natural theology technician

[nathanielfirst]

what do people on this board think of using "natural theology" i.e. unbiased reasoning rather than scriptural traditions to study God(s)?

my experience is, some kind of religion is what is going on in this universe, and many of the religions out there cover the same material. they cover the same material, but they are very very different in what they are saying. not knowing which religion to adhere to as they are so different, but wanting to come to the truth because it is so important to me, take a piecemeal approach and test concept by concept mined from every religion to see if it is true. unlike science you are less certain about the things you 'discover' as there really is no good way to check this stuff that is so far above your grasp. but its so important you make do with the 10% probabilities that you do get...

I used to hate religion as an atheist but then I took inventory of my life one day and found, that when you assume religion is the truth, your life snaps into focus, a sort of gestalt thing, like seeing a picture that's an old/ young woman. if you apply the things found in religious books to life, you find the religious concepts carrying forward/ working /moving in your life. and only religions, not philosophy, talk about these things, so you have to go to the religious traditions to find people writing about religious things.

concrete example: IF you were pretty sure life were a test, you would be pretty certain that somewhere, THEN , there is a score that you recieve. so there must be some type of afterlife - yet perhaps it is not a forever afterlife. or is forever. don't know.

another: IF there is something close to karma/reward, THEN a deity must administer it/control it -sorry Theraveda Buddhism- for a good deed of giving directions to a stranger to be matched by being given directions as a stranger, someone must exist who is intelligent enough to see both sets of strangers and understand that x pays for y.

 

[nathanielfirst]

phenomenology helps with this - seperate your experience in a week into 30 minute segments and step back, look at the ethical/religious content of those objectively to see what pops out at you...

 

[nathanielfirst]

guess not...

 

[Witch9]

Sorry, but it's the musts that turn me off.

Among other things, too many people think their religion must be the only one that's right, to the point where some Christians denounce others as not being "real" Christians, Christians denounce Muslims, Muslims denounce Christians, . . .

my experience is, some kind of religion is what is going on in this universe

There are actually many kinds of religion going on. All of them created by humans. Moreover, Google's definitions of religion include:

• a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny
• an institution to express belief in a divine power;
• a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs
• any practice that someone or some group is seriously devoted to

The existence of a religion does not prove the existence of a deity.

IF you were pretty sure life were a test, you would be pretty certain that somewhere, THEN , there is a score that you recieve. so there must be some type of afterlife

Don't really follow any sequential logic here. Not all tests involve scores. And the process, if there is one, would not prove that there's an afterlife.

IF there is something close to karma/reward, THEN a deity must administer it/control it

Karma could be a process of natural consequences. There might not be anyone administering or controlling it.

for a good deed of giving directions to a stranger to be matched by being given directions as a stranger, someone must exist who is intelligent enough to see both sets of strangers and understand that x pays for y.

So, if you get lost and no one gives you directions, you MUST have done something wrong and are now paying for it?

Some people do what you might consider good things because they are inspired by their religions. Some do what you might consider bad things and say they are just living up to their religion's dogma. So, do you think the deity that must exist must want some people to behave badly?

I guess this deity must also be okay with people who don't follow a specific religion, too.




The Hebrews used to say that "God" is unknown and unknowable. People create religions because they cannot accept unanswerable questions, yet they accept the existence of a deity without answering questions about where that deity came from, who created them, who created those creators, . . .

I find it interesting that people can accept that God "just is" but not a possibility that the universe "just is".

 

[horizon_mj1]

what do people on this board think of using "natural theology" i.e. unbiased reasoning rather than scriptural traditions to study God(s)?

my experience is, some kind of religion is what is going on in this universe, and many of the religions out there cover the same material. they cover the same material, but they are very very different in what they are saying. not knowing which religion to adhere to as they are so different, but wanting to come to the truth because it is so important to me, take a piecemeal approach and test concept by concept mined from every religion to see if it is true. unlike science you are less certain about the things you 'discover' as there really is no good way to check this stuff that is so far above your grasp. but its so important you make do with the 10% probabilities that you do get...

I think this is really the only way to find true answers. Logic is something intertwined within all living creatures, humans being the best at using it (usually, but everyone makes mistakes). One piece of truth is better than a basket of falsities.

I used to hate religion as an atheist but then I took inventory of my life one day and found, that when you assume religion is the truth, your life snaps into focus, a sort of gestalt thing, like seeing a picture that's an old/ young woman. if you apply the things found in religious books to life, you find the religious concepts carrying forward/ working /moving in your life. and only religions, not philosophy, talk about these things, so you have to go to the religious traditions to find people writing about religious things.

If once again apply logic to religions as well as philosophies, you will find that at times they are interchangeable. Statistically speaking, when this happens, there is usually a truth.

concrete example: IF you were pretty sure life were a test, you would be pretty certain that somewhere, THEN , there is a score that you recieve. so there must be some type of afterlife - yet perhaps it is not a forever afterlife. or is forever. don't know.

Once again using a truth, you get the answer to there being some sort of afterlife; energy does not dissipate, it mutates or readjusts its activities; photons a pure form of energy are a good example of this.

another: IF there is something close to karma/reward, THEN a deity must administer it/control it -sorry Theraveda Buddhism- for a good deed of giving directions to a stranger to be matched by being given directions as a stranger, someone must exist who is intelligent enough to see both sets of strangers and understand that x pays for y.

Cause and effect is the simplest answer to this. An object in motion will remain in motion until an interaction (sorry can't remember exact wording); try to apply this to things in life. Maybe helping someone is what grants you a security in some area of life (this being equivalent in all deeds).

 

[horizon_mj1]

Sorry, but it's the musts that turn me off.Among other things, too many people think their religion must be the only one that's right, to the point where some Christians denounce others as not being "real" Christians, Christians denounce Muslims, Muslims denounce Christians, . . .

Where in the OP is any specific religion mentioned?

There are actually many kinds of religion going on. All of them created by humans. Moreover, Google's definitions of religion include:

• a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny
• an institution to express belief in a divine power;
• a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs
• any practice that someone or some group is seriously devoted to

The existence of a religion does not prove the existence of a deity.

Neither does it disprove anything, what is your point?

Don't really follow any sequential logic here. Not all tests involve scores. And the process, if there is one, would not prove that there's an afterlife.

All tests demand some sort of result. Did you ever hear of science?

Karma could be a process of natural consequences.

There might not be anyone administering or controlling it.

Who said anything about Karma?

So, if you get lost and no one gives you directions, you MUST have done something wrong and are now paying for it?

Who said anything "bad" happens if you do or do not do something? There is a possibility of cause and effect, after all the entire universe and everything in it works that way.

Some people do what you might consider good things because they are inspired by their religions. Some do what you might consider bad things and say they are just living up to their religion's dogma. So, do you think the deity that must exist must want some people to behave badly?

Well there is a thing called manners, and from the example given in the OP, I guess you could say falls in this category. "Good" and "bad" is instinctive if you have intervention with other people. This does not in any way have to be religious based (there are many atheist in which are "good" people).

I guess this deity must also be okay with people who don't follow a specific religion, too.

Maybe if this deity was as shallow and lacking in the knowledge department as most of humanity (if said deity exists).

The Hebrews used to say that "God" is unknown and unknowable. People create religions because they cannot accept unanswerable questions, yet they accept the existence of a deity without answering questions about where that deity came from, who created them, who created those creators, . . .

Once again, did you not read, or did you not understand the OP? You are the one who is taking examples from specific religions and deciding what to base your ***umptions on. Maybe this part should be directed on a thread about Hebrew beliefs; it is something maybe they could answer for you. Some people are happy not knowing; some people are happy thinking they know; some people look for the truth, but are disillusioned by what they think it should be; and some people seek the truth for and accept it for what it is.

I find it interesting that people can accept that God "just is" but not a possibility that the universe "just is".

Some people would rather know why instead of "just accepting". Does this make them wrong?

 

[Witch9]

my experience is, some kind of religion is what is going on in this universe . . .

Where in the OP is any specific religion mentioned?

Pardon me for being specific, rather than simply saying that frequently different religions promote different ideas and disagree with one another; I will have to consider the concept that examples and specifics create confusion.

Also . . .

Who said anything about Karma?

the OP

another: IF there is something close to karma/reward . . .

and

Some people would rather know why instead of "just accepting". Does this make them wrong?

Acceptance is not knowledge. There are many different beliefs - it's a personal thing - and they cannot all be right, unless there are multiple deities and not each of us lives by the grace of the same deities.

But, who said anything about deities?

IF there is something close to karma/reward, THEN a deity must administer it/control it

 

[horizon_mj1]

Yeah, your right about karma, Witch9. From what I have always heard of the belief in karma, it is the natural consequence of things. The deities in control of karma may be nothing more than what some call angels(?). The only reason I pointed out the religions you did mention, is because of their way of dealing with "alternate" perceptions that they deem unacceptable and according to them could not possibly be true.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

guess not...

Excellent guess.