a) My post was in response to Niatero's comment on the Trinity triangle.
b) It's not important to me if many believers do not believe as I do. I believe what the Bible clearly says, i.e., there is a Trinity Godhead.
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My thoughts about why people say that Jesus is not God
- Thread starter Niatero
- Start date
b) It's not important to me if many believers do not believe as I do. I believe what the Bible clearly says, i.e., there is a Trinity Godhead.
a) Your first sentence is correct.
b) Your second sentence is also correct, but must be interpreted correctly. Because believers are the body of Christ, we share the Divine nature, but that doesn't make us gods. Reading your second paragraph, it seems that you do understand this.
c) Your third paragraph shows that you don't understand the Godhead.
So, which is it?
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
I might as well stir the pot -- and YES, I'm a Christian Heretic -- If Jesus was God, and not merely a man filled with the Holy Spirit, we have been gypped!
Of course God can live a perfect human life if He chooses to do so. But a "Son of God"? A man who lives for God's will as a mere human who succeeds at being pure of heart -- to the end? That is the miracle and story of Jesus!
In Jesus' prayer to the Father in John 17, he is making requests for his disciples and all who have, and will, believe him. Notice the connections:
"20 I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—23 I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me."
And let's go back to what he tells the disciples about themselves going forward in chapter 14
"12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes [in] me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do."
Jesus proved with his life and his final resurrection, than we can be immersed in God and God in us, as was he, the first son to make it home. If he were God Himself, we lose that greatness? We diminish the HOPE.
How can "we" do greater works than God the Father? We can't! But "we", the future of mankind can, and have, done greater works than Jesus. And those that hold that pure heart to the end will go home where he has made a place for us.
Of course God can live a perfect human life if He chooses to do so. But a "Son of God"? A man who lives for God's will as a mere human who succeeds at being pure of heart -- to the end? That is the miracle and story of Jesus!
In Jesus' prayer to the Father in John 17, he is making requests for his disciples and all who have, and will, believe him. Notice the connections:
"20 I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—23 I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me."
And let's go back to what he tells the disciples about themselves going forward in chapter 14
"12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes [in] me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do."
Jesus proved with his life and his final resurrection, than we can be immersed in God and God in us, as was he, the first son to make it home. If he were God Himself, we lose that greatness? We diminish the HOPE.
How can "we" do greater works than God the Father? We can't! But "we", the future of mankind can, and have, done greater works than Jesus. And those that hold that pure heart to the end will go home where he has made a place for us.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
You do realise that the :
- “the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit; the Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is not the Son nor the Father.”
The true diagram is like this:
God (YHWH: The Father) —<— the Spirit of God
|
^
|
Jesus Christ (a Sinless man glorified by God)
|
^
|
Sinful Mankind (The Elect who reign with Jesus)
|
^
|
Sinful Mankind (The masses on Paradise earth)
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Huh???!!
amazing grace
Active Member
I am taking this to mean the first paragraph? Thank you.
My second paragraph is also correct- yet must be interpreted correctly? How is it correct if I did not interpret it correctly?
Correct we, as born again believers, are baptized into the one body of Christ and as such we are partakers of the divine nature. I know that it does not make us God.
You totally missed my point. . . Point being - for most trinitarians John 10:30 is one of the go to verses they use to prove Jesus is God.
What is your definition for "godhead"? From my understanding of the word "godhead", it is a translation of the Greek word theotes and in "A Greek English Lexicon" by Liddell and Scott, it means "divinity, divine nature".
For he (Jesus) whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he (God) gives the spirit without measure (John 3:34 ESV) making Jesus filled with the fulness of God. - The fact that Christ has “all the fullness” of God does not make him God. Ephesians 3:19 says that Christians should be filled with “all the fullness of God,” and no one believes that would make each Christian God. Anyway, nothing in my third paragraph was contrary to scripture.
amazing grace
Active Member
I was only using the diagram as an example of Trinitarian theology/doctrine.
The question of the existence of God or Gods is an interesting question that preoccupies too many minds and debates. The question is too subjective to make absolute statements as to what or who God or Gods is or even exists.
The New Testament is an edited and redacted set of documents compiled likely by Hellenist Jews. The concept of anthropomorphic and polytheistic Trinitarian Gods is in contradiction with the Torah,
I do not believe in anthropomorphic Gods exist as described in various ancient religions and interpretations of ancient scripture, but the existence God or Gods is indeed an open question. Almost everyone that argues for or against the existence of God or Gods or the nature of Gods approach ifrom and agenda based of belief or non-belief.
It reminds me of the discussion whether Buddha believed in God or Gods, Buddha wrote of Gods in a world of the belief in Gods. Most of the different positions agued from the perspective of what they believe, Buddha's writings are not specific as to whether Gods exist or not.
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Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
It wasn’t a criticism… I refute the use of that ‘God-awful’ diagram as it blindly rubber-stamps the trinity fallacy in that, though it may be what trinity defines itself as, it is no less an unfathomable claim that contains pointless elements : ‘The Father is not the Son… etc.’, and impossible relationships: ‘The Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God’.
Ask a trinitarian then, “Who is GOD”… Is God a person? How did GOD fill Jesus with the fullness of God if Jesus is already GOD??
Trinitarians cannot and will not answer with anything of truth in regard to their ideology (If God is a person then how are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ALSO persons? … Thinknof all the permutations of One being IN the Other…
It makes an unfathomable convolution which goes against everything scriptures tells us about God: God is not a God of mystery but one who yearns to make himself known to his servants - which is what Jesus came to reveal : the Testament that GOD GAVE TO Jesus to give to mankind : Rev 1:1.
Why would Jesus come to reveal the Father only, if he came to reveal GOD? Why didn’t he come to reveal the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as well? If all three are God, then…Why only the Father???
Sorry, but that’s what I meant.
Bizarre and incomprehensible to say the least. A silly diagram does not resolve the contorted contradictory problems with the Trinity.
Niatero
*banned*
It does for me.
Does what?
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
That is brilliant…. Thanks for posting that.
Niatero, I’m not sure about your thought process as one moment you post FOR trinity, and the next you post AGAINST trinity.
That modified diagram showed exactly the absurdity of the trinity claim yet you appear argue against Shunydragon who just upvoted the claim that the diagram shows the absurdity!!!!??
‘Happy’ is an ADJECTIVE…. The original word is ‘God’… which is also an ADJECTIVE (as well as a VERB) so they are, sentence-wise, acceptable exchanges which underlined the fact that there cannot be a legitimate claim of:
- ‘The Father is GOD’
- ‘The Son is GOD’
- ‘The Holy Spirit is GOD’
- ‘The Father is Almighty’
- ‘The Son is Almighty’
- ‘The Holy Spirit is Almighty’
The three might be almighty (‘Is God’ as the verb!!) in a contextual setting - but they cannot be THE SAME Almighty in the SAME setting!!
What would there be for THREE persons to EQUALLY ALMIGHTY… common sense and reality says that ONLY ONE ALMIGHTY exists since that one almighty can do ALL THINGS!
And, we know that this ONE ALMIGHTY is ….The Father!!
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Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Just a thought - I think that in a Christian or Jewish debate, the question of the existence (or not) of the concept of a God, has no place. I’ve seen whole debates about this but from ATHEISTS and Agnostics … but in a straight out Christian/Jewish thread… nothing at all: the belief is in God, even if the trinity claim is of ‘three persons as that One God’, or like Oneness Pentecostals / Apostolics, ‘One God in three persons’ (I don’t see the difference, myself!)
That is not the difference as you describe. The difference is the various versions of one God in three persons and those that reject the Trinity.
The different beliefs between Trinitarian Christians and non-Trinitarian Christians, Jews, Muslims and Baha'is who believe in the unity of God
I see debates among Christians between those that believe in some sort version of the Trinity and those that reject the Trinity, and do not consider Jesus Christ God incarnate.
I do believe in the unty of the unknowable undefinable God, and reject the many versions of the Trinity as polytheism.
Nontrinitarianism - Wikipedia
In terms of number of adherents, nontrinitarian denominations comprise a small minority of modern Christians. After the denominations in the Oneness Pentecostal movement, the largest nontrinitarian Christian denominations are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo, and Iglesia ni Cristo. There are a number of other smaller groups, including Christadelphians, Church of the Blessed Hope, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, Living Church of God, Assemblies of Yahweh, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Christians, Unitarian Universalist Christians, The Way International, the Philadelphia Church of God, The Church of God International, the United Church of God, Church of God General Conference, Restored Church of God, Christian Disciples Church, and Church of God of the Faith of Abraham.[6]
Nontrinitarian views differ widely on the nature of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Various nontrinitarian philosophies, such as adoptionism and monarchianism existed prior to the codification of the Trinity doctrine in AD 325, 381, and 431, at the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and Ephesus.[7] Nontrinitarianism was later renewed by Cathars in the 11th through 13th centuries, in the Unitarian movement during the Protestant Reformation, in the Age of Enlightenment of the 18th century, and in some groups arising during the Second Great Awakening of the 19th century. [citation needed]
The doctrine of the Trinity, as held in mainstream Christianity, is not present in the other major monotheistic Abrahamic religions.
Also . . .
Jewish views on Jesus - Wikipedia
Jewish theology
Oneness and indivisibility of God
See also: God in Judaism, Godhead in Judaism, Shema Yisrael, and ****ufIn Judaism, the idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical — it is even considered by some polytheistic.[8] According to Judaic beliefs, the Torah rules out a trinitarian God in Deuteronomy (6:4): "Hear Israel, the LORD is our God, the LORD is one."
Judaism teaches that it is heretical for any man to claim to be God, part of God, or the literal son of God. The Jerusalem Talmud states explicitly: "if a man claims to be God, he is a liar."[9]
Paul Johnson, in his book A History of the Jews, describes the schism between Jews and Christians caused by a divergence from this principle:
Note foolish anal editing of the word ****uf by Wiki.
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Niatero
*banned*
This is what triggered my thread about the teachings of the Trinitarian churches:
I didn't see anyone objecting to that. That's why I started the thread about the teachings of the Trinitarian churches.
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