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Featured Most Sufis use to Twelvers (pre-colonialism)

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Link, Jun 27, 2021.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    To give an example of what their old leaders use to say about the family of Mohammad (s):

    And there is another way close to the spiritual sovereignty and this is the way of the saints and the general friends of Allāh, and this way is marked by its characteristic passion and it carries the guarantee of mediation and the leader and chieftain of the saints of this way is ‘Alī alMurtadā (الكریم وجھھ تعالى االله كرم .(And this grand office is reserved for him. On this way, the feet of the Holy Prophet () are on ‘Alī’s head and Fātimah and Hasan and Husayn () are included with him. I believe that he enjoyed this position even before his physical birth , as he did after it, and whoso ever has received the divine blessing and guidance, has received it through him, because he is closest to the last point on this way and the centre of this spot belongs to him. And when his period ended , the grand office passed on to Hasan and Husayn (عنھما تعالى االله رضي )and then on to each one of the twelve Imāms, individually and elaborately. And whosoever received guidance in their life and after their death , received it through these saints. And the refuge and place of shelter of the saints of high ranks are these saints, (because they are the centre of all spiritual activity) and the sides tend to converge on the centre.

    Shaykh Ahmad Sarhandī (971-1034/1564-1624), is quoted right here: www.MinhajBooks.com

    I am going to showing Rumi believed in the Twelve Imams (a) as well. So did Ibn Arabi and other famous Sufi past scholars.

    Then I will talk about how all this changed by gunpoint and force.
     
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  2. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    As for Rumi, this is poem he did about the Twelve Imams (a).

    ای شاه شاهان جهان الله، مولانا علی
    ای نور چشم عاشقان الله، مولانا علی

    حمد است گفتن نام تو ای نور فرخ نام تو
    خورشید و مه هندوی تو الله، مولانا علی

    خورشید مشرق خاوری در بندگی بسته کمر
    ماهت غلام نیک پی الله، مولانا علی

    خورشید باشد ذره‌ای از خاکدان کوی تو
    دریای عمان شبنمی الله، مولانا علی

    موسی عمران در غمت بنشسته بد در کوه طور
    داود می‌خواندت زبور الله، مولانا علی

    آدم که نور عالم است عیسی که پور مریم است
    در کوی عشقت در هم است الله، مولانا علی

    داود را آهن چو موم قدرست نموده کردگار
    زیرا به دل اقرار کرد الله، مولانا علی

    آن نور چشم انبیا احمد که بد بدر دجا
    می‌گفت در قرب دنا الله، مولانا علی

    قاضی و شیخ و محتسب دارد به دل بغض علی
    هر سه شدند از دین بری الله، مولانا علی

    گر مقتدای جاهلی کردست در دین جاهلی
    تو مقتدای کاملی الله، مولانا علی

    شاهم علی مرتضی بعدش حسن نجم سما
    خوانم حسین کربلا الله، مولانا علی

    آن آدم آل عبا دانم علی زین العباد
    هم باقر و صادق گوا الله، مولانا علی

    موسی کاظم هفتمین باشد امام و رهنما
    گوید علی موسی الرضا الله، مولانا علی

    سوی تقی آی و نقی در مهر او عهدی بخوان
    با عسکری رازی بگو الله، مولانا علی

    مهدی سوار آخرین بر خصم بگشاید کمین
    خارج رود زیر زمین الله، مولانا علی

    تخم خوارج در جهان ناچیز و ناپیدا شود
    آن شاه چون بیدار شود الله، مولانا علی

    دیو و پری و اهرمن، اولاد آدم مرد و زن
    دارند این سر در دهن الله، مولانا علی

    اقرار کن اظهار کن مولای رومی این سخن
    هر لحظه سر من لدن الله، مولانا علی

    ای شمس تبریزی بیا بر ما مکن جور و جفا
    رخ را به مولانا نما الله، مولانا علی



    Some Shiites these days are trying to say by these type of words about Twelve Imams and the fact he shrouding himself with the name of Mohammad (S), Fatima (a) and 12 Imams (a) on his coffin, he was Shiite, but the truth is most Sunnis were Sufis, and most Sufis were Twelvers.

    We cannot fathom their creed now, because, it's been largely lost. But Sufis believed there was a difference between political authority and spiritual authority, while Shiites saw it as one, Sufis did not.They believed political authority should be by consultation, but that spiritual authority as in the Qutb (pole) position of Ali (a) is chosen by God. I will be going through lengths that this almost unanimous among old Sufi scholars/saints.
     
  3. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    And some making it as if these Sufi saints were doing Taqiya and actually are Shiites, but that could go both ways. The truth is better to acknowledge their creed for what they said it is, then accuse them of lying and hiding truth when it would only confuse people at this point.
     
  4. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Translating the end of the poem by google translate since in names the 12 Imams (a):


    The king Ali the pleased (murtatha), then Hassan the star of the sky
    I read Hussein the place of affliction of Allah, Maulana Ali

    I know that person from Al-Abba, Ali the Adornment of the Worshipers (4th Imam Zainal Abideen)
    Both the cleaver of knowledge (Al-Baqir 5th Imam) and truthful of God (Sadiq - 6th Imam), Maulana Ali


    Musa The calm (Al-Kathim) is the seventh Imam and guide
    Says Ali Musa is God's pleased one (Ar-Reda 8th Imam), Maulana Ali

    Sing a vow to the Guarding (Al-Taqi 9th Imam) ay and Pure (Naqi) in his love (10th Imam)
    Say Allah with the military one (Askari 11th Imam) pleased, Maulana Ali

    Mehdi (12th Imam) rides the last ambush on the enemy
    Out of the underground river of God, Maulana Ali

    Kharijite eggs become insignificant and invisible in the world
    When that king wakes up, Allah, Maulana Ali

    Demons and fairies and demons, the offspring of man and woman
    They have this head in the mouth of God, Maulana Ali

    Confess and say this to the Roman master
    Every moment my head is full of God, Maulana Ali

    O Shams Tabrizi, come and do not persecute us
    Face to Maulana blessing of Allah, Maulana Ali

    This is from Rumi
     
  5. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Over all on Ali (a) in his works which shows Ali (a) was superior in his view then all companions of Mohammad (s):

    1) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘AMIR AL-MUMININ – COMMANDER OF THE FAITHFUL – TRANSLATED BY NICHOLSON AS PRINCE OF THE FAITHFUL’ – in the story titled Imam ‘Ali.
    See Book One, heading after verse 3720.

    2) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE ONE WHO ACTS SINCERELY’ –‘Learn how to act sincerely from ‘Ali’.
    Book One, verse 3721 (first part).

    3) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali u as, ‘THE LION OF Allah’ – ‘Know that the lion of Allah (‘Ali ) was purged of all deceit’.
    Book One, verse 3721 (second part).

    4) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali u as, ‘THE PRIDE OF EVERY PROPHET’ –‘Ali, the pride of every Prophet’.
    Book One, verse 3723.

    5) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE PRIDE OF EVERY SAINT’ – ‘Ali the pride of every Prophet and every saint.’
    Book One, verse 3723.

    6) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE FACE BEFORE WHICH THE MOON BOWS LOW’ – ‘He spat on the countenance before which the face of the moon bows low in the place of worship.’
    Book One, verse 3724.

    7) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE LION OF THE LORD’ – ‘In bravery you are the lion of the Lord: in generosity who indeed knows who you are?’
    Book One, verse 3732.

    8.) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘ALL MIND AND EYE’ – ‘O ‘Ali you who are all mind and eye, relate a little of that which you have seen.’
    Book One, verse 3745.

    9) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘FALCON OF THE EMPYREAN’ – ‘Tell, O falcon of the empyrean that finds goodly prey, what you have seen at this time from the Maker.’
    Book One, verse 3750.

    10) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE LEARNED WHO PERCEIVES THE UNSEEN’ – ‘Your eyes have learned to perceive the unseen while the eyes of the bystanders are sealed.’
    Book One verse 3751.

    11) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali u as, ‘THE ONE WHO IS APPROVED BY Allah’ – ‘Reveal the mystery O ‘Ali you who is approved by Allah.’
    Book One, verse 3751 (part 1).

    12 Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as being, ‘GOODLY EASE’ – ‘O you who are a goodly ease after evil fate.’
    Book One, verse 3752.

    13) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘ORB OF THE MOON (WILAYAH QAMARIYYAH)’ – ‘From you it shone forth on me, how could you conceal it? Without tongue you are darting rays of light, like the moon. But if the moonsorb come to speech, it more quickly leads the night-travellers the (right) way. They become safe from error and heedlessness: the voice of the moon prevails over the voice of the ghoul.’
    Book One, verse 3759-3761.

    14) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali u as, ‘LIGHT UPON LIGHT’ – ‘In as much as the moon (even) without speech shows the way, when it speaks it becomes light upon light,’
    Book One, verse 3762.

    15) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘GATE OF THE CITY OF KNOWLEDGE (‘Ali GATE OF WILAYAH MUHAMMADIYYAH)’ – ‘Since you are the Gate of the City of Knowledge, since you are the beams of the sun of clemency (Prophet Muhammad ).’
    Book One verse 3763.
    This verse refers to the Prophet Muhammad saying, ‘I am the City of Knowledge and ‘Ali is its gate, so anyone who seeks knowledge should enter through its gate.’

    16) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘GATE OF MERCY’ – ‘Remain open forever.’
    Book One, verse 3765 (part one).

    17) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘ENTRANCE-HALL TO ‘NONE IS LIKE UNTO HIM.’
    Book One, verse 3765.
    This is a reference to Surah Ikhlas – Qur’an 112.

    18) Rumi refers to Imam ¡Ali u as, ‘THE SUN OF WILAYAH’ – ‘Speak, O Prince of the faithful, that my soul may stir within my body like an embryo. How has the embryo the means (to stir) during the period when it is ruled (by
    the stars)? It comes (turns) from the stars towards the sun. When the time comes for the embryo to receive the (vital) spirit, at that time the sun becomes its helper.
    Book One, verses 3773-5.

    These verses refer to the Ahl al-Bayt’s Wilayah Qamariyyah being within the Wilayah Shamsiyyah of the Prophet Muhammad . Here Rumi clari fies that those who hold general or stellar Wilayah – Wilayah ‘Ammah / Wilayah Najmiyyah are merely stars in comparison to ‘Ali who, being like the sun, represents the Perfect Man or perfect shaykh. Thus, while those who hold Wilayah ‘Ammah may aid a ‘Searcher for Truth’ – Salik, complete guidance is only obtainable via those who hold Wilayah Shamsiyyah – a reference to Imam ‘Ali and his successors. Here Rumi presents the three types of Wilayah described in the introduction – Wilayah Shamsiyyah and Wilayah Qamariyyah –aspects of Specific Wilayah – Wilayah Khassah, and Wilayah ‘Ammah, that is also referred to as Stellar Wilayah – Wilayah Najmiyyah. These may be considered Advanced and Element ary levels of Wilayah.

    19) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as ‘HOLDER OF SOLAR WILAYAH – WILAYAH SHAMSIYYAH’ – ‘When the time comes for the embryo to receive the (vital) spirit, at that time the sun becomes its helper. This embryo is brought into movement by the sun, for the sun quickly endows it with ‘spirit’. ‘
    Book One, verses 3775-3776.
    On the spiritual journey towards Allah, the embryo – Spiritual Seeker – Salik, obedient to Wilayah Allawiyyah, arrives at her/his destination.

    20) Rumi refers to all Spiritual Seekers having, if they are aware of it not, an inherent connection with Wilayah Allawiyyah, that is, the Wilayah Shamsiyyah of Imam ‘Ali – ‘By the hidden way that is remote from our senses-perception, the sun in the heavens has many ways,’
    Book One, verse 3779.
    It is via that inherent connection, with the Wilayah Shamsiyyah of ‘Ali, that exists beyond the physical senses, that the Spiritual Seeker is able to develop.

    21) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as ‘THE ROUTE OF SPIRITUAL GUIDANCE – WILAYAH’, – ‘And the way whereby it makes the Ruby red and the way whereby it gives the lightening-flash to the (iron) horse shoe. And the way whereby it ripens the fruit, and the way whereby it gives heart to one who is distraught.’
    Book One verse 3781-82.
    These verses refer to Qur’an 100 – Surah Al-‘adiyat that was revealed to illuminate the status of Imam ‘Ali.

    22) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘A FALCON WITH SHINING WINGS’ –‘Say it O falcon with shining wings,’
    Book One verse, 3783 (part one).

    23) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE ONE WHO LEARNED FROM AND BECAME FAMILIAR WITH THE TRUE KING OF THE UNIVERSE’ – ‘Who has learned from the King and His fore arm.’
    Book One, verse 3783 (part two).

    24) Rumi refers to Imam Ali as, ‘ROYAL FALCON OF Allah WHO CATCHES THE ANGA.’ – ‘Say it, O Royal falcon who catches the Anga, O you who vanquished an army all by yourself.’
    Book One, verse 3784.

    25) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE ONE NATION OF HUMANITY’ –‘You alone are the (entire community) you are one and a hundred thousand. Say it O you to whose falcon your slave has fallen prey’.
    Book One, verse 3785.
    This verse refers to an ayah of the Qur’an in which Allah tells us that all people are ‘a single nation’ Qur’an 2:213. While all have the potential, only some actually follow the Wilayah of ‘Ali , the one who is obedient to Allah.

    26) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE SERVANT OF Allah’ – ‘He said I am wielding my sword for Allah’s sake. I am the servant of Allah; I am not under the command ofthe body.’
    Book One verse 3787.

    27) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE LION OF Allah’ – ‘I am the lion of Allah, not the lion of my passions.’
    Book One, verse 3788 (part one).

    28) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘HE WHOSE DEED WITNESSES HIS RELIGION’ – ‘My deed bears witness to my religion.’
    Book One verse 3787 (part two).

    29) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE MANIFESTATION OF THE WILL OF Allah’ – ‘In war I am the manifestation of the truth of “ It was not you who threw when you threw”: but the sword and the wielder is the (Divine) Sun.’
    Book One, verse 3789.
    This is a reference to Qur’an 8:17.

    30) Rumi refers to Imam ¡Ali u as, ‘ANNIHILATED IN Allah’ – ‘I have removed the baggage of “ self” out of the way.’
    Book One, verse 3790 (part one).

    31) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE ONE WHOSE TAWHID IS “ESSENTIAL” TAWHID’ – ‘I have deemed (what is) other than Allah to be non-existent.’
    Book One, verse 3790 (part two).

    32) Rumi refers to Imam ¡Ali u as, ‘SHADOW OF THE DIVINE’ – ‘I am a shadow, the Sun is my Lord.’
    Book One, verse 3791 (part one).
    Ali’s Wilayah is from Allah.

    33) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE CHAMBERLAIN OF Allah’ – ‘I am the chamberlain, not the curtain (that prevents approach) to Him.’
    Book One verse 3791 (part two).
    ‘Ali’s function is to guide people to Allah.

    34) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘FILLED WITH THE PEARLS OF UNION WITH Allah’ – ‘I am filled with the pearls of union like a (jewelled) sword.’
    Book One verse 3792 (part one).

    35) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE REVIVER OF SPIRITUAL LIFE’ –‘In battle I revive but do not kill people.’
    Book One, verse 3792 (part two).

    36) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘ADVANCER OF LEVELS OF SPIRITUAL ESSENCE AND DIVINE MORALITY’ – ‘Blood does not cover the sheen of my sword: how should the wind sweep away my clouds?
    Book One verse 3793.

    The great commentator of Rumi’s Mathnawi, Akbar Abadi said that ‘Sword and clouds here refer to the advanced level of the Spiritual Essence of ¡Ali u – wind refers to negative morality (Akhlaq Nafsani) and the sheen of the sword to Divine Morality. Clear reference that negative attributes do not impinge upon the perfected attributes of ‘Ali u.’ See Akbar Abadi, Sharh Mathnawi, Book 1. P. 307.

    37) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘MOUNTAIN OF FORBEARANCE, PATIENCE AND JUSTICE’ – ‘I am not a straw, I am a mountain of forbearance, patience and justice: how should the fierce wind carry off the mountain?’
    Book One, verse 3794.

    38) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘Allah’S BUILDING BEING THE BEING OF ‘ALI ’ – ‘I am a mountain and my being is His building. If I become like a straw, my wind (that which moves me) is the recollection of Him.’
    Book One, verse 3797.

    39) In reference to Imam ‘Ali , Rumi writes, ¡HIS COMMANDER IS ‘LOVE OF Allah’ – ‘My longing is not stirred save by His wind; my captain is naught but Love of the One.’
    Book One, verse 3798.

    40) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘REPRESSOR OF ANGER’ – ‘Anger, king over kings is to me but a slave: even anger I have bound under the bridle.’
    Book One, verse 3799.

    41) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘IMMERSED IN THE LIGHT OF Allah’ – ‘I am immersed in the light although my roof is ruined.’
    Book One, verse 3801 (part one).

    42) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘A DIVINE GARDEN’ – ‘I have become a gardenalthough I am (styled) Father of Dust – Bu Turab.’
    Book One, verse 3801 (part two).
    This verse refers to the hadith in which the Prophet titled ‘Ali; Abu Turab.

    43) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘LOVER OF Allah’ – ‘That my name may be ‘He Loves for the sake of Allah.’ That my desire may be ‘He hates for the sake of Allah’
    Book One,verse 3803.
     
  6. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    44) Rumi refers to the manifestation of ‘Ali’s ‘generosity’ as, ‘GIVING FOR Allah’ – ‘Thatmy generosity may be ‘He gives for the sake of Allah’
    Book One verse 3804 (part one).

    45) Rumi refers to the mani festation of ‘Ali’s ‘withholding’ as, ‘WITHHOLDING FOR THE SAKE OF Allah’ – ‘That my being may be “He withholds for Allah’s sake” ’.
    Book One, verse 3804 (part two).
    Verses 3803 and 4 refer to a hadith, ‘The faith of any who give for the sake of Allah or withhold for the sake of Allah or love for Allah or hate or marry for Allah, will attain perfection.’ Foruzanfar, Ahadith Mathnawi, P.37, Tehran 1361.

    46) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘BELONGING ENTIRELY TO Allah’ – ‘I belong entirely to Allah, I do not belong to any other.’
    Book One, verse 3805 (part two).
    The will and being of Imam ‘Ali is circumscribed by the Will and Existence of Allah.

    47) In reference to Imam Ali Rumi writes, ‘ALI’S ACTIONS ARE FOR Allah ALONE DRAWN FROM HIS u ILLUMINATED KNOWLEDGE OF Allah’ – ‘And that which I do for Allah’s sake is (not done in) conformity, it is not fancy or opinion, it is naught but intuition.’
    Book One, verse 3806.
    ‘Ali’s knowledge is intuitive rather than theoretical.

    48) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘ATTACHED TO Allah ALONE’ – ‘I have been freed from effort and search, I have tied my sleeve to the skirt of Allah.’
    Book One verse 3807.

    49) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘SEEING Allah EVERYWHERE’ – ‘If I am flying, I behold the place to which I soar; and if I am circling, I behold the axis on which I revolve.’
    Book One verse 3808.

    50) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE HOLDER OF LUNAR AND SOLAR WILAYAH, WILAYAH QAMARIYYAH AND WILAYAH SHAMSIYYAH’ – ‘I am the moon and the sun is before me as my guide.’
    Book One, verse 3809 (part two).

    51) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘GATE OF DIVINE KNOWLEDGE’ –‘Come in! I will open the door for you.’
    Book One verse 3841.

    52) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘GRANTING ETERNAL TREASURE TO HIS FOLLOWERS’ – ‘What then do I bestow on the doer of righteousness? Know you, I bestow treasures and kingdoms everlasting.’
    Book One verse 3843.

    53) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘MASTER OF THE SPIRIT’ – ‘But do not grieve: I am intercessor for you: I am the spirit’s master, I am not the body’s slave.’
    Book One, verse 3942.

    54) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘Sun of The Noble’ – ‘This body has no value in my sight: without my body I am the noble (in spirit) the sun of the spirit.’
    Book One verse 3943.

    55) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE GUIDANCE OF KINGS’ –‘Outwardly he strives aft er power and authority, but (only) that he may show princes the right way and judgement. That he may another spirit to the Princedom; that he may give fruit to the palm tree of the Caliphate.’
    Book One, verse 3946-47.

    56) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE DIVINE BALANCE’ – ‘You have really been the balance with the just nature of the One (Allah).
    Book One, verse 3981 (part one).

    57) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘The Balance By Which To Weigh Other Saints’ – ‘Nay, you have been the pivot of every balance.’
    Book One, verse 3981 (part two).

    58) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE ILLUMINATION OF ¡HIS WILAYAH IS THE LIGHT OF Allah’S WILAYAH’ – ‘I am the slave of that eye-seeking lamp from which the lamp receives its splendour.’
    Book One, verse 3984.

    59) Rumi refers to Imam ‘Ali as, ‘THE PEARL OF Allah’S OCEAN OF LIGHT’ – ‘I am the slave of the billow of that Sea of Light that brings a pearl like this into view.’
    Book One verse 3985.

    60) Rumi refers to Imam Hussein as, ‘KING OF RELIGION, ROYAL AND PURE SPIRIT’ – ‘A royal spirit escaped from a prison; why should we rend our garments and how should we gnaw our hands. Since they (Hussein and his family) were Kings of the (true) religion, it was the hour of joy for them when they broke their bounds.’
    Book Six verse 797-8.
     
  7. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Before going on to show this to be the creed of most past Sufi scholars. I want to say something about why they would have this creed.

    (1) There are numerous Sunni hadiths designating Ali (a) as successor to Mohammad (s) and Sufis instead of denying them or interpreting them the way Sunnis do now, said, it means Spiritual Authority and successorship to the Spiritual Pole position of Mohammad (s) which is chosen by God.
    (2) Numerous Sunni hadiths passing this designation to Hassan (a) and Hussain (a) as well as praising Fatima (s) as the best woman in the universe.
    (3) Hadithal thaqalayn was well known in the past and there was no dispute that Prophet (s) emphasized on holding to Quran and his family for guidance and as his legacy. The murkiness is only in this century by dishonest e-scholars.
    (4) Some Sufis collected hadiths in Sunni sources (Sunni Sufi) about the birth of the 12th Imam (a) and believed in what Hassan Al-Askari (a) said. This is less known this century, but I will be showing this to be the case.
    (5) The Twelve Successors - their number is found in many Sunni hadiths.

    The result, is they came with a synthesis religion, where they still praise Abu Bakr and Umar, but have a different understanding of Ali (A) and Ahlulbayt (a) position spiritually then what most Sunnis do today.

    Most Sufis were in fact Twelvers in the past for these reasons. With the pressure of Wahabis to hate Shiites, and them killing so many Sufis in Saudi Arabia (Wahabi original conquest of the area) and other pressures Sufi twelvers faced from neo-colonialism, their faith is becoming largely unknown, despite this once upon a time being the majority Sunni view.

    The other thing is this allowed them to study Shiite hadiths which was more spiritual in nature then Sunni hadiths but allowed them to interpret all the Shiite hadiths under the synthesis religion, that it was not about political authority but spiritual leadership.
     
    #7 Link, Jun 27, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2021
  8. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    So you're preaching only to those who know Arabic.
     
  9. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    This in farsi with nicknames of Imams (A) in Arabic, I translated it after (the relevant part).. see the posts after.
     
  10. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    @sun rise

    This is the translation of the relevant part, I can do whole poem if you want.


     
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  11. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    al Hallaj was murdered in Persia by fanatics of the day (who were presumably Shi'a).

    Most of the Chisti orders of Sufism in India and elsewhere is aligned with Sunnis although tracing their lineage through Ali.
     
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  12. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Yes you are right on both accounts but the Sufi orders in the past, like Rumi's all believed in the 12 Imams (a) not just as spiritual leaders like their order leaders, but that they were appointed by God and held the highest pole. In fact, Sufi Sunnis have more authentic chains - from Hassan Al-askari (a) about the birth of 12th Imam (a) as the Mahdi, then Shiites have. Shiites have a lot of chains numbering the 12 Imams and naming them true, but not a lot directly from Hassan Al-askari (A) about his son being born. We have some, not a lot. But Sufis have quite a bit chains from Hassan Al-askari (A) about his son Mohammad Al-Mahdi (a).
     
  13. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Literally, even Sufis shy away from their true Twelver history today, by how much hate we receive from propaganda.
     
  14. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    One of the most people ironically to defend Hallaj is Khomeini (q). And he (Khomeini) is hated by a lot of fanatic Shiites for that as well.
     
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  15. Seeker of White Light

    Seeker of White Light Veteran Member

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    I think it is not wise to put every sufi under the same view as you just did here Link.
    Personally i do not hold anything against Twelvers or the 12 imams, but as a follower of Naksibendi sufi order that is the main focus of the practice. You will find sufis within Sunni, Shia, Twelver and any other muslim order.

    And yes within every muslim path you will find those who make critique of other muslims.
     
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  16. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    That's certainly true for Sunnis in general. But in the West the focus is in the Iranian regimes politics not religion.
     
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  17. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    The western empire hates us in the same way the empire in star wars hates Jedi knights. That's how I see it.
     
  18. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    We utterly and completely disagree with each other on this point.

    There's no such thing as a 'western empire'. And the dictatorial regime in Iran is to me utterly retrogressive by its suppression of the people's will by refusing to allow honest and free elections as a starting point.

    Painting the Iran regime as utterly good and the rest as utterly evil leads inevitably to war.
     
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  19. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    If you guys had any interest in democracy, you would not support dictators in the region and your policy would not be to maintain the status quo of dictators ruling middle-east. You don't oppose Iran because you want people to be free, you oppose them, because they want middle-east to be free from dictators and rule themselves. This is has been the truth of the conflict, middle east being free from dictators is what is meant by Iran "destabilizing the region". You try to complicate it about imperfect system Iran has, you can deceive yourself by that if it helps you sleep.

    To me good is when you are side of the oppressed and with the truthful, and evil is when you are side of oppressors or apathetic towards their oppression. It's that simple.

    And you guys been threatening with war for a long time. No, we won't stop exposing people for what they are and will continue to speak against oppression.
     
  20. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    You accuse the US of being imperfect. Yes, we're imperfect. The history of the US of the country has been a struggle to live up to our wonderful ideals. We're not there yet.

    As to threatening war: Iran's dictator clerics have been waging war and supporting terrorists for decades., Iran's hands are full of blood. Iran does not allow free and fair elections. Iran suppresses the will of the people.

    In the US, there's an open fight to make the country a better place. Iran suppresses any attempt to improve things and locks the people into a death-bringing stasis.

    Let Iran stop its actions and stop suppressing and repressing its people. Then Iran will have grounds to criticize us.
     
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