Most parents are addicted to their children

[Truthtraveler]

Hi all.

I came back to visit this site and saw that this topic had completely disappeared into oblivion. Figured I'd try to revive it, as I feel it has great value.

Hope others out there agree.

Any takers?

-TT

 

[Scuba Pete]

Have you had any kids yet?

 

[Truthtraveler]

Have you had any kids yet?

NetDoc, it is becoming more and more clear that you are not my intended audience, and are not at all open to what I have to say. But that does not mean everyone on this site is like you. Perhaps there are others who just have not yet found value in my writing.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Being this is in "General Debate", questioning the credentials of those pontificating obscure concepts is MORE than appropriate.

Perhaps there are others who just have not yet found value in my writing.

Have I misunderestimated you? That was a PROFOUND statement of the obvious! The real trick would be to find someone who HAS found some value in your writing.

 

[michel]

When I or anyone speaks the truth and others are in a state of denial, I often cannot help but pierce their denial. The problem is, they don’t know the different between their false selves, surrounded by their denial, and their true core, which they have buried to protect their ancient pain. So if I offend someone’s denial, they feel I’m offending THEM. But it’s not them I’m offending – it’s their self-deception.

Ah, so you pierce our denial, but you're not offending us.

It works the same in reverse too. In order to defend their denial they fight back and have to pierce the truth of who I am, and thus attack the best of me and try to wound it, but they don’t consider this offensive. I do.

The truth of what I am sounds much like a long- winded way of saying 'me' - why aren't we offending your denial of our denial to deny our self-deception?

All a matter of perspective. They think I’m offensive and they’re not. I think they’re offensive and I’m not. It comes down to who is speaking the truth – and who you believe.
Ah, so we think you are offensive ( I love people who put words in my mouth), and we think we are not offensive, But you think we are offensive, but you are not ? double standards? this is double duble standards................


Sounds like you’re hearing me correctly. And it’s a hell of a job to resolve these issues before someone has children – and practically impossible to do afterwards (but still possible, I would argue, if someone were utterly devoted and largely healthy to begin with).

"It's a hell of a problem to resolve the issues before having children, and almost practically impossible after" - so when do we get a 'window' ? during the birth of a child ?
I take it you have children, and they are perfectly mentally balanced as you no doubt consider you are.....



I agree. And I like that you wrote that in red. Maybe if you wrote it in NEON RED more people would listen.

Ah, tut... neon red

By the way, EnhancedSpirit, I read your earlier posts of the two quotes – Kahlil Gibran and the other poem, and I thought they were both lovely – and on the money. I didn’t comment on them, however, because I was too caught up in the debate. Sometimes the quiet still voice gets trampled, I suppose. BUT I HEARD IT!

I am so pleased that you have found someone on this forum of whom you approve; I must find out from enhanced Spirit what her secret is.......

Truthtraveler, I wish you the very best - it must be lonely in your ivory tower, being able to know everyone else's problems, without knowing anything about then - just pre-determined attitudes towards those without children, as well as those with children. Unfortunately, I can't think of a group who don't fit inro one of those groups.......Oh, well, I must go and put the wife out for the night, and take the cat some tea, so that she can settle for the night.

 

[Truthtraveler]

Being this is in "General Debate", questioning the credentials of those pontificating obscure concepts is MORE than appropriate.

You’ve made the point several times that you believe that someone who has no children cannot possibly critique parenting with any sort of validity. I don’t think I addressed that one clearly enough. I did write the following, however, back some pages: “The primary way to attain a good barometer for the quality of a parent is to understand the needs of a child, and that comes through resolving and understanding one’s own childhood conflicts…”

But I’ll restate it more clearly: You don’t have to be a biological parent to understand what good parenting is. The way to understand it is to truly understand the experience of the child – and be able to relate the child. Some parents can do this to better degrees than others, and some non-parents can do to better degrees than others.

I also believe that children themselves have much to teach parents about parenting, and can be wonderful critics of bad parenting. They often have a very valid point of view – and yet they are not parents themselves.

But if you believe that a non-parent has no right to critique parents, then it would make sense to me why you would think I am just a crank…

The real trick would be to find someone who HAS found some value in your writing.

Well, some have found value in it, even on this forum, but I always hope for more.

 

[michel]

..................."I also believe that children themselves have much to teach parents about parenting, and can be wonderful critics of bad parenting"..............

Everyone one has the ability to criticize, even children, as you say - but there is constructive criticism, as well as destructive criticism, and, in my experience of teachin children how to behave, although they are experts in destructive criticism (and the same goes for a high percentage of adults), constructive criticism is sadly lacking.

Are you really suggesting that a young mind, with little experience in life will be wiser than the parent ? - I dare say there are some cases where this is true, but I contend that they must be few and far between.

 

[Truthtraveler]

Everyone one has the ability to criticize, even children, as you say - but there is constructive criticism, as well as destructive criticism, and, in my experience of teachin children how to behave, although they are experts in destructive criticism (and the same goes for a high percentage of adults), constructive criticism is sadly lacking.

I don’t agree with you here – not in its entirety at least. I believe children are created perfect at their cores, and if we provide them with what they need we don’t have to teach them “how to behave” at all. In fact, we’d do far better to learn from them – if we could really listen to what they were expressing through their actions. All too often I see parents who have little or no ability to see the real messages and real calls for help behind the seemingly “destructive criticism” – and destructive behavior – of their children. Often it is the parents who are really the destructive ones, but their behavior is so accepted by our troubled norm that it is the children who end up getting pathologized.

Are you really suggesting that a young mind, with little experience in life will be wiser than the parent ? - I dare say there are some cases where this is true, but I contend that they must be few and far between.

While the mind of the young person is underdeveloped and immature, as that is the nature of being young, the spirit of the young person is often FAR, FAR more connected to truth than the adult, who has lost his connection. The adult may have a well-developed mind, as that is the nature of adulthood, but that doesn’t mean it’s connected with truth at all.

 

[Melody]

I don’t agree with you here – not in its entirety at least. I believe children are created perfect at their cores, and if we provide them with what they need we don’t have to teach them “how to behave” at all.

I'll agree partially with this statement. Children take on the behavior they observe. Just as they take on the negative behavior, they also take on the positive -- whether it's watching a father beat up a mother (and statistics show boys grow up to become spouse abusers as well) or hearing their mother/father say "please", "thank you" and "you're welcome".

This is all some children need. Others, however, need reinforcement. One of my sons had no problem getting along and sharing. The idea was totally foreign to his brother and we had to reinforce the correct behavior. If we hadn't, he would've turned into a bully because he was bigger and able to enforce his wants. As an adult, he has no problem compromising and "sharing". I doubt this would be the case if we had just let nature take its course.

 

[michel]

I don’t agree with you here – not in its entirety at least. I believe children are created perfect at their cores, and if we provide them with what they need we don’t have to teach them “how to behave” at all. In fact, we’d do far better to learn from them – if we could really listen to what they were expressing through their actions. All too often I see parents who have little or no ability to see the real messages and real calls for help behind the seemingly “destructive criticism” – and destructive behavior – of their children. Often it is the parents who are really the destructive ones, but their behavior is so accepted by our troubled norm that it is the children who end up getting pathologized.

While the mind of the young person is underdeveloped and immature, as that is the nature of being young, the spirit of the young person is often FAR, FAR more connected to truth than the adult, who has lost his connection. The adult may have a well-developed mind, as that is the nature of adulthood, but that doesn’t mean it’s connected with truth at all.

Where in the above argument ( which I will concede to, most part) does the character traits of the parents (Which are passed on to the children) have it's place ?

Marie and I have two sons; superficially (There are variations) - one has inherited Marie's Physical make up, whilst he definitely has my Character traits (Poor guy)....The other has My physical make up (Poor guy), while he has Marie's traits.

in respect of your second paragraph above, I would agree that Children are connected to the truth, but that truth is eroded as they grow up, and have to accept Society's truths - which are different from the 'real truths' - are you advocating bringing up a child in a 'nice' but 'unreal' world? - how do you then cope with the stages of 'testing the boundaries'?

 

[Truthtraveler]

Where in the above argument ( which I will concede to, most part) does the character traits of the parents (Which are passed on to the children) have it's place ?

A good question. Certainly it has to be some combination of nature and nurture, though as you might guess I lean far more toward the nurture spectrum than nature – though I fully grant that nature has its place, much as it’s easy to overestimate because (I believe) it lets parents off the hook for their errors and their denial and their subtly and sometimes not-so-subtle cruelties…

in respect of your second paragraph above, I would agree that Children are connected to the truth, but that truth is eroded as they grow up, and have to accept Society's truths - which are different from the 'real truths' –

I would feel more comfortable calling these society’s norms or society’s LIES or society’s FALSE truths. And I think the agents of society’s false truths are the parents. Where parents are not connected to the full truth the children have to conform to their dishonesty and fit it – that or be rejected.

are you advocating bringing up a child in a 'nice' but 'unreal' world? - how do you then cope with the stages of 'testing the boundaries'?

I’m not fully sure what you mean here, but I’ll do my best. By no means do I suggest bringing up a child in an “unreal” world. What I advocate is that PARENTS HEAL, simply as that, and then their family lives will become a very REAL and HEALTHY world. There is no way that parents who have not healed can fake the environment for the child. The child always knows the truth at his emotional core.

The problem, however, is that it becomes a terrible challenge for the child brought up in a family that does not conform to society’s dishonesty to make the leap out into the greater world. He has a major struggle ahead of him… This is what blocks many people from healing. It goes so against the grain of society… There is massive pressure in the society to stay stuck and dishonest.

As for “testing the boundaries,” I’m not sure exactly what you mean by this. Can you be more specific?