Nihilism v. Existentialism Debate: Sum v. Iti_Oj (ding ding ding)

[The Sum of Awe]

It seems that the only difference between Nihilism and Existentialism is that Existentialists find it important to or believe we should create a meaning to life while Nihilists necessarily don't believe it's important.

So anywayz, let the boring stuff end and begin the fight DING DING DING!!!

we are the need for morals, we are the meaning

Whatcha mean? (crappy intro debate but ah well)

 

[Iti oj]

It seems that the only difference between Nihilism and Existentialism is that Existentialists find it important to or believe we should create a meaning to life while Nihilists necessarily don't believe it's important.

So anywayz, let the boring stuff end and begin the fight DING DING DING!!!



Whatcha mean? (crappy intro debate but ah well)

Its always had to start. Did well enough to get the ball rolling friend.

First of biological speaking, once life arose, albeit unnecessarily arose, life had a meaning to survive and proliferate. It's fundamental to biology and evolution. This has nothing to do with consioucs thought or desire to live, but it's a biological and genetic drive. The universe does not need us to survive, but life in and of its self needs to survive and propagate the genes/species. That is the first objective meaning of life....this meaning is not absolute. It only holds meaning with life existing.

Next i don't think its so much that we have a need to give meaning. but that consciousness is the need and the source of meaning. To have life/ consciousness is to create meaning and purpose.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Its always had to start. Did well enough to get the ball rolling friend.

First of biological speaking, once life arose, albeit unnecessarily arose, life had a meaning to survive and proliferate. It's fundamental to biology and evolution. This has nothing to do with consioucs thought or desire to live, but it's a biological and genetic drive. The universe does not need us to survive, but life in and of its self needs to survive and propagate the genes/species. That is the first objective meaning of life....this meaning is not absolute. It only holds meaning with life existing.

Next i don't think its so much that we have a need to give meaning. but that consciousness is the need and the source of meaning. To have life/ consciousness is to create meaning and purpose.

That's true that we have instincts to survive, but it doesn't mean if we're unconscious we'll survive 100%, we have certain reflexes we need to adapt in order to survive and we don't adapt them if we do not spread our genes, and there is no fundamental, unconscious instinct that makes us procreate, thus we can let whatever happen happen because there is no meaning to try to change it.

 

[Iti oj]

That's true that we have instincts to survive, but it doesn't mean if we're unconscious we'll survive 100%, .

unconscious and none conscious are two different things... you mean which?

That', we have certain reflexes we need to adapt in order to survive and we don't adapt them if we do not spread our genes, .

what? I think i agree but can you clarify

Th, and there is no fundamental, unconscious instinct that makes us procreate,.

yes their is. for both consious and none conscious life. Instincts go unnoticed in humans because of consciousness.. plus your still young enough not to feel the drive...

thus we can let whatever happen happen because there is no meaning to try to change it.

Yes their is. our genes do their best to program us to change things, survives, and procreate. If we have the ability to survive something its because our genes programed us to have the tools to survive it. It's a fundamental to biology and evolution that life does try, Besides consciousness changes everything. We gan give meaning an purpose. we can actively decide it their is a point or no point. we give/create the point. This ability to create and give meaning and purpose combined withy our biological need to survive and breed is more then enough to over ride this lack of universal unneeded. whore cares? We are the meaning and we give meaning.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

unconscious and none conscious are two different things... you mean which?

None conscious? Never heard of such a word.

What I mean by unconscious is that we have reactions that go into place for protection (such as when you touch a burning stove you unconsciously move your hand, you may not intend to but it's a reaction).

what? I think i agree but can you clarify

We don't have reflexes to dodge a bullet, we have to do it intentionally.

yes their is. for both consious and none conscious life. Instincts go unnoticed in humans because of consciousness.. plus your still young enough not to feel the drive...

I never seen a man get up and impregnate a woman unintentionally.

Yes their is. our genes do their best to program us to change things, survives, and procreate. If we have the ability to survive something its because our genes programed us to have the tools to survive it. It's a fundamental to biology and evolution that life does try, Besides consciousness changes everything. We gan give meaning an purpose. we can actively decide it their is a point or no point. we give/create the point. This ability to create and give meaning and purpose combined withy our biological need to survive and breed is more then enough to over ride this lack of universal unneeded. whore cares? We are the meaning and we give meaning.

We have the ability, but what I'm speaking about is consciously choosing to in some cases or not. There is no reason to consciously choose to go on, there is no universal moral to tell us that we should do so. Unconscious behavior such as putting your hand on the stove, that is unintentional and natural, and we have no choice but to know that they exist. That doesn't mean we have to intentionally survive.

There's no reason to create a meaning or purpose other than just because we want to.

 

[Iti oj]

None conscious? Never heard of such a word.

What I mean by unconscious is that we have reactions that go into place for protection (such as when you touch a burning stove you unconsciously move your hand, you may not intend to but it's a reaction).

.

Things that live by that or less is what i mean by non consciousness i meant non not none.

We don't have reflexes to dodge a bullet, we have to do it intentionally.


.

Yes we do.... yes all life with anything resembling a brain does. You do not notice it because we think. Most things run for cover when they hear a gun go off...why? the need to survive... i guarantee you i would be dodging before i even thought about it if you shot at me. I would figured out the best way to avoid the bullet with my conscious thought....but the need to avoid.... natural... one of the reasons we feel pain...

I never seen a man get up and impregnate a woman unintentionally.

Then why so many abortions? We such a strong sex drive? why is sex pleasurable? You can't argue a philosophical point against empirical biology. Furthure more like i said consciousness is a game changer. it over rided biology, or misfires biology.

We have the ability, but what I'm speaking about is consciously choosing to in some cases or not. There is no reason to consciously choose to go on, there is no universal moral to tell us that we should do so. Unconscious behavior such as putting your hand on the stove, that is unintentional and natural, and we have no choice but to know that they exist. That doesn't mean we have to intentionally survive.

There's no reason to create a meaning or purpose other than just because we want to.

No were are programed, wired, and designed too do so. consciousness is apart of our program. This basic need to survive is fundamental to our understanding and creations of morals. Its the starting point of morality and meaning. Our existence creates them. We are the reason and the creation of these things.

 

[Straw Dog]

It seems that the only difference between Nihilism and Existentialism is that Existentialists find it important to or believe we should create a meaning to life while Nihilists necessarily don't believe it's important.

So anywayz, let the boring stuff end and begin the fight DING DING DING!!!



Whatcha mean? (crappy intro debate but ah well)

Hey Sum! What's up?

Without directly engaging in this debate, I will offer a third perspective between nihilism and Existentialism that you may not be aware of; it's called Absurdism. It's the philosophy that I adhere to in terms of the whole existentialism-nihilism spectrum. The Wiki page has a nice chart for comparative purposes so I'll link it for further explanation.

Absurdism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Iti oj]

Hey Sum! What's up?

Without directly engaging in this debate, I will offer a third perspective between nihilism and Existentialism that you may not be aware of; it's called Absurdism. It's the philosophy that I adhere to in terms of the whole existentialism-nihilism spectrum. The Wiki page has a nice chart for comparative purposes so I'll link it for further explanation.

Absurdism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

we have a discussion thread for that!!! *clicks link*

Edite: id like to discuss this as well if you would care to make a post about it in our discussion thread or to make a new thread somewhere else.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Yes we do.... yes all life with anything resembling a brain does. You do not notice it because we think. Most things run for cover when they hear a gun go off...why? the need to survive... i guarantee you i would be dodging before i even thought about it if you shot at me. I would figured out the best way to avoid the bullet with my conscious thought....but the need to avoid.... natural... one of the reasons we feel pain...

I meant unconscious reflex.

They run for cover themselves, if they didn't care there would be no unconscious reflex to dodge it or save them.

They don't need to survive though...

I don't know since I've never been shot at, but I don't deny I'd probably jump from the sound, that's an unconscious reflex, but I honestly have absolutely no fear in death so I wouldn't run, I'd accept my fate.

Then why so many abortions? We such a strong sex drive? why is sex pleasurable? You can't argue a philosophical point against empirical biology. Furthure more like i said consciousness is a game changer. it over rided biology, or misfires biology.

We have those things because we are genetically used to sex, but sex doesn't happen from unconscious reactions, please tell me one man who has humped a girl unintentionally (3rd degree rape). His body just started producing sperm out of nowhere into her vagina, unwillingly he did that.

You can't because that's never happened before.

No were are programed, wired, and designed too do so. consciousness is apart of our program. This basic need to survive is fundamental to our understanding and creations of morals. Its the starting point of morality and meaning. Our existence creates them. We are the reason and the creation of these things.

Again, we're not programmed to go on for all things, we only have a few unconscious instincts. We have to accept those but we have a choice to not accept our conscious actions.

Our understanding and creation of morals is unnecessary though, thus survival isn't necessary.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Hey Sum! What's up?

Without directly engaging in this debate, I will offer a third perspective between nihilism and Existentialism that you may not be aware of; it's called Absurdism. It's the philosophy that I adhere to in terms of the whole existentialism-nihilism spectrum. The Wiki page has a nice chart for comparative purposes so I'll link it for further explanation.

Absurdism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Will look into this tomorrow, sleeping.

 

[Iti oj]

I meant unconscious reflex.

They run for cover themselves, if they didn't care there would be no unconscious reflex to dodge it or save them.

They don't need to survive though...

I don't know since I've never been shot at, but I don't deny I'd probably jump from the sound, that's an unconscious reflex, but I honestly have absolutely no fear in death so I wouldn't run, I'd accept my fate..

Thats silly not fearing death and being willing to die are not the same thing. if some thug with a gun came to your school and said "one of you need to die any volunteers" would you raise your hand?

we have those things because we are genetically used to sex, but sex doesn't happen from unconscious reactions, please tell me one man who has humped a girl unintentionally (3rd degree rape). His body just started producing sperm out of nowhere into her vagina, unwillingly he did that.

You can't because that's never happened before.

.... we have consciousness. It changes things....look at other animals... it happens all the time... besides yes these things do happen. and thats a bit of an extreme example that doesn't prove your point. We have consciousness of course we don't do most things unintentionally. Does not mean our genes do not drive our body and consciousness to bread.

Again, we're not programmed to go on for all things, we only have a few unconscious instincts. We have to accept those but we have a choice to not accept our conscious actions.

Our understanding and creation of morals is unnecessary though, thus survival isn't necessary

yes we are and we have way more then a few and who says our genes do not dictate some of what we consciously think and want? because they do. any gene that promoting surving and breeding in the conscious thought would spread in the gene pool where those that did not would quickly die off.

I never said the creation of morals were necessary i said we creat them and we are the reason we create them and we are the reason we need them. Biologically we need to survive and breed their for morals need us to survive and breed.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Hey Sum! What's up?

Without directly engaging in this debate, I will offer a third perspective between nihilism and Existentialism that you may not be aware of; it's called Absurdism. It's the philosophy that I adhere to in terms of the whole existentialism-nihilism spectrum. The Wiki page has a nice chart for comparative purposes so I'll link it for further explanation.

Absurdism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not quite sure what Absurdism is saying - does it believe in universal morals but humans will never find them or does it believe that because there aren't universal morals man will never find them?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Thats silly not fearing death and being willing to die are not the same thing. if some thug with a gun came to your school and said "one of you need to die any volunteers" would you raise your hand?

No, there's no meaning to death in the same sense there is no meaning to life. I'm not willing to die on purpose, just willing to die when it strikes because there's no meaning to move one.

.... we have consciousness. It changes things....look at other animals... it happens all the time... besides yes these things do happen. and thats a bit of an extreme example that doesn't prove your point. We have consciousness of course we don't do most things unintentionally. Does not mean our genes do not drive our body and consciousness to bread.

But because it is a conscious reaction to have sex, you have the choice to not procreate, thus there is no fundamental in nature saying we have to have sex.

The other animals choose to, and even some nonhuman animals die virgins also.

Because we have the choice to do it consciously means that there is no instinct or fundamental telling us we need to procreate, there's no reason we have to. We can simply live a life without having to do it. There is no meaning to unless you want to move the species on, but even that is just a goal not as good not as bad as any other.

yes we are and we have way more then a few and who says our genes do not dictate some of what we consciously think and want? because they do. any gene that promoting surving and breeding in the conscious thought would spread in the gene pool where those that did not would quickly die off.

But we don't have to do what we think or want, it's extremely meaningless. Let alone, if our bodies naturally found it fundamentally important, it would be an instinct, there would be an unconscious reaction for it if the body found it important.

I never said the creation of morals were necessary i said we creat them and we are the reason we create them and we are the reason we need them. Biologically we need to survive and breed their for morals need us to survive and breed.

We don't need them, because there are so many morals, so many goals, why pick one over the other? No goal has been proven to be better than another.

We do not need to survive either, as I mentioned. Yes you're going to say that we have fundamental instincts to survive, but that doesn't mean anything, there aren't instincts to make you dodge a bullet unconsciously, have sex unconsciously, or raise a kid unconsciously. Those are conscious choices, there is no reason to do things if you have a choice not to do it. If you have no choice but for it to happen, allow it to happen (Eg. our unconscious reactions).

 

[The Sum of Awe]

we have a discussion thread for that!!! *clicks link*

Edite: id like to discuss this as well if you would care to make a post about it in our discussion thread or to make a new thread somewhere else.

I just read into it more, I'm definitely not an absurdist. So I have no idea how to debate it.

 

[Straw Dog]

Not quite sure what Absurdism is saying - does it believe in universal morals but humans will never find them or does it believe that because there aren't universal morals man will never find them?

No, it tends toward the amoral position, like nihilism I suppose. It replaces dependence on definite ethical codes and morality with a deeper sense of integrity. Integrity is one's internal consistency with one's external actions. I believe that strict adherence to ethical codes inevitably leads to hypocrisy whereas a focus on integrity aims to avoid hypocrisy all together. This is why Absurdism is compatible with my philosophical Taoism since it is also concerned with personal integrity over universal or absolute morality.

Absurdism is mostly concerned with the human tendency to seek a definitive intrinsic and absolute meaning to the universe and our repeatedly failed attempts to find any conclusively. It doesn't deny the existence of all meaning, the folly of nihilism, but rather approaches it with a sort of freedom that maintains one's personal meaning in life in spite of the Absurd, albeit in a postmodern ironic sense. It's a sort of natural paradox, often found within primal nature itself it seems.

It also denies the grandiose schemes of hope. The rejection of hope, in Absurdism, denotes the refusal to believe in anything more than what this absurd life provides. Hope, Camus emphasizes, however, has nothing to do with despair (meaning that the two terms are not antonymous). One can still live fully while rejecting hope, and, in fact, can only do so without hope. Hope is perceived by the Absurdist as another fraudulent method of evading the Absurd, and by not having hope, one will be motivated to live every fleeting moment to the fullest.

When I first posted here I actually didn't realize it was a one-on-one debate haha. Sorry for interfering, but I'll consider posting a thread about Absurdism properly.

 

[Iti oj]

sorry man rushing to work and you distracted me ion chat last night.

 

[Iti oj]

ok sorry it took me so long harsh week. Ima break down my reply into two sections. Biology/genetics and philosophy.

Biology/genetics/evolution: Genes control and create everything. Now sex and breeding.... what to say here... i wanted to bring up my sex life/desires etc as well as that of my friends but i feel it would be inappropriate. I also felt it was not necessary. Sex feels good. why? because our genes make it so. why? so we have more incentive to breed. Even if we choose not to have children sex would not stop. Whats the outcome of sex? children. our genes/body tricked us into breeding. Want proof look at all the abortions, single moms, accident children etc...
We have both conscious and unconscious desires to breed. even if we have to decide to have children or to live because of our consciousness like you suggest, our consciousness is just a result of our genes/biology. Do you really think our genes would leave anything to chance?
Your familiar with the nature vs nurture argument, right? I personaly think its both but regardless even if it were purely nurture our genes dictate that, that is how we learn and grow.
Same thing with survival. Conscious on unconscious its still controlled by our genes. Our genes control at least some of the how/why we think and want things.
No escaping it we have to breed and have to life.
Philosophy:
You say life is not necessary. That may be true.... how ever in our universe life is a necessary out come of physics and chemistry. With the size of our universe and the conditions of our universe life is bound to arise... consciousness is just a result of that. We exist because our universe exist. Why does the universe exist? I can think of two reasons. either because it has to exist or because it exist.

Besides are we not apart of the universe? Doesn't that mean everything we do and think are a part of the universe? we are natural.


Now how is a human created meaning purpose any less real or important then a 'universal' one. were are a part of the universe. we are just as real...

 

[The Sum of Awe]

ok sorry it took me so long harsh week. Ima break down my reply into two sections. Biology/genetics and philosophy.

Biology/genetics/evolution: Genes control and create everything. Now sex and breeding.... what to say here... i wanted to bring up my sex life/desires etc as well as that of my friends but i feel it would be inappropriate. I also felt it was not necessary. Sex feels good. why? because our genes make it so. why? so we have more incentive to breed. Even if we choose not to have children sex would not stop. Whats the outcome of sex? children. our genes/body tricked us into breeding. Want proof look at all the abortions, single moms, accident children etc...
We have both conscious and unconscious desires to breed. even if we have to decide to have children or to live because of our consciousness like you suggest, our consciousness is just a result of our genes/biology. Do you really think our genes would leave anything to chance?
Your familiar with the nature vs nurture argument, right? I personaly think its both but regardless even if it were purely nurture our genes dictate that, that is how we learn and grow.
Same thing with survival. Conscious on unconscious its still controlled by our genes. Our genes control at least some of the how/why we think and want things.
No escaping it we have to breed and have to life.
Philosophy:
You say life is not necessary. That may be true.... how ever in our universe life is a necessary out come of physics and chemistry. With the size of our universe and the conditions of our universe life is bound to arise... consciousness is just a result of that. We exist because our universe exist. Why does the universe exist? I can think of two reasons. either because it has to exist or because it exist.

Besides are we not apart of the universe? Doesn't that mean everything we do and think are a part of the universe? we are natural.


Now how is a human created meaning purpose any less real or important then a 'universal' one. were are a part of the universe. we are just as real...

Reminding myself to reply to this tomorrow.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

ok sorry it took me so long harsh week. Ima break down my reply into two sections. Biology/genetics and philosophy.

Biology/genetics/evolution: Genes control and create everything. Now sex and breeding.... what to say here... i wanted to bring up my sex life/desires etc as well as that of my friends but i feel it would be inappropriate. I also felt it was not necessary. Sex feels good. why? because our genes make it so. why? so we have more incentive to breed.

Not true, it's just that we got used to it through evolution.

Even if we choose not to have children sex would not stop.

Because people like to have sex around the world, but that doesn't mean they're right and you absolutely have to do it or you'd be immoral.

Whats the outcome of sex? children. our genes/body tricked us into breeding. Want proof look at all the abortions, single moms, accident children etc...

Most of that was from sexual desire or rape. Even if it were that way, that doesn't make it a moral just because we have rapists.

We have both conscious and unconscious desires to breed.

Not all of us. Even if asexuals didn't exist, we all have a natural want to steal something that we really desire, doesn't mean we are meant to steal.

even if we have to decide to have children or to live because of our consciousness like you suggest, our consciousness is just a result of our genes/biology. Do you really think our genes would leave anything to chance?

Genes aren't conscious, not aware of their actions, so it's quite possible.

Your familiar with the nature vs nurture argument, right? I personaly think its both but regardless even if it were purely nurture our genes dictate that, that is how we learn and grow.
Same thing with survival. Conscious on unconscious its still controlled by our genes. Our genes control at least some of the how/why we think and want things.

Just because nature makes it this way, doesn't mean it's morally needed. Some things we have no choice, no control, we have to live with those unconscious reactions because they're unavoidable.

No escaping it we have to breed and have to life.

Once again, life isn't a necessity.

Philosophy:
You say life is not necessary. That may be true.... how ever in our universe life is a necessary out come of physics and chemistry.

If this were true, then why are humans the only species that has discovered physics and chemistry?

With the size of our universe and the conditions of our universe life is bound to arise... consciousness is just a result of that. We exist because our universe exist. Why does the universe exist? I can think of two reasons. either because it has to exist or because it exist.

Why did you indent "our"? It's definitely not in belonging of the humans, we own nothing, nature owns everything, including us.

We do have to exist until we die (because there is also no reason to kill yourself) but there is no reason to keep living.

Besides are we not apart of the universe? Doesn't that mean everything we do and think are a part of the universe? we are natural.

Doesn't mean anything, natural =/= morals.

Now how is a human created meaning purpose any less real or important then a 'universal' one. were are a part of the universe. we are just as real...

But that doesn't make our morals universal any more than a toad's morality.

 

[Iti oj]

where is the word moral coming from i never once used it. nor did i mention rape.