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Neither believers nor disbelievers nor between but different trial(s).

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Link, Jun 23, 2022 at 3:47 PM.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    One misconception people have when reading Quran, you either category of belief or disbelief. This thread, will be focused on:

    (1) What Shiite Twelver hadiths say about a category of people that are neither believers nor disbelievers. The trials such people face and how over all these people are people of paradise.
    (2) What Quran says in this regard and a detailed analysis.
    (3) Why philosophically this makes sense and support it by views of scholars and Sufi saints and even Rumi who discussed why there's people of neither "believer" nor "disbeliever"
    (4) Discuss the nature of disbelief, the various types in Quran and hadiths explain them, stubborn aversion to truth is actually the worse type of disbeliever along with hypocrisy of Muslims who disbelieve (these are lowest fire type) but also mention all types, and will attempt to show levels of disbelief with 7 gates of hell (though this maybe hard to show, I will try).
    (5) Discuss the nature of belief, the various types in Quran and hadiths, and levels of faith, and we will see the 7 gates/levels of heaven in this regard. According to hadiths, actually two highest gates are for belief, so there is really two types, and the rest of the gates are for the good people who didn't have faith but weren't disbelievers. But we will discuss these gates and levels and show why believers enter gate 6 and gate 7 (7 being highest) and compare them to the other 5 gates and talk about why faith is so important.

    This is needed to be shown in details. Merely showing hadiths is not enough, people want to know reasons. Quran can be interpreted differently and is by different scholars as far as this issue goes, but with all combined (Quran, hadiths, reasoning details) it will become clear.

    This is needed, because, disbelief is often taken as simply being non-Muslim or non-Shiite Muslim (by official religion title) by some Shiites, but all this is not the case.

    And disbelief should be understood in it's own paradigm. There are mystic searchers from all walks of life. There is seekers of truth among atheists as well who don't love this world life (are even depressed because they aren't satisfied with worldly desires and life) and have not preferred over the next.

    I will discuss how all searchers and seekers of truth searching, will be reward, even if they don't reach (as long as they were on a journey).

    This will be need to asses the opposite, those averting, running, and avoiding truth or are apathetic totally in search of it and all this out of love of worldly life and caprice desires and hate the truth in reality for various reasons and the various type of hate and reasons will determine gate of hell and so not all intentions are same level in this respect.
     
  2. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    The first hadith I want to bring is from Misbahal Shariah:

    Affliction is an adornment for the believer and a mark of honour for the man of intellect, because facing it directly needs steadfastness and firm-footedness, both of which confirm belief. The Holy Prophet said, 'We, the company of the prophets, are the people who have the hardest trials, then after us come the believers, then the others like them.'

    Whoever tastes the food of affliction while under Allah's protection enjoys it more than he enjoys Allah's blessing. He yearns for it when it is not there, because the lights of blessing lie under the balance of affliction and trial, and the balance of affliction and trial lies under the lights of blessing. Many are delivered from affliction and then destroyed in blessing. Allah praised none of His bondsmen, from Adam up to Muhammad, until He had tested him and seen how he fulfilled the duty of worship while in affliction. Allah's marks of honour come, in fact, at the last stage, but the afflictions themselves come in the beginning.

    Whoever leaves the path of affliction is ignoring the lamp of the believers, the beacon of those near to Allah, and the guide for those on the right path. There is no good in a slave who complains of a single trial preceded by thousands of blessings and followed by thousands of comforts. Whoever does not show the patience required in affliction is deprived of thankfulness in the blessings he receives. Similarly, whoever does not give the thankfulness owed for blessings is denied the patience owed in affliction. Whoever is denied both of them is an outcast.

    Ayyub said in his supplication, 'O Allah, verily seventy comforts and ease did not come to me until You sent me seventy afflictions.'

    And Wahb ibn Munabbih said, 'Affliction to a believer is like a bit to a horse and a halter to a camel.' Ali said, 'Steadfastness in relation to belief is like the head to the body. The head of steadfastness is afflictions but only those who act righteously understand that.'




    We see in this part of Misbahal Shariah, facing afflictions and gratitude towards blessings, are important. Believers do both. But so does a category people like them. Then there is a third category of people who don't do these two. It was also explained, if you lack one, you will lack the other, and they go together. This is found in Quran emphasis of patience with gratitude together many verses, but this slightly off-topic. Just wanted to clarify for the categorization.

    So in afflictions:

    Prophets have highest affliction and face it with most patience and gratitude.
    Believers have the highest after that.
    Then those like them (category below).
    Then there is those who are outcasts (neither patient nor grateful, and these go together, if you are one you are the other).


    So there is a category of non-believers who are praised for how they face trials of life and afflictions and grateful for blessings that are not believers.

    So we see there is people who are good natured and honored by afflictions and how they face them, and blessings and gratitude, and they are honored, but that are not believers per this hadith.

    We can see even if one doesn't come and recognize Quran, they maybe, outcasts/disbelievers for how they treat God's trials and signs in the world and creation.

    So you can disbelieve in God's signs and not even hear of Quran. Like wise, you can believe in God's signs (some of them) not know of Quran and Ahllulbayt (a) truth and live honorably by being patient and grateful.

    I will also explain sometime later, atheists can be grateful to God and patient under his trials and love God, but not know he exists and not affirm his existence. This is not impossible, and I know people like this. I will devote a whole philosophy for the seekers from atheists (label themselves this) who are good people and talk about it once we see many hadiths about this subject and Quranic verses, and we will analyze why "not all atheists should be called disbelievers".
     
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  3. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    @AlexanderG this topic might interest you, since you talked about disbelievers as non-Muslims when you analyzed that aspect of the Quran.
     
  4. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    1. Following goodness/light in examples of others and example of Prophets (a) and the relationship of all this with good non-Muslims who aren't believers but not disbelievers.


    We see in Misbahal Shariah:


    Following the example of another is nothing more than what has been bestowed upon the spirit at its origin, when the light of time was mixed with that of eternity. Following a model, however, does not consist of adopting the marks of outward actions and claiming descent from the awliya' of the faith from among the wise and the Imams. As Allah said,


    يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ

    The day when We will call every people by their Imam. (17:71)

    that is, whoever follows someone with effacement is pure. And elsewhere,


    فَإِذَا نُفِخَ فِي الصُّورِ فَلَا أَنسَابَ بَيْنَهُمْ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَلَا يَتَسَاءلُونَ

    So when the trumpet is blown, there will be no ties of relationship between them on that day, nor shall they ask of each other. (23:101)

    The Commander of the Faithful said, 'Souls are a drafted army. Those who know each other are intimate, and those who do not know each other differ from each other.' Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyah was asked who had taught him good manners, and he replied, 'My Lord taught me manners in myself. Whatever I find to be good in people of intelligence and insight I follow and use; whatever I find ugly in the ignorant I avoid and forsake forever. That has brought me to the path of knowledge. There is no sounder way for the astute believer than to follow the example of others, because it is the clearest path and soundest goal.' And Allah said to Muhammad, the greatest of His creation,


    أُوْلَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللّهُ فَبِهُدَاهُمُ اقْتَدِهْ

    These are they whom Allah guided, therefore follow their guidance. (6:90)

    Elsewhere He said,


    ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ أَنِ اتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

    Then We revealed to you: Follow the faith of Abraham, the upright one. (16:123)

    If the faith of Allah had had a path straighter than following a model, He would have recommended it to His prophets and His supporters.

    The Holy Prophet said, 'There is a light in the heart which is illuminated only by following the truth and intending towards the right path. It is a part of the light of the prophets which has been entrusted in the hearts of the believers.'






    2. The light emanates even to non-Muslims. However, believers who follow the light have to recognize the names of those who are the light of God.


    It is related with a sound chain of authority from Salman al- Farsi, 'I visited the Messenger of Allah who looked at me and said,

    "O Salman, Allah does not send a prophet or messenger unless there are with him twelve chiefs."

    “O Messenger of Allah, I know this from the people of the two books.”

    "O Salman, do you know my twelve chiefs, whom Allah has chosen to be leaders after me?"

    "Allah and His Messenger know best."

    "O Salman, Allah created me from the quintessence of light, and called me, so I obeyed Him. Then He created 'Ali from my light, and called him, and he obeyed. From my light and the light of 'Ali He created Fatimah: He called her and she obeyed. From me, 'Ali and Fatimah, He created al-Hasan and al-Husayn. He called them and they obeyed Him. Allah has named us with five of His names: Allah is al-Mahmud (the Praised) and I am Muhammad (worthy of praise); Allah is al-'Ali (the High), and this is 'Ali (the one of high rank); Allah is al-Fatir (Creator out of nothing), and this is Fatimah; Allah is the One with Hasan (beneficence), and this is Hasan; Allah is Muhassin (the Beautiful), and this is Husayn. He created nine Imams from the light of al-Husayn and called them and they obeyed Him, before Allah created either Heaven on high, the outstretched earth, the air, the angels or man. We were lights who glorified Him, listened to Him and obeyed Him."

    "O Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be your ransom! What is there for the person who recognizes these men as they should be recognized?"

    "O Salman, whoever recognizes them as they should be recognized, and follows their example, befriends them and is free of their enemies, by Allah! he is one of us. He will return to where we return, and he will be where we are!"

    "O Messenger of Allah, is there belief without knowing their names and lineage?"

    "No, Salman."


    "Messenger of Allah, where will I find them?"

    "You already know al-Husayn; then there will be the master of the worshippers, 'Ali ibn Husayn (Zayn al-'Abidin); then his son Muhammad ibn 'Ali, the piercer of the knowledge of the early and the later prophets and messengers (al-Baqir); then Ja'far ibn Muhammad, the truthful tongue of Allah (al-Sadiq); then Musa ibn Ja'far, the one who kept his rage silent through patience in Allah (al-Kadhim); then 'Ali ibn Musa, pleased with the secret of Allah (al-Rida '); then Muhammad ibn 'Ali, the chosen one from the creatures of Allah (al-Mukatar); then 'Ali ibn Muhammad, the guide to Allah (al-Hadi); then al-Hasan, son of 'Ali, the silent, trustworthy guardian over the secret of Allah (al-'Askari); then mim ha' mim dal (Muhammad), called Ibn al-Hasan, the announcer who establishes the right of Allah."

    Salman said, 'I wept. Then I continued,

    "O Messenger of Allah, let my life be deferred until their time! "’

    'He said, "O Salman, recite this:



    فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ أُولاهُمَا بَعَثْنَا عَلَيْكُمْ عِبَادًا لَّنَا أُوْلِي بَأْسٍ شَدِيدٍ فَجَاسُواْ خِلاَلَ الدِّيَارِ وَكَانَ وَعْدًا مَّفْعُولاً

    ثُمَّ رَدَدْنَا لَكُمُ الْكَرَّةَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَمْدَدْنَاكُم بِأَمْوَالٍ وَبَنِينَ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ أَكْثَرَ نَفِيرًا



    When the promise for the first of the two came, We sent over you our servants of mighty prowess, so they went to and fro among the houses, and it was a promise to be accomplished. Then We gave you back the turn to prevail against them, and aided you with wealth and children and made you a numerous band." ' (17:5-6)

    "I wept a lot," said Salman, "and my yearning became intense.” I said, "O Messenger of Allah, is it a pledge from you?"

    ' "Yes, by the One Who sent me and entrusted me with the Message; it is a pledge from me and from 'Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, al-Husayn, and the nine Imams descended from the children of al-Husayn, to you and those who are with us, and those of us who are wronged. Whoever is truly sincere in his belief, then by Allah, Salman, let Iblis and his armies come. Whoever has pure disbelief will be punished by retaliation, torture and inheritance (i.e. by others rather than them). Your Lord will not wrong anyone. It is we who are indicated in this verse:



    وَنُرِيدُ أَن نَّمُنَّ عَلَى الَّذِينَ اسْتُضْعِفُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَنَجْعَلَهُمْ أَئِمَّةً وَنَجْعَلَهُمُ الْوَارِثِينَ. وَنُمَكِّنَ لَهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَنُرِي فِرْعَوْنَ وَهَامَانَ وَجُنُودَهُمَا مِنْهُم مَّا كَانُوا يَحْذَرُونَ



    We desired to bestow a favour upon those who were deemed weak in the land, and to make them the leaders, and to make them the heirs, and to grant them power in the land, and to make Pharaoh, Haman and their armies see from them what they feared." ' (28:5-6)

    Salman said, “I took leave of the Messenger of Allah, completely unconcerned as to how Salman would meet death, or how death would meet him.”










    Comment: We see in this hadith, Salman (a) asks if there is faith without knowing names after Ahlulbayt (a) are described with being light from God's light. This is because he knows the light inwardly is Ahlulbayt (a), so he is asking, if someone follows and holds on to light, but does not know their names, are they believers. Mohammad (s) says no.

    So believers is defined as recognizing the Imam of time or Ahlulbayt (a) of the time. The last of these houses God allows to be risen and his named remembered in, being the house of Mohammad (s).


    We saw earlier, following virtues you find in others and avoiding ugly traits, is also a sound path to knowledge. So we see people following good traits and avoiding ugly traits, can possibly not recognize names of Ahlulbayt (a) (for various reasons), so are not believers, but definitely are on a path of knowledge of the light and increase in it as they put their knowledge to practice and follow examples of goodness they find and avoid examples of ugly nature of evil they find in people.

    The inward of the light is the Imam (a) and he is the light emanating, but not everyone knows the name of the Imam of time or the Ahlulbayt (a). So they aren't believers but not disbelievers, who follow the light without recognizing the names.

    Salman (a) asked in a way that implied the light can be followed without knowing their names, But Mohammad (s) clarified this is not faith though, the faith is to seek out truth and find the names of the leaders we have to hold on to and find the book of God explanation in all this.

    We will see more hadiths from many sources. Misbahal Shariah was just to get started.
     
  5. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Non-haters enter paradise:


    as-Sãdiq (a.s.) said explaining this verse: " 'who have not in their power the means 'to our enmity, so that they could have got ill-feelings [towards us],'nor can they find a way' to the truth, that they could come on the right path; they will enter the garden because of their good deeds and their abstaining from the unlawful things forbidden by Allãh, but they will not get the rank of the righteous ones." (Al-Kafi.;at-Tafsīr,al-‘Ayyãshī)Durays al-Kunãsī narrates that he said to Abū Ja‘far (a.s.):"May I be made your ransom! What is the condition of those who believe in the One God and the prophethood of Muhammad (s.a.w.a.),who have committed sins and die without believing in an imãm and do not know about your love and obedience?" He said: "As for these,they shall remain in their graves, and not come out; whoever (among them) had done good deeds and did not show any animosity [towards us], a tunnal will be opened for him to the garden which Allãh has created in the west; thus refreshing breeze will continue reaching him in his grave upto the Day of Resurrection until he comes before Allãh; He will take account of his good and evil, then he will go either to the paradise or to the fire. These are they who depend on the decision ofAllãh. "Then he (a.s.) said: "And likewise is done to the weak ones,the idiots, the children and the minor children of the Muslims. And as for [our] antagonists among the People of the Qiblah, a tunnel is dug for them to the fire which Allãh has created in the east, and will reach to him the flames, sparks, smoke and the hell's out-bursts up to the Day of Resurrection; then their destination is the hell." (at-Tafsīr,al-Qummī)



    There is a people who find no way to disbelieve in Ahlulbayt (a) and oppose them nor find a way to acknowledge them but it's said they won't get the rank of the righteous ones.
     
  6. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    The non-ability to read the Quran properly.

    Umar ibn Ishãq says: "Abū‘Abdillãh (a.s.) was asked as to what was the definition of the weak which has been mentioned by Allãh. He said: 'He who does not properly recite any of the Qur’ãnic chapters, while Allãh has created it in such a way that no one should fail to recite it properly."' (Ma‘ãni '1-akhbãr)

    My (Link's) comment: this hadith shows those who cannot properly understand Quran due to translation issues or other reasons, they are included in mustafeen. Not everyone has reading comprehension or can concentrate as well there is the sorcery that makes it difificult, and many reasons that keep people from the clear recitation, and also the true recitation needs help from ahadith and believers who know the hadiths well, and a person might not have approached hadiths because of how contradicting and many fabrications in the attributions of hadiths to Ahlulbayt (a).

    And so what am I saying? I'm saying reading Quran (one go) doesn't mean a person is not a Mustaf (without means to acknowledge truth nor reject).

    He may be at the mercy of very bad translations. Which is the universal current state of translations in my view.

    This doesn't mean they are off the hook if they hate the truth and recognized it and turned away either.

    Nor can it be they avoid seeking truth for sake of caprice and life of this world.
     
    #6 Link, Jun 23, 2022 at 4:44 PM
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022 at 4:51 PM
  7. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Salam

    Another way to approach the issue is to look at:


    Islam before Mohammad (s) came and after Isa (a) - this period of having no Messengers (a) and no Imam in public. What the state of religion was, and what Imams (a) say about this state.

    And to discuss now, that no Imam (a) is in public, compare, and analyze the situation with respect to disbelief and faith and neither position (neither affirming the proper religion but neither rejecting).

    We will also bring the subject of Shirk and worshiping Iblis during this time. Because Shirk is disbelief in God and is a severe evil that can't be forgiven. But then there were righteous people who weren't upon the true religion either and who sought truth to their best ability and worshiped God as far they knew of him.

    So we will look at what was stated about this period.
     
  8. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Sermon 2: I praise Allah seeking completion of His Blessing...
    Delivered on return from Siffin
    Arabia before proclamation of Prophethood

    ومن خطبة له ) عليه السلام (بعد انصرافه من صفين

    وفيها حال الناس قبل البعثة وصفة آل النبي ثمّ صفة قوم آخرين:

    I praise Allah seeking completion of His Blessing, submitting to His Glory and expecting safety from committing His sins. I invoke His help being in need of His Sufficiency (of protection). He whom He guides does not go astray, He with whom He is hostile gets no protection. He whom He supports does not remain needy. Praise is most weighty of all that is weighed and the most valuable of all that is treasured.

    أحْمَدُهُ اسْتِتْماماً لِنِعْمَتِهِ، وَاسْتِسْلاَماً لِعِزَّتِهِ، واسْتِعْصَاماً مِنْ مَعْصِيَتِهِ، وَأَسْتَعِينُهُ فَاقَةً إِلى كِفَايَتِهِ، إِنَّهُ لاَ يَضِلُّ مَنْ هَدَاهُ، وَلا يَئِلُ مَنْ عَادَاهُ، وَلا يَفْتَقِرُ مَنْ كَفَاهُ; فَإِنَّهُ أَرْجَحُ ما وُزِنَ، وَأَفْضَلُ مَا خُزِنَ.

    I stand witness that there is no god but Allah the One. He has no like. My testimony has been tested in its frankness, and its essence is our belief. We shall cling to it for ever till we live and shall store it for facing the tribulations that overtake us because it is the foundation stone of Belief (iman) and the first step towards good actions and Divine pleasure. It is the means to keep Satan away.

    وَأَشْهَدُ أَنْ لاَ إِلهَ إِلاَّ اللهُ، شَهَادَةً مُمْتَحَناً إِخْلاَصُهَا، مُعْتَقَداً مُصَاصُهَا، نَتَمَسَّكُ بها أَبَداً ما أَبْقانَا، وَنَدَّخِرُهَا لاِهَاوِيلِ مَا يَلْقَانَا، فَإِنَّها عَزيمَةُ الاْيمَانِ، وَفَاتِحَةُ الاْحْسَانِ، وَمَرْضَاةُ الرَّحْمنِ، وَمَدْحَرَةُ الشَّيْطَانِ.

    I also stand witness that Muhammad (S) is His slave and His Prophet. Allah sent him with the illustrious religion, effective emblem, written Book,1 effulgent light, sparkling gleam and decisive injunction in order to dispel doubts, present clear proofs, administer warning through signs and to warn of punishments. At that time people had fallen in vices whereby the rope of religion had been broken, the pillars of belief had been shaken, principles had been sacrileged, system had become topsy turvy, openings were narrow, passage was dark, guidance was unknown and darkness prevailed.

    وَأَشْهَدُ أَنَّ مُحَمَّداً عَبْدُهُ وَرَسُولُهُ، أرْسَلَهُ بِالدِّينِ المشْهُورِ، وَالعَلَمِ المأْثُورِ، وَالكِتَابِ المسْطُورِ، وَالنُّورِ السَّاطِعِ، وَالضِّيَاءِ اللاَّمِعِ، وَالاَمْرِ الصَّادِعِ، إزَاحَةً لِلشُّبُهَاتِ، وَاحْتِجَاجاً بِالبَيِّنَاتِ، وَتَحْذِيراً بِالايَاتِ، وَتَخْويفاً بِالمَثُلاَتِ، وَالنَّاسُ في فِتَن انْجَذَمَ فِيها حَبْلُ الدِّينِ، وَتَزَعْزَعَتْ سَوَارِي اليَقِينِ، وَاخْتَلَفَ النَّجْرُ، وَتَشَتَّتَ الاْمْرُ، وَضَاقَ الْـمَخْرَجُ، وَعَمِيَ المَصْدَرُ، فَالهُدَى خَامِلٌ، واَلعَمَى شَامِلٌ.

    Allah was being disobeyed, Satan was given support and Belief had been forsaken. As a result the pillars of religion fell down, its traces could not be discerned, its passages had been destroyed and its streets had fallen into decay. People obeyed Satan and treaded his paths. They sought water from his watering places. Through them Satan’s emblems got flying and his standard was raised in vices which trampled the people under their hoofs, and treaded upon them with their feet. The vices stood on their toes (in full stature) and the people immersed in them were strayed, perplexed, ignorant and seduced as though in a good house2 with bad neighbours. Instead of sleep they had wakefulness and for antimony they had tears in the eyes. They were in a land where the learned were in bridle (keeping their mouths shut) while the ignorant were honoured.

    عُصِيَ الرَّحْمنُ، وَنُصِرَ الشَّيْطَانُ، وَخُذِلَ الاِْيمَانُ، فَانْهَارَتْ دَعَائِمُهُ، وَتَنكَّرَتْ مَعَالِمُهُ، وَدَرَسَتْ سُبُلُهُ، وَعَفَتْ شُرُكُهُ.

    أَطَاعُوا الشَّيْطَانَ فَسَلَكُوا مَسَالِكَهُ، وَوَرَدُوا مَنَاهِلَهُ، بِهِمْ سَارَتْ أَعْلامُهُ، وَقَامَ لِوَاؤُهُ، في فِتَن دَاسَتْهُمْ بِأَخْفَافِهَا، وَوَطِئَتْهُمْ بأَظْلاَفِهَا وَقَامَتْ عَلَى سَنَابِكِهَا، فَهُمْ فِيهَا تَائِهُونَ حَائِرونَ جَاهِلُونَ مَفْتُونُونَ، في خَيْرِ دَار، وَشَرِّ جِيرَان، نَوْمُهُمْ سُهُودٌ، وَكُحْلُهُمْ دُمُوعٌ، بأَرْض عَالِمُها مُلْجَمٌ، وَجَاهِلُها مُكْرَمٌ.

    In the same sermon Amir al-mu’minin referred to Al an-Nabi (the Household of the Holy Prophet) as under
    ومنها: ويعني آل النبي ( صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

    They are the trustees of His secrets, shelter for His affairs, source of knowledge about Him, centre of His wisdom, valleys for His books and mountains of His religion. With them Allah straightened the bend of religion’s back and removed the trembling of its limbs.

    هُمْ مَوْضِعُ سِرِّهِ، وَلَجَأُ أَمْرِهِ، وَعَيْبَةُ عِلْمِهِ، وَمَوْئِلُ حُكْمِهِ، وَكُهُوفُ كُتُبِهِ، وَجِبَالُ دِينِه، بِهِمْ أَقَامَ انْحِناءَ ظَهْرِهِ، وَأذْهَبَ ارْتِعَادَ فَرَائِصِهِ.

    In the same Sermon he spoke about the hypocrites
    منها: يعني بها قوماً آخرين

    They sowed vices, watered them with deception and harvested destruction.

    زَرَعُوا الفُجُورَ، وَسَقَوْهُ الغُرُورَ، وَحَصَدُوا الثُّبُورَ ،

    Ali Muhammad
    آل محمد (عليه السلام)

    None in the Islamic community can be taken at par with the Progeny3 of the Prophet (Ali Muhammad). One who was under their obligation cannot be matched with them. They are the foundation of religion and pillar of Belief. The forward runner has to turn back to them while the follower has to overtake them. They possess the chief characteristics for vicegerency. In their favour exists the will and succession (of the Prophet). This is the time when right has returned to its owner and diverted to its centre of return.

    لا يُقَاسُ بِآلِ مُحَمَّد (عليهم السلام) مِنْ هذِهِ الاُمَّةِ أَحَدٌ، وَلا يُسَوَّى بِهِمْ مَنْ جَرَتْ نِعْمَتُهُمْ عَلَيْهِ أبَداً.

    هُمْ أَسَاسُ الدِّينِ، وَعِمَادُ اليَقِينِ، إِلَيْهمْ يَفِيءُ الغَالي، وَبِهِمْ يَلْحَقُ التَّالي، وَلَهُمْ خَصَائِصُ حَقِّ الوِلايَةِ، وَفِيهِمُ الوَصِيَّةُ وَالوِرَاثَةُ، الاْنَ إِذْ رَجَعَ الحَقُّ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ، وَنُقِلَ إِلَى مُنْتَقَلِهِ.

    Alternative Sources for Sermon 2
    (1) Ibn Qutaybah, ‘Uyun, I, 326;

    (2) al-Tabari, al-Mustarshid, p. 73;

    (3) Ibn ‘Abd Rabbih, al-’Iqd, III, 112;

    (4) al-'Amidi, Ghurar, 331, 354;

    (5) Ibn Talhah, Matalib, I.


    My comments:

    (1) Religion was such that Satanic traits were praised, ignorant honored, and religion foundations were not there and it was not strong. Now this is despite Torah and Gospels and books between.

    (2) We see Ahlulbayt (a) as a means to get out of darkness to the light and way to rely on God and insights to truth and knowledge.

    (3) The Ahlulbayt before Mohammad's (a) Ahlulbayt was Ahlulbayt of Musa and Haroun (peace be upon them all), however, they were not a bright light and a lot had to do with truth not conveyed, truth mixed with falsehood and the religion they taught misrepresented by scholars or clergy of Christians and Jews.

    My question: What state are we in? Clear guidance from Ahlulbayt (a) stage or darkness to the light stage, or something between. I believe it's somewhat between.

    So avoiding Ahlulbayt (A) and not coming to them is condemned and you perish. But not everyone can avoid or choose not to come Ahlulbayt (a) and we will look at reasons as to why which was similar reasons why not everyone sought the truth of the Torah and Gospels and books between and arrived at guidance of the Ahlulbayt (a) before Mohammad's (a) Ahlulbayt (a).
     
  9. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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  10. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Salam

    One way to translate verses that say "la yuminoon" , is they "they don't believe", another is "they won't believe" or "they don't believe (even if shown the truth and is proven to them)" type recitation.

    But let us look at the context of the verse quoted by so many of the hadiths mentioned so far.



    إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ ظَالِمِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ قَالُوا فِيمَ كُنْتُمْ ۖ قَالُوا كُنَّا مُسْتَضْعَفِينَ فِي الْأَرْضِ ۚ قَالُوا أَلَمْ تَكُنْ أَرْضُ اللَّهِ وَاسِعَةً فَتُهَاجِرُوا فِيهَا ۚ فَأُولَٰئِكَ مَأْوَاهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ ۖ وَسَاءَتْ مَصِيرًا | Indeed, those whom the angels take away while they are oppressing themselves, they ask, ‘What state were you in?’ They reply, ‘We were oppressed in the land.’ They say, ‘Was not Allah’s earth vast enough so that you might migrate in it?’ The refuge of such shall be hell, and it is an evil destination. | An-Nisaa : 97

    إِلَّا الْمُسْتَضْعَفِينَ مِنَ الرِّجَالِ وَالنِّسَاءِ وَالْوِلْدَانِ لَا يَسْتَطِيعُونَ حِيلَةً وَلَا يَهْتَدُونَ سَبِيلًا | Except the oppressed among men, women and children, who have neither access to any means nor are guided to any way. | An-Nisaa : 98

    فَأُولَٰئِكَ عَسَى اللَّهُ أَنْ يَعْفُوَ عَنْهُمْ ۚ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَفُوًّا غَفُورًا | Maybe Allah will excuse them, for Allah is all-excusing, all-forgiving. | An-Nisaa : 99

    وَمَنْ يُهَاجِرْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ يَجِدْ فِي الْأَرْضِ مُرَاغَمًا كَثِيرًا وَسَعَةً ۚ وَمَنْ يَخْرُجْ مِنْ بَيْتِهِ مُهَاجِرًا إِلَى اللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ ثُمَّ يُدْرِكْهُ الْمَوْتُ فَقَدْ وَقَعَ أَجْرُهُ عَلَى اللَّهِ ۗ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُورًا رَحِيمًا | Whoever migrates in the way of Allah will find many havens and plenitude in the earth. And whoever leaves his home migrating toward Allah and His Apostle, and is then overtaken by death, his reward shall certainly fall on Allah, and Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful. | An-Nisaa : 100




    We see in these verses the context of verse 4:98 which hadiths quote to show a category of neither believers or disbelievers. But we see the context of the verses show, this is not an excuse not to search and seek God and his Messenger (s).

    Then it finally states whoever leaves their house in attempt to migrate towards God and his Messenger but death takes over them, they will be rewarded. The line "Allah is Forgiving Merciful" implies perhaps they don't reach recognition of God and his Messenger, but they were on a path seeking them and were on the way to their truth.

    So this is the distinction.

    Regarding verse 4:100 we find this in Misbahal Shariah as well:

    Seek well being (salamah) from Allah wherever you are in every state you may be in, for your faith, your heart, and the ultimate outcome of your affairs. He who seeks it does not always find it. How then, is it that there are some who expose themselves to affliction, travel the opposite path to well-being and oppose its principles, seeing safety as destruction and destruction as safety?

    Well-being has been taken away from people in every age, especially this one; yet it can be rediscovered through enduring antipathy and even injury from other people, through patience in the face of disaster, making light of death, fleeing from whatever is reprehensible and being content with a minimum of material possessions. If you are not like that, then you must go into retreat. If you cannot do that then be silent, although silence is not the same as retreat. If you cannot be silent, then speak what will help you and not harm you; but that is not the same thing as silence. If you cannot find any way to do that, then move about by journeying from land to land, casting your self (nafs) into the uncharted territories with a pure intention, humble heart, and steadfast body. Allah said,


    إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلآئِكَةُ ظَالِمِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ قَالُواْ فِيمَ كُنتُمْ قَالُواْ كُنَّا مُسْتَضْعَفِينَ فِي الأَرْضِ قَالْوَاْ أَلَمْ تَكُنْ أَرْضُ اللّهِ وَاسِعَةً فَتُهَاجِرُواْ فِيهَا فَأُوْلَـئِكَ مَأْوَاهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ وَسَاءتْ مَصِيرًا



    Surely, [as for] those whom the angels cause to die while they are unjust to their souls, they shall say, "In what state were you?" They shall say, "We were oppressed in the land." They shall say, "Was not Allah's earth spacious so that you could have migrated therein?" (4:97)

    Take whatever belongs to the rightly acting bondsmen of Allah. Do not struggle with obscure matters, nor contend with contradictions. If anyone tells you, 'I', say 'you'. Do not claim knowledge in anything, even if you are an expert in it. Uncover your secret only to one who is nobler in the faith than you, and thus you will find nobility. If you do this you will obtain well being, and you will remain with Almighty without any connection to anything else.




    My comment: Truth is everyone in all societies spread. There is truth everywhere. That said, some people can be very arrogant and assume they know everything. This arrogance prevents them from seeking. The Imam (a) lays out conditions which truth can be sought and guidance achieved. Then if you can't do that, do this and that. Then this and that. Finally, if they can't achieve any of this and are severe state of corruption, one should go about in the land seeking guidance from lands and people's they don't know and are not familiar with - a humble heart and pure intention.

    Imam (a) clarified that not all those who seek find. This is why he quotes the verse. But you have to seek, because seeking is at least a stage of paradise. Whoever travels on their way to the light, even if they don't recognize the truth of it nor reach it, will be rewarded.

    However, a person described in the first place as "How then, is it that there are some who expose themselves to affliction, travel the opposite path to well-being and oppose its principles, seeing safety as destruction and destruction as safety?"

    So this is the difference.

    Believers arrive at well-being and it's traits.
    Seekers are at least humble, searching and have pure intentions.
    Then you have opposite to seekers and travel the opposite way of well-being and light and virtues.
     
  11. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    This from Misbahal Shariah also relates to seeking knowledge (although we see not everyone seeking it finds it):

    Ignorance is a form whose composition is of this world. When it advances, there is darkness; when it retreats, there is light. The bondsman vacillates with it as shadows vacillate with the sun. Have you not looked at man? Sometimes you find that he is ignorant of his own qualities and praises them, while he recognizes their faults in others and criticizes them. At other times you find that a person knows his own nature and criticizes it, while praising the same in others. He vacillates between protection and disappointment. If he encounters integrity and protection, he is correct. If he encounters lack of assistance and desertion, he errs.

    The key to ignorance is being satisfied with the knowledge one possesses, and placing all one's trust in it. The key to knowledge is the desire to exchange one level of knowledge for a higher level, together with divine grace and guidance. The lowest quality of an ignorant man is that he lays claim to knowledge which he does not deserve; his most common characteristic is ignorance of his own ignorance, and the most extreme aspect of his ignorance is to reject knowledge. There is nothing whose affirmation is the reality of its negation other that worldly ignorance and greed. All ignorant people are alike.





    My comment: We saw earlier not everyone who seeks finds. But to not seek is not acceptable either. Ultimately, we see who strives for God will find his ways per Surah Ankabut, but seekers may not strive and struggle for God that much, this is why, they aren't considered righteous per the other hadith, but aren't evil either since they are humble and pure and innocent in intentions.

    We see now why "the oppressed" who find neither way to disbelieve or believe, are people of paradise, when seeking truth and are humble, but if not seeking any truth nor humble nor the other traits mentioned from Imam Jaffar (a) and settle in all that ignorance, they can't be forgiven. We also see why now they are not of the rank of righteous. Because if they truly wanted to exchange their knowledge and strived, they would arrive at truth.

    So not all seekers find, but all seeks striving for God his due struggle do find.

    Seekers enter paradise even if they don't find but because they didn't strive as they should, they aren't rank of righteous.
     
  12. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. . I swear by the night when it draws a veil, 1And the day when it shines in brightness, 2And the creating of the male and the female, 3Your striving is most surely (directed to) various (ends). 4Then as for him who gives away and guards (against evil), 5And accepts the best, 6We will facilitate for him the easy end. 7And as for him who is niggardly and considers himself free from need (of Allah), 8And rejects the best, 9We will facilitate for him the difficult end. 10And his wealth will not avail him when he perishes. 11Surely Ours is it to show the way, 12And most surely Ours is the hereafter and the former. 13Therefore I warn you of the fire that flames: 14None shall enter it but the most unhappy, 15Who gives the lie (to the truth) and turns (his) back. 16And away from it shall be kept the one who guards most (against evil), 17Who gives away his wealth, purifying himself 18And no one has with him any boon for which he should be rewarded, 19Except the seeking of the pleasure of his Lord, the Most High. 20And he shall soon be well-pleased. 21



    We see in this Surah it's upon God to show the way. But the people who enter hell are only those who deny it and turn on their backs.


    Hadiths say if people don't recognize the truth but don't deny it and withhold denial, they aren't disbelievers (see section of this subject in Al-Kafi for example, a few there that say this).

    So these traits of people in hell need two traits:

    (1) denial of God's guidance and the beauty (al-Husna translated here as the best, but should "the beauty")
    (2) Turning away from God's guidance and the beauty.

    You can't deny the beauty, without some exposure to it.

    And it being upon God, people should seek it. Those seeking it but not arriving at will be forgiven.

    Those who turn away from it and deny it, the beautiful guidance and light and religion, are the only ones to enter fire per these verses.

    We saw earlier if a person can't properly recite Quran (ie. it's beauty is hidden), they will be counted as oppressed without means to acknowledge truth nor disbelieve.

    However, in Surah Yonus, it's said "they deny what has not come to them the knowledge of and it's interpretation".

    So if one does not know, but doesn't deny, but continues to search and doesn't just deny without knowledge and turn away from the guidance, they aren't disbelievers, and will be considered seekers so as long as they continue to seek knowledge humbly.
     
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  13. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    That’s a very interesting concept that I haven’t seriously thought about before, that a seeker is not a non believer. We were all seekers once so it’s comforting to think that we perhaps were not disbelievers - we just hadn’t found the truth yet.

    Thanks for that insight Link.
     
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