My thoughts about why people say that Jesus is not God

[shunyadragon]

I definitely did not understand until I was saved, born again to new life in Christ. Then what I previously thought was nonsense became clear; Father, Son and Holy Spirit- One God / three eternal Persons.

OK this is what you believe, but you accurately described a polytheistic belief in God,

 

[jimb]

OK this is what you believe, but you accurately described a polytheistic belief in God,

This clearly shows that you don't understand the Trinity. It is not polytheism.

 

[InChrist]

OK this is what you believe, but you accurately described a polytheistic belief in God,

No, I don’t think it’s polytheism at all.

 

[shunyadragon]

No, I don’t think it’s polytheism at all.

Of course you do not that is what you believe.

 

[InChrist]

Of course you do not that is what you believe.

No, again.


“Pantheism has the same fatal flaws as atheism. If everything is God, to be God has lost all meaning and so nothing is God. The problems with polytheism are equally obvious. There is no real God who is in charge, so the many gods fight wars and steal one another's wives. There's no basis for morals, truth or peace in heaven or earth. Polytheism's basic problem is diversity without unity.”

“That God must have both unity and diversity is clear. The Allah of Islam and the Jehovah of Jehovah's Witnesses and Jews, for instance, is incomplete in himself, unable to experience love, fellowship and communion before creating beings with whom he could have these experiences. The Bible says that "God islove." But the God of Islam and Judaism could not be love in and of himself—for whom could he love when he was alone before creation?”

The Trinity

Many Christians are at a loss to understand, much less to defend, the "Trinity." Critics argue that that word is not even found in the Bible. To deal with that issue, we must begin with God,

www.thebereancall.org

 

[InChrist]

So the delusion got to you… how sad!! Better you had stayed innocent (or is it, ignorant) rather than adopt the fallacy.

Rather, the truth set me free.

 

[Soapy]

This clearly shows that you don't understand the Trinity. It is not polytheism.

What is Polytheism?

1. Do you believe that your deity (The one who is worshipped) is a ONE, and Only One, GOD?
2. Do you believe that your ONE, and Only One, God is a MULTIPLICITY OF PERSONS?
3. Or do you believe that your One, and only one, God expresses himself as a multiplicity of Persons at once or at different times separately?

 

[Soapy]

Rather, the truth set me free.

It would do if we’re the truth!! But happily, it isn’t the truth.

You go into a shop and pick up an item worth £4. You hand over a £10 note.

The shopkeeper hands you back a £6 note.
You are happy and leave the shop with the note and your goods.

 

[Niatero]

I don't think Jesus was meant to be "obeyed", but rather to be "believed." He was wise and good and worthy of emulation and adoration -- but not worship. He said himself he could do nothing without the Father, and those to come would do greater things than he.

I'm thinking that maybe I can talk to you about what I'm thinking about the history of Trinity doctrines. I'm thinking that it started with some practices of the earliest Christians that looked like worshipping a god:

1. Early Christians prayed directly to Jesus, treating him as a divine figure worthy of communication and supplication.
2. Christians composed hymns and songs that addressed Jesus in terms typically reserved for deity, praising his attributes and actions.
3. The invocation of Jesus' name in various contexts, such as in healing rituals or exorcisms, demonstrated a belief in his power and authority.
4. The rite of baptism, which symbolized initiation into the Christian faith, often involved invoking the name of Jesus and acknowledging him as Lord.
5. The communal meal or Eucharist celebrated by early Christians often included prayers and thanksgiving directed towards Jesus, recognizing his sacrificial death and resurrection.
6. Early Christian gatherings for worship often centered on the person of Jesus, with prayers, readings, and teachings focused on his life, teachings, and significance.
7. Christians would confess their faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior, sometimes even in the face of persecution or martyrdom.

Those examples are from the work of Larry Hurtado.

 

[Spice]

I'm thinking that maybe I can talk to you about what I'm thinking about the history of Trinity doctrines. I'm thinking that it started with some practices of the earliest Christians that looked like worshipping a god:

Those examples are from the work of Larry Hurtado.

It depends on how "early" you're talking about. Up until the disporia of 70 AD, the following of Jesus was a Jewish sect called The Way. With the start of the Jewish revolts, soon the only Jesus movement left intact was Paul's gentile infused churches. While the Apostles followers managed to salvage a little, like Mark's Copic Church in Alexandria, they too were soon swallowed up by the new "Christian" church. Several sects attempted to remain separate and true in the 2nd century, but they were doomed to be wiped out as heretics. Besides the Gnostic Christians, the leaders of these "heretics" were: Marcion, Valentinius, and Montanus.

 

[Niatero]

Here's what I'm saying now about the Trinity. In the New Testament, it looks to me like God counts worshipping Jesus and the Holy Spirit as worshipping Him. At the same time, I see God and Jesus talking to each other and about each other in a genuine way that looks like two separate persons. God doesn't explain how that is possible, and I don't agree with the way that any Trinity doctrines try to explain it. That doesn't mean to me that anyone who believes those doctrines is not really a Christian or is not really saved. I just don't agree with it, that's all.

 

[jimb]

Here's what I'm saying now about the Trinity. In the New Testament, it looks to me like God counts worshipping Jesus and the Holy Spirit as worshipping Him. At the same time, I see God and Jesus talking to each other and about each other in a genuine way that looks like two separate persons. God doesn't explain how that is possible, and I don't agree with the way that any Trinity doctrines try to explain it. That doesn't mean to me that anyone who believes those doctrines is not really a Christian or is not really saved. I just don't agree with it, that's all.

The trinity is not an easy concept to understand. My understanding is that "God" is composed of three parts: God ("the father"), who is spirit (unseen, invisible) (John 4:24), Jesus is the embodiment of that spirit and the person who created the world (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. (John 1:1-3a), and the Holy Spirit is that spiritual essence who is given to people and dwells in us (along with our body and mind). It makes us complete and capable of being in Christ.

 

[Niatero]

The trinity is not an easy concept to understand. My understanding is that "God" is composed of three parts: God ("the father"), who is spirit (unseen, invisible) (John 4:24), Jesus is the embodiment of that spirit and the person who created the world (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. (John 1:1-3a), and the Holy Spirit is that spiritual essence who is given to people and dwells in us (along with our body and mind). It makes us complete and capable of being in Christ.

My way of thinking now is that God counts worshipping Jesus and the Holy Spirit as worshipping Him, and the interpersonal relationships that we see between them in the gospels are real. I don't agree with anyone's explanation of how that can all be true, but I think it's okay with God if they don't use it to draw lines of alienation between themselves and others.

 

[Soapy]

My way of thinking now is that God counts worshipping Jesus and the Holy Spirit as worshipping Him, and the interpersonal relationships that we see between them in the gospels are real. I don't agree with anyone's explanation of how that can all be true, but I think it's okay with God if they don't use it to draw lines of alienation between themselves and others.

Almighty God, YHWH: The Father, does not approve of anyone of mankind worshipping His Spirit, (which isn’t even a person let alone [a] God) nor the Son of Man.

Jesus Christ, himself, says:

• “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and to Him only show sacred service.’” (Luke 4:8)

And:

• “Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.” (John 4:23)

In what way does this advocate worshipping the Spirit of God or the Son of God?

Are you, perhaps, confusing ‘Worship’ with ‘Praise, Honour, and Glorify’?

 

[jimb]

OK this is what you believe, but you accurately described a polytheistic belief in God,

It's obvious that you still don't "get it". Acceptance of the Trinity is not polytheism.

Mark 4:11-12, "He [Jesus] told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,

“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven! "

 

[shunyadragon]

It's obvious that you still don't "get it". Acceptance of the Trinity is not polytheism.

Mark 4:11-12, "He [Jesus] told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,

“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven! "

Specific citations from the NT have demonstrated that God the Father and God the Son are distinct and separate Gods.

Understanding in this case is the specific plain reading of the text cited.

 

[jimb]

Specific citations from the NT have demonstrated that God the Father and God the Son are distinct and separate Gods.

Understanding in this case is the specific plain reading of the text cited.

According to you perhaps, but you are wrong. God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all different manifestations of the one God.

Read post #75 again -- carefully and pay attention to what it clearly says about you.

 

[shunyadragon]

According to you perhaps, but you are wrong. God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all different manifestations of the one God.

Read post #75 again -- carefully and pay attention to what it clearly says about you.

Specific citations from the NT have demonstrated that God the Father and God the Son are distinct and separate Gods.

Understanding in this case is the specific plain reading of the text cited.

As Hebrews 10:12-13 notes, “But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.” Because Jesus reigns along with God the Father Almighty who created and rules over the world,

 

[jimb]

Specific citations from the NT have demonstrated that God the Father and God the Son are distinct and separate Gods.

Understanding in this case is the specific plain reading of the text cited.

As Hebrews 10:12-13 notes, “But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.” Because Jesus reigns along with God the Father Almighty who created and rules over the world,

Your lack of understanding doesn't affect the truth. There is one God. Period.

If you want to quote Scripture, fine...

THE FATHER AND I ARE ONE. (John 10:30)

WHOEVER HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER. (John 14:9a)

I AM IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IS IN ME. (John 14:10 and John 14:11b)

If you can't understand the last quotation you will never understand God's truth.

 

[Soapy]

Your lack of understanding doesn't affect the truth. There is one God. Period.

If you want to quote Scripture, fine...

THE FATHER AND I ARE ONE. (John 10:30)

WHOEVER HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER. (John 14:9a)

I AM IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IS IN ME. (John 14:10 and John 14:11b)

If you can't understand the last quotation you will never understand God's truth.

In what way are Jesus and the Father ‘One’?

Is God a man like Jesus?

Is the Father a man like Jesus?

Does the Father sit at the right hand of God?

Was the Father anointed by the Spirit of God like Jesus was?

What does the Father do that Jesus doesn’t do?

Why is the Spirit of the Father (The Spirit of God) given to Jesus to make him ‘Christ’, but it’s not given to the Father nor the Holy Spirit?

What does the spirit of God do that Jesus doesn’t do?

I’m asking since you say they are all the same one God yet there are many many many differences: Are you providing a new definition of THE SAME?