Offended by Outkast's Performance At Grammy's?

[kreeden]

A sad fact is that now that being Native American is not only okay but a point of pride then we have those who will claim it when they are barely Native American.

Interesting point . I don't know about the U.S. , but here in Canada it often appears that those who are so pround to be " Indian " are often those who can pass as " white ". First Nation People tend just to be proud of their heritage , as they usually don't have to tell people that they are " Indian ".

The term " half-breed " is quite offensive here . And our constitution recognizes a whole culture of " mixed blood " people , the Metis . But perhaps that is why the term is considered offensive here ?

I am not First Nation , although I have quite a few friends that are . And I have a story to share about offensive terms , in relation to a few of those friends . Before I do share this story though , I would like to appolizes for offending those that I am about to , for I am quite sure that the terms used will offend some ...

When I first came to B.C. . some 27 years ago , I met some people who would turn out to be very good and long term friends . The lady's name is Kathy , and she is Chilcoten . Anyway , they invited me to the lake one weekend , and at night fish were splashing ago the shore , but I couldn't tell what kind of fish they were . Being me , I had to find out . So I got a rod and decided to catch one . Now Kathy and her sisters thought I was being quite .. well , I'm not sure what they figured I was being , but they decided to tease me a bit . They told me that the fish were only " squawfish ". { a common name for a type of western carp } . I told them that we didn't have " squawfish " in the east and had no idea what they were ... well it just went from there . The girls were having a great time , laughing and giggling about it , but it all went over my head . { turned out that the fish were spawning suckers }. Anyway , the point of this story is that today , 27 years later , Kathy no longer laughs about that term . It is very offensive , although the fish are still called that name .

As for some hip-hop performers in buckskins , I think that there are worst things that we could be taking a look at .... but that is just my opinion .

Oh , and Draka , I don't mean for this all to be directed at your post . I think that you made some very good points there .

 

[Lintu]

I'm Native American (Apache). I would like to pretend I'd shrug it off, but I think I'd be offended. After all that happened to my family, I don't like seeing Native American culture mocked. There's hardly any left to mock anymore, anyways.

 

[kreeden]

I don't like seeing Native American culture mocked. There's hardly any left to mock anymore, anyways.

I had my say , and should leave it at that . But what you say there Lintu is the sad truth . And it is an aweful lost . Not only for your People , but for ALL People . Even for those too stupid to realize it .

 

[painted wolf]

I have to say more than 4 million people of Native American blood (just counting full blood) is better than 'hardly any'. :jam:

As a 'mixed blood' myself I will add that many 'full bloods' that I have met feel that it is what in your heart that makes you 'indian' just as much as any 'blood quota' that a government imposes.

I still find it odd that native americans are the only ethnic group that needs to meet government standards to be called a 'member'. Like ethnicity is a club :bonk:
But anyway that is an issue for perhaps another thread.

The cultures hang on, the trick is getting the some to realize that just shrugging your sholders is the reason it may die off. Apathy is what makes cultures die, pride keeps them alive. :tsk:

wa:do

 

[kreeden]

I think that he means any culture PW . Pure culture at lest . That is what I meant . I mean no offense saying that . Hey , life is change . And any oral tradition tends to be very flexible . But I'm sure that you know what I mean .

As for the " cards ", it is a political thing . Here in Canada , one can get a " card " saying that they are Metis . And as I said , the Metis are considered an aborigional people by the Canadian Constitution . However , they do not have the same rights as an " Indian " or Inuit . In fact , we are still trying to figure out just who has what rights . Politics .

 

[painted wolf]

no offence taken

First off though there is no such thing as 'pure' culture, humans will influence and be influenced by others... its out nature. Just as life is change so is 'culture'.
However traditions are only kept alive by active participation on the part of the culture. If you find it sad or tradgic that traditions are being lost, then DO something to stop it. It isn't hard

Sadly race has been and probably will always be a political tool.
I just find it sad and frustrating that while I am 'pedegree' enough to be 'genuine' native american my grandchildren will not be, no matter where thier heart lies. No matter what culturally they believe and what traditions they uphold they will not in the eyes of the government be 'native americans'.

Anyway, to bring this back on topic
I think one of the reasons people feel it is ok to sterotype natives is that there is the impression that we are almost 'extinct' and that our culture is 'dead'. Others think we live only on reservations or look like the sterotype that you see everywhere not realizing that the person you sit next to on the bus in the city could be native american.
Sadly things like the show that was the start of this thread only reinforce those sterotypes.

wa:do

 

[timpeters]

I am not offended. You see, most democratic countries believe in this crazy little thing called "free speech". People are allowed to express ethnic or religious traditions in any way they want to, to create derivations from them, to mix them with others, to create new forms of performance roughly based on them....regardless of their own race, ethnicity, or religion. Other people's religious or ethnic beliefs should not restrict anyone's freedom of expression.

I also think this shows a little bit of hypocrisy on the side of the "offended" parties. If OutKast did the same thing but with a Gospel theme, I doubt there'd this sort of outrage.

 

[painted wolf]

actually there are a lot of Christian native american who I'm sure would be offended. :tsk:

free speach is still bound by rules. For instance you can't shout 'fire' in a crowd just for fun.

wa:do

 

[kreeden]

I am not offended. You see, most democratic countries believe in this crazy little thing called "free speech". People are allowed to express ethnic or religious traditions in any way they want to, to create derivations from them, to mix them with others, to create new forms of performance roughly based on them....regardless of their own race, ethnicity, or religion. Other people's religious or ethnic beliefs should not restrict anyone's freedom of expression.

I also think this shows a little bit of hypocrisy on the side of the "offended" parties. If OutKast did the same thing but with a Gospel theme, I doubt there'd this sort of outrage.

Oh , I'm a bad ogre ... But I have to ask Timpeters . Free Speech , as in those who dared to say out in defence of Arab countries right after Sep. 11 ? Those who lost their jobs for doing so ? So , which " democratic countries " are you refering to ?

 

[Alexander]

I AM GRIEVOUSLY OFFENDED!!!

How dare they do such a thing! Now Native Americans will be forever associated with Outkast's music!Cruel Fate!!! :biglaugh:


Seriously though, not to offended. I didn't see it, so I have no real right to be offended. I think it was probably fairly stereotypical, but at least we're still significant enough to stereotype these days. Better stereotyped than lost to history textbooks.

 

[painted wolf]

er, I'd say better recognized as living productive members of the modern world than sterotyped.
Being thought of only as a sterotype is IMHO more 'lost' than being mentioned in a Text book... at least the book may make an effort to show us as more than a sterotype.

As for Outkasts performance, I have to agree... I didn't see it either so I can't say if it was or wasn't offencive, or how much if it was.

wa:do

 

[timpeters]

Oh , I'm a bad ogre ... But I have to ask Timpeters . Free Speech , as in those who dared to say out in defence of Arab countries right after Sep. 11 ? Those who lost their jobs for doing so ? So , which " democratic countries " are you refering to ?

Yeah, yeah, true But I mean more free-speech in the "unalienable human rights" sense. And heck, I'll still exercise it despite any black-suit wearing men with dark glasses, machine guns, and suspicious search warrants there might be about Though I might be a bit more subtle about it.

And yes Paintedwolf, if at some time during the performance they had shouted "FIRE!!" really loudly then I might have objected

 

[kreeden]

IMHO , any " Right " carries obligation . Free Speech can be misused , mostly as a smoke screen to hide hate behind . I'm not saying that is what you are doing Timpeters , just that it happens .

Having said that , it is good that you speak your mind . I am all for free speech . Without it , many ideas and views would never be shared .



You lost in a book somewhere PW ? I'm always amazed when I hear statements like that . The Celts live on , although there hasn't been any for a couple thousand years now , but the First Nations are history ... ????