - en - in the right of God.

    . - Reading from the original Greek manuscripts we see this was the case.

    We know that - In the Trinitarian translation - it says correctly - that - Yahoshua is said to have ascended to heaven to sit " IN " the throne of God - in Rev_3:21.

    My questions is, how is Christ sitting in the throne of the Father - but yet also sitting at the right " hand " of the Father. ?

    Would not translating these other above verses correctly show that Christ is


    in the right of God,
    - in his own right in the heavenly place.

    in the right of the throne of God.
    in the right of the Majesty in the high.
    in the right of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens.
    in the right of God.

    As after his resurrection and ascension - He returns to the throne Of The Father - from where He came from - to sit in The Fathers throne ?

    If anyone has any answers I would appreciate hearing from You. This form is very inspirational.


     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    9,061
    Ratings:
    +2,715
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    The scriptures do speak of persons sitting on God's throne - often referred to as David's throne. Psalm 132:11; Isaiah 9:6, 7; Luke 1:32, 33; Jeremiah 33:17
    It is a throne said to last forever - 1 Chronicles 17:14
    I understand this to mean they represent God's rule on earth, over his people, so it is as though they rule with him, and for him.
    2 Chronicles 9:8
    Blessed be Jehovah thy God, who delighted in thee, to set thee on his throne, to be king for Jehovah thy God: because thy God loved Israel, to establish them for ever, therefore made he thee king over them, to do justice and righteousness.

    How do you view Psalm 110:1; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20; Hebrews 8:1; 12:2?

    Right hand can and does represent a favored position, and Jesus certainly has a favored position with God.
    That position could well be on a throne - (he does not rule at this time - Daniel 12:1), on God's right hand, awaiting the time for him to rule, on his own throne.
    Matthew 25:31-33
    31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
    Acts 2:30

    Jesus said that his anointed followers would sit on his throne - though they sit on thrones of their own. In this way, as above, they rule with Jesus, and in a way, for him.
    Revelation 3:21
    To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

    Matthew 19:28
    Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Luke 22:28-30
    28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    These thrones likely are arranged at the right and left of Jesus' throne, from what was asked of him by James and John, (Matthew 20:21) although this doesn't necessarily have to be so.
     
  20. bitehoney

    bitehoney Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2018
    Messages:
    16
    Ratings:
    +3
    Religion:
    Undecided
    Dear nPeace. Thank You for responding to me.

    I understand what You are saying - Can we both agree that - The scriptures do “ NOT ” literally speak anywhere - of “ PLURAL persons “ sitting on God's throne – ?
    Also, please notice - we cannot find anywhere in the Bible where “ God's throne – “ - called David’s throne.
    But rather David’s throne is called Gods throne. In a future prophecy of Yahoshua's return to sit on David's throne on earth.

    I do not see a reversed / reversal role and the opposite of what the Bible says, But rather, it concludes that David’s throne will be someday - called Gods throne here on earth.
    I see the verse that You referenced here, in Psalm 132:11 - :11 when - The LORD said that - ; Of the fruit of David’s body will I set upon “ thy “ throne. David.
    :12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
    Psa 132:13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
    14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.
    This is - Psa 132:1 - intended to be a - “ A Song of degrees. “ - “ LORD, remembers David. “

    I think we and Gods word clearly agree, that this verse is not referring or saying anything about the throne in heaven. { Or God’s throne in heaven. But that this is a physical earthly throne in Israel / Zion. - Zion is a literal hill in Jerusalem - and Zion .

    :13 For the LORD hath chosen “ this throne “ * FOR HIMSELF “ The Lord ” - The location of Zion; - he hath desired it for his habitation - This is the literal, physical City of David – that is located in Jerusalem ( 2 Samuel 5:7, 1 Chronicles 11:5; 1 Kings 8:1, 2 Chronicles 5:2 and Psa 65:1, Psa 14:7, Psa 48:2, Psa 48:11, Psa 53:6, Ki 19:31, Joh 12:15 - “ the literal, physical City of David “
    and we see that - many other verses, explain that “ Zion “ is a literal physical location.

    Example - 2Sa 5:7 Nevertheless David took the stronghold of Zion: the same is the city of David.

    Also “ r nPeace I agree - the other verses that You listed here in - - Isaiah 9:6, 7 and Luke 1:32, 33 and Jeremiah 33:17 and - 1 Chronicles 17:14.

    These verses that You listed - are clearly detailing and explaining a literal, physical earthly throne - located in the physical land of Israel.
    Luk 1:32 He - { Yahoshua } - shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
    Luk 1:33 { Yahoshua } shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; of his kingdom there shall be no end.
    Also here in - Jeremiah 33:17
    If You read- just four verses up - the location of where this throne is said to be in the earth, In Israel - here upon the earth.
    Please notice the context, background, environment and physical location that the - Jeremiah 33:17 verse is explaining.
    Starting at - verse 13 - In the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the vale, and in the cities of the south, … the land of Benjamin, the places about Jerusalem, …in the cities of Judah, shall the flocks pass again under the hands of him that telleth them, saith the LORD.
    :14 … I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
    Jer 33:15 …. I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
    :16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.
    :17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
    :18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
    And in verse :25 God makes a promise - saying - :25 Thus saith the LORD; If -{ IF }- my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
    :26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob …………………………


    I agree and the Bible confirms our faith - that these verses - represent God's rule on earth, over his people, that the Hebrew people are prophesied someday that they rule with him, and for him here on earth. - At first, I did not understand what You were saying - But then, when I fully read Your post, I begin to understand.

    However, in responding to Your question. About Rom 8:34 Christ….is risen again, who is even - G1722 - ε ̓ ν - en – in the right of God.
    The Greek word is not “ AT “
    I believe that we may possibly strongly disagree about the trinity doctrine where the translators literally changed the Bible and removed the word “ IN “ the right - of God in Rom 8:34 and also in the additional verses listed below.
    Rom 8:34 Christ in G1722 - ε ̓ ν - en – in the right of God.
    Eph 1:20 Christ in G1722 - ε ̓ ν - en - in his own right G1722 - ε ̓ ν - en - in the heavenly place.
    Heb 12:2 Christ is set G1722 - ε ̓ ν - en in the right of the throne of God.
    Heb 1:3 Christ is..... the express image of The Fathers confidence, .... sat down G1722 - ε ̓ ν - en - in the right of the Majesty G1722 - ε ̓ ν - en - in the high.

    Heb 8:1 Christ is set G1722 - ε ̓ ν - en – in the right of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens.
    Heb 10:12 Jesus is forever sat down G1722 - ε ̓ ν - en - in the right of God;
    This Greek word for = “ IN “ = G1722 - ε ̓ ν - en – in - is always in context and literal meaning - the word “ IN “
    The word G1722 - ε ̓ ν - en is used 4184 times in the New Testament manuscripts and it always is in the meaning and definition and context of what the Greek word “ IN “ literally means =
    G1722 - ε ̓ ν - en – in - means - the word “ IN “
    If we translate the Greek word “ IN “ ε ̓ ν - en – in - correctly - The Bible says that the Throne Of God mentioned in The Old Testament prophecy of “ Yahoshua “ and the Resurrected / Risen “ Yahoshua “ Here in Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit / Dwell “ “ AT - FROM or OF “ my right, until I make thine enemies thy footstool ?
    This is saying in confirmation - to the later resurrected / risen Yahoshua, here in Col 3:1.

    Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above - where Christ sitteth “ IN “ the right of God.
     
Loading...