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Old copies of the Qur'an

Zxzyx

Member
Why don’t we (the world) have in our possession, a massive number (say 100,000 copies) of the Qur’an today, which date to Muhammad’s lifetime?

I see the way the Qur’an is held in reverence today and can imagine that it has always been that way since the beginning of Islam. Surely then the first Muslims would have copied it and distributed it to bring the truth to all peoples.

By the end of Muhammad’s life there was no threat from invaders who might have put a stop to this. Muhammad would have been told by Allah that his death was near and the Qur’an needed to be compiled in a complete book to avoid any bits being left our or extra bits added and sent to all the people so they might be rightly guided. We know they knew the importance of written copies since when Muhammad recited others wrote it all down.

I’m wondering where these early copies are today since the earliest I can find dates to at least 150 years after Muhammad’s death.
 

john313

warrior-poet
the same reason we don't have a massive number of any book that is 1400 years old i suppose. books were not as easy to copy back then and things tend to disappear or get destroyed with time.
Many people memorized the book, as they still do today.
 

anders

Well-Known Member
john313 said:
the same reason we don't have a massive number of any book that is 1400 years old i suppose. books were not as easy to copy back then and things tend to disappear or get destroyed with time.
Many people memorized the book, as they still do today.
Not only that; in some cultural settings, the holy words were supposed to be more truly propagated by tradition from master to disciple than through the workings of not always very well trained scribes. Ancient India for example developed a science of linguistics, unsurpassed for thousands of years, to ensure the handing (sorry, mouthing) down of the Vedas in an unadulterated way.

And don't forget that in many climates, the material on which the early manuscripts of any religion was written (except Babylonian and other clay tablets) was very perishable. But in some parts of the world, there is still a possibility of finding extremely old manuscripts, like in the deserts of China, where rather recently some marvellous finds of ancient inscribed bamboo strips have been discovered.
 

Zxzyx

Member
Thank you for replying

Here is the problem I have with all this.

There are over 5,300 known ancient Greek manuscript copies (MSS) and fragments of the New Testament in Greek that have survived until today.

Counting an additional 10,000 Latin Vulgate and over 9,300 other early manuscript versions, this totals over 24,000 surviving manuscripts of the New Testament.

Compare this with other ancient historical writings:

Homer's Iliad – 643

Sophocles – 193

Caesar’s Gallic Wars – 10 Greek manuscripts

Annals of Tacitus – less than 20

Plato – 7



The early Christians were severely persecuted and had any Bibles found on them destroyed. The writing material of choice around this time was papyrus, which disintegrated in time and had to be continually copied just to maintain one copy.



The Qur’an

Islam did not suffer persecution like the early Christians did in its early days but rather conquered much of Arabia.

Paper had been invented in the time between Jesus and Muhammad, which is far superior to papyrus.

It is well recorded that when Muhammad recited his revelations there were always people writing them down on whatever they had to hand.

Muslims hold the Qur’an in very high esteem today and I can only assume that they always have so any old Qur’ans would have been very well preserved.

The third Caliph Uthman thought it very important to compile a written Qur’an.



Considering all this why were the persecuted Christians 600 years before Muhammad able to preserve the Bible written on perishable papyrus so well that we have so many fragments today and the Muslims not. We do not have one copy of the Qur’an today that dates with in 150 years of Muhammad’s death to my knowledge. Even the old ones that we have are very few and far between. Why if it is held in such high esteem?

There is talk of one found in Yemen that predates all Qur’ans we currently have but that has a large number of differences to the one currently accepted today. I have had a lot of trouble finding anything out about this discovery because the people doing the work on it are not allowed to publish their findings for whatever reason.
 

Zxzyx

Member
anders said:
the holy words were supposed to be more truly propagated by tradition from master to disciple than through the workings of not always very well trained scribes.
Why would these people use 'masters' to pass on the Qur'an orally and poorly trained scribes to copy it in written form? Surely if it is the perfect word of God and every last word is of the utmost importance then only the best scribes would be employed for the task. You would also think that a centre would be set up just for making copies considering it's importance!
 

john313

warrior-poet
Zxzyx said:
Why would these people use 'masters' to pass on the Qur'an orally and poorly trained scribes to copy it in written form? Surely if it is the perfect word of God and every last word is of the utmost importance then only the best scribes would be employed for the task. You would also think that a centre would be set up just for making copies considering it's importance!
if i am being taught orally, i can see my instructor, i know who is teaching me. if i have a written copy i do not know who did it. as far as i know it could have been a minion of satan sitting in a dark room in an underground labrynth making false copies. of course he would be wearing sunglasses too.
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Zxzyx said:
Thank you for replying

Here is the problem I have with all this.

There are over 5,300 known ancient Greek manuscript copies (MSS) and fragments of the New Testament in Greek that have survived until today.

Counting an additional 10,000 Latin Vulgate and over 9,300 other early manuscript versions, this totals over 24,000 surviving manuscripts of the New Testament.

Compare this with other ancient historical writings:

Homer's Iliad – 643

Sophocles – 193

Caesar’s Gallic Wars – 10 Greek manuscripts

Annals of Tacitus – less than 20

Plato – 7



The early Christians were severely persecuted and had any Bibles found on them destroyed. The writing material of choice around this time was papyrus, which disintegrated in time and had to be continually copied just to maintain one copy.



The Qur’an

Islam did not suffer persecution like the early Christians did in its early days but rather conquered much of Arabia.

Paper had been invented in the time between Jesus and Muhammad, which is far superior to papyrus.

It is well recorded that when Muhammad recited his revelations there were always people writing them down on whatever they had to hand.

Muslims hold the Qur’an in very high esteem today and I can only assume that they always have so any old Qur’ans would have been very well preserved.

The third Caliph Uthman thought it very important to compile a written Qur’an.



Considering all this why were the persecuted Christians 600 years before Muhammad able to preserve the Bible written on perishable papyrus so well that we have so many fragments today and the Muslims not. We do not have one copy of the Qur’an today that dates with in 150 years of Muhammad’s death to my knowledge. Even the old ones that we have are very few and far between. Why if it is held in such high esteem?

There is talk of one found in Yemen that predates all Qur’ans we currently have but that has a large number of differences to the one currently accepted today. I have had a lot of trouble finding anything out about this discovery because the people doing the work on it are not allowed to publish their findings for whatever reason.
The Christian Gospels were well preserved because after 400AD, when Constantine was converted, Christianity was no longer being suppressed, or Christians persecuted:jiggy: . There may be rival between different Christians groups, and hence each will attempt to keep and maintain their version of the bible, resulting in more copies left to present days.

Why the one discovered in Yemen was kept in secret? The same as in Christianity, when Nag Hammadi was first discovered.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html#IV

Look at how many bibles the Christians started off with:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
and it is not surprising that they have so many copies left to present days.

On the other hand, the Koran started with only one version, with some slight difference in the interpretation into two groups (I may be wrong, my knowledge in Muslim religion is a bit rusty), and mostly is spread around the desert region and may also be dependent more on oral tradition like in the Christian case, and hence not many copies were left.

Remember it was the Gnostic that started to give "printed" version of bible, which started the blooming of different gospel
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentinj/Christianity/Gospel-Timeline.html

Anyway
over 5,300 known ancient Greek manuscript copies (MSS)
what years are these 5,300 copies of Greek manuscript? How ancient?
and fragments of the New Testament in Greek that have survived until today.
what years are these fragments?
10,000 Latin Vulgate and over 9,300 other early manuscript versions, this totals over 24,000 surviving manuscripts
and all these big numbers of copies of bible, which years are they?
Just curious to know.
 

Zxzyx

Member
400 years is still a long time to undergo persecution and just because Constantine converted does not mean that the world stopped persecuting. I read that more Christians were killed for their faith in the 20th Century than the previous 19 all put together, so it goes on. I personally believe that different denominations of the church are a good thing because they all keep each other in order and they unite against a corrupt sect. The fundamentals are the same through out but the details are practiced in different ways.
Ill read up on that NT Cannon link but it was long so bare with me. The term infidels is often used in a derogatory way towards people so I’m not sure what to think of a site called ‘infidels.org’.
‘it is not surprising that they have so many copies left to present days’ The 24,000 I mentioned are not a collection of bits of all these but bits of the cannon we accept today. I recommend...
http://www.debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/contents.htm
for further information on dating and authenticating.
‘Besides the 24,000 manuscripts we have more than 15,000 existing copies of the various versions written in the Latin and Syriac (Christian Aramaic), some of which were written as early as 150 A.D., such as the Syriac Pe****ta (150-250 A.D.) (McDowell 1972:49; 1990:47).’
‘But possibly the greatest attestation for the authority of our New Testament are the masses of quotations taken from its pages by the early church fathers. Dean Burgon in his research found in all 86,489 quotes from the early church fathers (McDowell 1990:47-48; 1991:52). In fact, there are 32,000 quotations from the New Testament found in writings from before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D. (Mcdowell Evidence, 1972:52). J. Harold Greenlee points out that the quotations of the scripture in the works of the early church writers are so extensive that the New Testament could virtually be reconstructed from them without the use of New Testament manuscripts.’
The above two quotes are from the above link. Once again I am no authority on exact dates and am simply regurgitating the work of other together with my understanding but if Christianity was what we believe it to be then this is the sort of thing we should expect to find from history. I am not finding anything similar with the Qur’an.
Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Sahih Bukhari, vol 6, no 510, pp 478-80
The above says to me that early Islam did hold an importance to the written Qur’an and that the state of the Qur’an was in a mess very early on. If there were only a problem with translation then the texts themselves would not have been destroyed.
I don’t know much about Gnostics but why are they not more well known now. If they had a head start on the written book then should we not expect there to be more Gnostic writing than the Bible?
 

Zxzyx

Member
john313 said:
if i am being taught orally, i can see my instructor, i know who is teaching me. if i have a written copy i do not know who did it. as far as i know it could have been a minion of satan sitting in a dark room in an underground labrynth making false copies. of course he would be wearing sunglasses too.
I don’t understand how being able to see a man means what he says is 100% correct or even 50% correct. Unless you believe that he is perfect you must accept he is susceptible to error now and again. How then do you know for sure everything he says every time is 100% correct (because anything less is completely wrong)? How can you authenticate what you heard and is rattling around in your head. There is the possible chance that you mix things up in your head and although you heard it right you too are prone to error.

On the other hand if a sunglass wearing minion of Satan gave you a dodgy copy of the Qur’an you would be able to detect the corruption very easily by showing it to anyone and any number of people you trust and by reading it whilst someone is reciting it verbally and by comparing it with other written copies that are accepted as corruption free.
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Zxzyx said:
Ill read up on that NT Cannon link but it was long so bare with me. The term infidels is often used in a derogatory way towards people so I’m not sure what to think of a site called ‘infidels.org’.
Infidels is a beautiful sound to atheist, and may sound derogatory to some religious people:D

Learn all about infidels in these web pages:
http://www.infidels.org/index.html
http://www.atheists.org/
http://www.ethicalatheist.com/index.html
http://www.positiveatheism.org/

I still do not get how those number you got for the Greek gospel etc.
 

Zxzyx

Member
I still do not get how those number you got for the Greek gospel etc.[/QUOTE said:
Sorry it has taken so long.
That information was taken from Josh McDowell's 'Evidence That demands a Verdict', vol.1, 1972 pgs.40-48; and Time, January 23, 1995, pg.57.
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Zxzyx said:
I still do not get how those number you got for the Greek gospel etc.[/QUOTE said:
Sorry it has taken so long.
That information was taken from Josh McDowell's 'Evidence That demands a Verdict', vol.1, 1972 pgs.40-48; and Time, January 23, 1995, pg.57.
I do not think Josh McDowell is very accurate or correct after reading many rebutals regarding his work:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/chap5.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gordon_stein/jesus.shtml
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gordon_stein/charade.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/index-apologetics.html

And of course, Josh McDowell ministry will never provide information counter to what he preaches:
http://www.josh.org/


<H3>THE BIBLE: Unique in Its Circulation, Translation, and Survival
In these three sections, McDowell seems to be arguing that numbers are somehow sufficient to establish truth. His claim is that the Bible has been circulated more, translated into more languages, and survived more attacks and criticisms longer than any other book; therefore, the Bible must be the word of God. Any beginning student of logic knows that truth is never decided by the number of those who adhere to a premise or claim, so there is nothing in any of these points that even comes close to establishing the truth of the Bible. Most of what McDowell said in these sections can be explained by the personal zeal and fanaticism of those who have believed the Bible through the centuries. Because of their commitment, these believers circulated the Bible, translated it, and protected it more than is usual for books. No one denies that zealous commitment has long been characteristic of Bible believers, but much more than this is required to establish the truth of any philosophical belief.

Being a Christian, McDowell would believe that although Judaism was originally instituted by Yahweh, it is no longer his true religion, but it has been the dedication of believers in this religion that has enabled it to survive through centuries of persecutions and tribulations that have far exceeded anything that Christians have had to endure. Furthermore, the circulation and survival of almost two thirds of the books in the Bible have been the result of dedicated adherents of Judaism, but McDowell would certainly not see this as any indication that Judaism is the religion that God now wants people to practice.

Much of what McDowell sees as biblical "uniqueness" is actually the result of political and social chance and circumstance. Christianity happened to take root and thrive in a geographical area that became more technologically advanced than other parts of the world, and it also enjoyed favored status from governmental institutions that suppressed opposition to it. In such circumstances, it is no wonder that the adherents of this religion would take advantage of the favored status to propagate their religion as extensively as possible. The growth and prosperity of any institution will always be the result of many factors, so it is naively simplistic of Christians to believe that their religion has thrived only because it is the "true" religion.

As for the Bible's survival of more criticisms and attacks than any other book, McDowell surely knows that public criticism of the Bible has only recently become possible where Christianity has for centuries been the dominant religion. Until the evolution of democratic ideas within the past two centuries--and even more recently than that in some places--public criticism of the Bible was punishable by imprisonment and, in some instances, even death. As recently as the 19th century, the Reverend Robert Taylor, a clergyman who became a critic of the Bible, was imprisoned in England for blasphemy as a result of publishing materials deemed offensive to Christianity. In such an environment, criticism of the Bible could not have been as widespread as McDowell apparently wants his readers to believe. Now that freedom of expression is granted by most democratic societies where Christianity is the dominant religion, there is no wonder that the Bible has become the target of widespread critical analysis. There is much in it that needs to be criticized.

While western societies have moved in a direction that permits freedom to criticize religion, this has not been so in other societies in which Christianity is just another minority religion. A critic of the Qur'an in an Islamic society takes a great risk and understands that he could be imprisoned or even executed for blasphemy. In such an environment attacks on the Qur'an will be very limited. If, however, freedom of religious expression should be adopted in Islamic societies, does McDowell doubt for a moment that Qur'anic criticisms will increase substantially?

As for the survival of the Bible, it isn't nearly as old as some holy books. Sections of the Zoroastrian Avesta are older than even the oldest parts of the Old Testament and so are many of the Hindu Vedas. To argue that the length of time a religion has survived is somehow an indicator of its truth, would make many religions "true religions." The history of religion is that they arise out of political and social circumstances of the times, thrive, decline, and die. There is no reason to believe that the same will not happen to Christianity and other ancient religions that have survived for centuries. Information is religion's greatest enemy, and in an age when information is just a few keyboard strokes away from anyone with a computer, this is going to pose a greater threat to Christianity than anything it has yet "survived."
</H3>
 
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