Omnipotence vs Free Will

[eliehass]

Ok, so Christians state that God gives humans Free Will. Also, God is Omnipotent. Omnipotent means God knows "everything;" the past, the present, and the future. So, God knows exactly what choices a person will make, knows what sins they will partake in, and in a sense, the person's judgment is already decided before they are even born. A person's fate is sealed, because no matter how you argue it, God knows in his Omnipotence what will happen. People are created to be sent to hell and/or heaven, free will or not.

If this made sense to you, then how do you explain things? God cannot be Omnipotent and we still have Free Will. It is a contradiction. Either God is not all-knowing, or people really don't have a choice in what happens after they die. It is known before they even exist.

Imagine I have a time machine. If I watch you do something, then go back in time and watch you do it again, I know exactly what you will do the second time around. Does this interfere with your ability to choose what you will do? Not at all. You chose what you will do, but I already saw it because I manipulated Time.

Time is what it all comes down to. Time is a construct of God. It is something that we are bound by, but He is not. As such, to God, the past present and future all happen in the same one instant (that's not even a proper way to describe it because an instance doesn't even exist, but it's the best I can do). Everything you choose to do happens at the same moment, so while you had free will the entire time, God is not bound by Time and knows your actions before you do.

 

[Wandered Off]

Imagine I have a time machine. If I watch you do something, then go back in time and watch you do it again, I know exactly what you will do the second time around. Does this interfere with your ability to choose what you will do? Not at all. You chose what you will do, but I already saw it because I manipulated Time.

The future already exists in some form in your scenario. If that's the case, I am incapable of acting in any way other than what the existent future holds. This is not free will. It's not your knowledge that hosed free will, but rather the conditions necessary for you to gain that knowledge (the future "has occurred" from your perspective) render will moot.

 

[eliehass]

The future already exists in some form in your scenario. If that's the case, I am incapable of acting in any way other than what the existent future holds. This is not free will. It's not your knowledge that hosed free will, but rather the conditions necessary for you to gain that knowledge (the future "has occurred" from your perspective) render will moot.

but at the time that you originally made the choice it was entirely yours to make. The future doesn't already exist, it exists at the same time. Your action is a step in a series of actions that occur in sequence from you, but also at the same moment. Therefore you have free will the entire time, but Time is simply an instant, and an observer outside of Time, i.e. God, sees the entire series of events at once,, instead of in the sequence that it occurred in to you.

 

[Wandered Off]

The future doesn't already exist, it exists at the same time.

If the future exists in any form, from any perspective, free will left the building. If the choice existed before you, then you aren't the one who made it.

 

[idea]

Time is what it all comes down to. Time is a construct of God. It is something that we are bound by, but He is not. As such, to God, the past present and future all happen in the same one instant (that's not even a proper way to describe it because an instance doesn't even exist, but it's the best I can do). Everything you choose to do happens at the same moment, so while you had free will the entire time, God is not bound by Time and knows your actions before you do.

(Book of Mormon | Alma40:8)
8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.



We are who we are, we'll do what we'll do... we're here proving to ourselves who we are, we aren't proving anything to God.... God could say "if I put you down there, you would do xyz" and we would argue "no I wouldn't - that's not who I am" .... so we have to actually come down here on earth, and do what we do, to prove to ourselves who we are, and become classified as whatever we are... it's not just to judge someone based on intentions - ppl have to actually do things to be judged on what we do... so we're here, walking the walk, talking the talk, all the while God knowing what we will do / who we are... we're the ones who are learning...

 

[Daniel09]

But, say I was going to walk off a cliff, or rather, say you had a child who was about to walk off a cliff. You happened to have the express time-traveled knowledge that the kid will walk off the cliff and die. You could easily stop them since you know the future, but because you know it was "meant" to happen, you do nothing. This is basically what it sounds like you are saying about God. He just sits back and knows everyone's fate, doing nothing to stop anyone from eternal damnation by His will.

 

[idea]

If the future exists in any form, from any perspective, free will left the building. If the choice existed before you, then you aren't the one who made it.

nothing existed before us - we are as old as God.

it's true - only a self-existent eternal being without beginning has free will... if you have a beginning, everything can be traced back to how you were made - I am like this because this is how I was created to be - sort of a thing. Our free will is proof that we have no beginning.

laws of conservation of mass and energy - nothing has a beginning, nothing came from nothing. Everything is eternal, just changing form....

Our birth was not our beginning…
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

We existed before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Job 38: 4 Where wast thou…
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

We are sons and daughters of God –
Psa 82: 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

we were there – we shouted for joy.

Ecc 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

“return” means coming to a state that we have previously been to – not “come” as if it were our first experience, but “return”

the spirit which rises from our grave is the same spirit which existed before we were born.

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life’s Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!​

- William Wordsworth, “Ode: Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood,” in The Oxford Book of English Verse: 1250–1900, ed. Arthur Quiller-Couch (1939), 628.

 

[idea]

But, say I was going to walk off a cliff, or rather, say you had a child who was about to walk off a cliff. You happened to have the express time-traveled knowledge that the kid will walk off the cliff and die. You could easily stop them since you know the future, but because you know it was "meant" to happen, you do nothing. This is basically what it sounds like you are saying about God. He just sits back and knows everyone's fate, doing nothing to stop anyone from eternal damnation by His will.

He molds people to the extent that He can without taking away their agency. God will not take away our agency.

an example - why did God not save these women/children if He knew what would happen to them? This is why not:

(Book of Mormon | Alma14:9 - 11)
9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.
10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.
11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the cblood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

Through this horrific process the women and children proved who they were - not just a mere idea, not just "I would die for my faith" - but a reality - they could say "I died for my faith"... those who killed them proved who they were too - not just "you would kill innocent people if given the chance" - but "you actually killed innocent people - this is who you really are"... it has to be real, not just an idea, or no one knows who they really are.

 

[Daniel09]

But what I'm referring to is the banishment to Hell for all eternity.

 

[idea]

But what I'm referring to is the banishment to Hell for all eternity.

ppl banish themselves.

to love, to be selfless, to be caring - these are atributes you cannot force someone to have. Those whose character includes killing women and children, who refuse to change who they are, they will be sent to outder darkness - let me get a link -

outer darkness is the most humane thing for them, not fire/brimstone (that is symbolic - these are sad ppl we are talking about) outder darkness just means some spirits will not be given back a body - they will not be allowed to manipulate matter in any way, and will therefore not be able to harm anyone. they will eternally become nothing more than a spirit... seems just to me.

(Guide to the Scriptures | HHell.:Entry)
HELL. See also Damnation; Death, Spiritual; Devil; Sons of Perdition
Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101).
Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found "filthy still" (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46).


so on earth - or in the next life - after they see it all, know it all, and still choose to be evil - they will not be reunited with their bodies. Sad thing, the devils would prefer to have the body of a pig than no body at all... but it is the simplest thing to do... they can't hurt anyone if they don't have a body.

(New Testament | Matthew8:31 - 32)
31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

why devils are always possessing ppl - it's a sad thing to be without a body.

 

[Hawkins]

But, say I was going to walk off a cliff, or rather, say you had a child who was about to walk off a cliff. You happened to have the express time-traveled knowledge that the kid will walk off the cliff and die. You could easily stop them since you know the future, but because you know it was "meant" to happen, you do nothing. This is basically what it sounds like you are saying about God. He just sits back and knows everyone's fate, doing nothing to stop anyone from eternal damnation by His will.

Omniscience means He knows whenever He wishes. Omnipotence on the other hand means He can actually choose to ignore you. He can choose to totally ignore those who are in a permanent separation from God. And thus His comment, "Depart from me, I don't know you".

Moreover, your analogy assumes wrong. His children's names are in the Book of Life, God will make sure that they all will be saved. On the other hand, if you deny Him to be your farther, perhaps you are not His son buy someone else's. Simple as that.

 

[eliehass]

But, say I was going to walk off a cliff, or rather, say you had a child who was about to walk off a cliff. You happened to have the express time-traveled knowledge that the kid will walk off the cliff and die. You could easily stop them since you know the future, but because you know it was "meant" to happen, you do nothing. This is basically what it sounds like you are saying about God. He just sits back and knows everyone's fate, doing nothing to stop anyone from eternal damnation by His will.

Well I don't believe in eternal damnation, so there is that...

 

[eliehass]

But, say I was going to walk off a cliff, or rather, say you had a child who was about to walk off a cliff. You happened to have the express time-traveled knowledge that the kid will walk off the cliff and die. You could easily stop them since you know the future, but because you know it was "meant" to happen, you do nothing. This is basically what it sounds like you are saying about God. He just sits back and knows everyone's fate, doing nothing to stop anyone from eternal damnation by His will.

Even if you do believe in eternal damnation though, this isn't a problem. God is giving you free choice to do what you want. This means that you can choose actions that are harmful to you. God tells you whats harmful to you, tells you not to do it, and then leaves it up to. If you listen to him, great. If not, that was your choice. God gave you the tools to save yourself, and you chose not to accept them.

Again though, I do not believe in eternal damnation (Orthodox Judaism as a whole does not believe in it) so even if you do mess up you can either repent and be forgiven, or experience temporary anguish after death, which serves not as punishment for what you did, but as a way of cleansing you of the bad that you accumulated by making the wrong choices, and allowing you to better experience the good of heaven (which consists of deriving pleasure from a closeness to God).

 

[Daniel09]

I believe that proper "tools" are not given. There are many many religious books all stating to be the truth of the matter, and because a person chooses to believe one, he will ascend to heaven whilst the other innocents are hell-bound.

Also, I believe a lot of the morals you speak of are highly based upon the rules of the society a person lives in, not a rule of God.

 

[eliehass]

I believe that proper "tools" are not given. There are many many religious books all stating to be the truth of the matter, and because a person chooses to believe one, he will ascend to heaven whilst the other innocents are hell-bound.

Also, I believe a lot of the morals you speak of are highly based upon the rules of the society a person lives in, not a rule of God.

Again, you are making assumptions of some sort of permanent hell, which I do not believe in. Everyone goes to heaven. Period. It's simply a matter of how long it takes you to fully enjoy heaven. And if you believe in a religion that dictates specific morals, then that is what you must ascribe to. Otherwise, yes, it is society based.

 

[Daniel09]

Again, you are making assumptions of some sort of permanent hell, which I do not believe in. Everyone goes to heaven. Period. It's simply a matter of how long it takes you to fully enjoy heaven. And if you believe in a religion that dictates specific morals, then that is what you must ascribe to. Otherwise, yes, it is society based.

Apologies then. I am meaning towards many of the Christians I have met who do prescribe to an eternal hell.

 

[Thief]

It renders you incapable of acting otherwise. Is this free will?
If so, then you did not previously know with certainty. Maybe you had intent, but not actual knowledge with certainty.

Knowing with some certainty some aspect of the future does not take away your free will.

You did not understand? Apparently not.

Tomorrow...you get up....have something to eat....
do unto others as you would have them do unto you.....
and after your last breath...
the angels will do unto you as you did unto others.

But I suppose you try to blame God for the things you said, and whatever you did.

 

[Wandered Off]

But I suppose you try to blame God for the things you said, and whatever you did.

You suppose incorrectly.

 

[Thief]

You suppose incorrectly.

Proceed with your rebuttal.

 

[Wandered Off]

I have no reason to try to lay blame on entities I consider to be non-real projections.