Objectively Real

[Ozzie]

But truth that exists objectively (as truth does), and exists independently of subjective perception, doesn't exclude "subjective perception" either --especially as, objectively speaking, we each hold a perception that is truthfully subjective.


Subjectivity really exists.

I don't see pointlessness.

Can you provide an example of subjectivity that "really exists" without being acted out, and so available to third party scrutiny (you might then argue your subjectivity is 'objectively real" because you can verify it??) Sounds like infinite regress to me.

 

[Willamena]

Can you provide an example of subjectivity that "really exists" without being acted out, and so available to third party scrutiny (you might then argue your subjectivity is 'objectively real" because you can verify it??) Sounds like infinite regress to me.

The actor engaging life is an example (i.e. each "me").

 

[Ozzie]

The actor engaging life is an example (i.e. each "me").

An good actor behaves in a role, and is convincing based on their behaviour. Subjectivity is inferred from behaviour by an observer. Yes or no.

 

[Willamena]

Subjectivity is inferred from behaviour by an observer. Yes or no.

I wouldn't picture it that way.

 

[Ozzie]

I wouldn't picture it that way.

Why not?

Question: Does subjective phenomena exist without a notion of ownership in that it requires a perceiver?

 

[Willamena]

Why not?

Question: Does subjective phenomena exist without a notion of ownership in that it requires a perceiver?

To answer your first question, you word questions percularly so that I often don't know what to make of them.

Do you mean the phenomena that is the subjective perspective? If so, then yes, it is dependent upon the concept of ownership --of things, and hence a "self".

 

[Ozzie]

To answer your first question, you word questions percularly so that I often don't know what to make of them.

Do you mean the phenomena that is the subjective perspective? If so, then yes, it is dependent upon the concept of ownership --of things, and hence a "self".

Apologies for my way of asking questions. Here for instance I stuffed my phrasing. Anyway the question is:

Do subjective phenomena exist without a notion of ownership?

 

[Willamena]

Do subjective phenomena exist without a notion of ownership?

I find questions of dependency difficult to answer, because the best answer I can see is "yes and no".

With a concept of 'self' and 'ownership' we have attachment to and expessable being in 'things'. With these concepts put in perspective, we can have no attachment to or expressable being in 'things', but do they disappear? No.

 

[Valjean]

Does a dream exist without a dreamer?

 

[Ozzie]

Does a dream exist without a dreamer?

Yes. A lucid dream contains no concept of ownership, and where ownership is part of a dream it is from a third party perspective.

 

[freethinker44]

Yes. A lucid dream contains no concept of ownership, and where ownership is part of a dream it is from a third party perspective.

So the dream would exist even if there was no mind to experience it?

 

[Willamena]

So the dream would exist even if there was no mind to experience it?

Try this on for size: there never was a "mind experiencing it"; only the experience of "it".

 

[Vile Atheist]

Confucius say: That which appears objectively real...is probably a cheap knock-off.