More about free will

[factseeker88]

But that's precisely what chance is: the occurance of events in the absence of any intention or identifiable cause.

Good. Add stimulation and uncontrollable response to it and you have the secret of life, your post, for example, stimulated my response. Thanks for waking me up.

“[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO.” John Ruskin (1819 - 1900) [/FONT]

 

[idea]

No serious scientist would say it's one or another. It's the cards we're dealt along with the game being played that creates who we are.

We're more than a deck of cards, we're more than where we grew up, we're more than who are parents are.

Compare what is alive with what is not alive -
rocks have no free will, they erode according to the cards they were dealt, their strength is their composition, their shape is formed by their neighborhood...

What is the difference between what is not alive and what is alive? Things that are alive grow - change - this is free will.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

We're more than a deck of cards, we're more than where we grew up, we're more than who are parents are.

Compare what is alive with what is not alive -
rocks have no free will, they erode according to the cards they were dealt, their strength is their composition, their shape is formed by their neighborhood...

What is the difference between what is not alive and what is alive? Things that are alive grow - change - this is free will.

Rocks change and grow, given enough time. Human bias litters your argument.

 

[idea]

Rocks change and grow, given enough time. Human bias litters your argument.

Rocks change and grow predictably according to their environment.

Victor: Viktor Frankl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Is proof that we are more than our environment.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Rocks change and grow predictably according to their environment.

Victor: Viktor Frankl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Is proof that we are more than our environment.

Not at all. Humans are more complex than rocks. They change and grow complexly, which makes them unpredictable...to humans.

 

[idea]

Not at all. Humans are more complex than rocks. They change and grow complexly, which makes them unpredictable...to humans.

Humans are made up of atoms, the same as anything else.

Take a dead, rotting corpse - you can predict what it will do... it's not that complex...

We can predict objects which react from outside causes. We cannot predict the behavior of objects that act in and of themselves - from no outside cause.

Where do you see the beginning of the cause/effect chain as terminating? Break an atom into smaller and smaller pieces - will there ever be something that is indivisible? and where did it's cause come from?

Do you think there was a grand beginning to it all? a root cause to it all? something that dictates the actions of everything?

You can always ask "but where did that come from?"

Chicken or the egg?

There is no beginning, there is no original cause, there is no controlling cause - eternity breaks down the cause/effect net, at some point all that is left is will.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Humans are made up of atoms, the same as anything else.

Take a dead, rotting corpse - you can predict what it will do... it's not that complex...

I'm gonna stop you here because frankly, you started rambling.

Of course a corpse is less complex. So is a broken computer. Computers are naturally complex, just like humans. The only difference is we built computers, so we can analyze it. The human mind and nervous system is the product of millions of years of evolution.

We can't analyze our own heads because it wasn't built to be analyzed.

 

[idea]

We can't analyze our own heads because it wasn't built to be analyzed.

Of coarse we can analyze our own heads

Do you believe in an original cause to trace everything back to? Where do you believe the beginning of the cause/effect chain starts?

People understand what "no end" means, few ponder the implications of what "no beginning" means...

no beginning = free will = no original cause to trace everything back to, at least that's how I see it, not sure if I am explaining it clearly though, sorry.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Of coarse we can analyze our own heads

Do you believe in an original cause to trace everything back to?

Yes.

And yeah, we can analyze our minds, but not very well. It's the equivalent of chimps trying to do calculus.

 

[idea]

Yes.
.

And what do you think caused the beginning?

Either something came from nothing - and that original something was uncaused (nothing before it to cause it into existence - and so it acted of it's own free will)

or

something has always existed - with no beginning - and no outside cause to trace all of it's actions back to - hence free will.

Existence requires the existence of free will. The universe is made up of two basic things - that which acts, and that which is acted upon... you cannot have one without the other.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

And what do you think caused the beginning?

Either something came from nothing - and that original something was uncaused (nothing before it to cause it into existence - and so it acted of it's own free will)

or

something has always existed - with no beginning - and no outside cause to trace all of it's actions back to.

Existence requires the existence of free will. The universe is made up of two basic things - that which acts, and that which is acted upon... you cannot have one without the other.

Your false equivocation of free will and random action is noted.

The beginning was random. There is no free will.

"Either our wills are determined by prior causes and we are not responsible for them, or they are the product of chance and we are not responsible for them. If a man's choice to shoot the president is determined by a certain pattern of neural activity, which is in turn the product of prior causes—perhaps an unfortunate coincidence of bad genes, an unhappy childhood, lost sleep, and a cosmic-ray bombardment—what can it possibly mean to say that his will is "free"? No one has ever described a way in which mental and physical processes could arise that would attest to the existence of such freedom."

 

[idea]

Your false equivocation of free will and random action is noted.

The beginning was random. There is no free will.

Nothing is random.

"It just randomly happened" is not a valid explanation for anything

Have to run, it's been fun!

 

[factseeker88]

Your false equivocation of free will and random action is noted.

Sounds all right to me, but he did leave out the stimulation and response part, the most important part. Your post, for example, stimulated my response,

​

“What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO.” John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Nothing is random.

"It just randomly happened" is not a valid explanation for anything

Have to run, it's been fun!

I agree, except for the beginning.

Everything else is a unfolding of that first moment.

 

[factseeker88]

I agree, except for the beginning.

Everything else is a unfolding of that first moment.

You left out the meaning. What you should have said was "Everything else is a stimulated unfolding of that first moment. Nothing happens until it's stimulated, nothing is created out of nothing.

“What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is WHAT WE DO.” John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

 

[Straw Dog]

I don't see the link between lack of free will and lack of responsibility.

I don't see it either.

Methinks it has to do with limited or relative identification. Total authenticity identifies with all life, ergo responsibility towards the well-being of life.

 

[Skwim]

I don't see the link between lack of free will and lack of responsibility.

I don't see it either.
Methinks it has to do with limited or relative identification. Total authenticity identifies with all life, ergo responsibility towards the well-being of life.

The argument generally goes as follows. Freewill doesn't exists because everything that happens, including what we, do is caused; therefore, we can only do what prior causes have dictated that we do. There is no such thing as choice. And, if we have no control over what we do we shouldn't be held responsible for it---think of the mental deficiency defense in our courts.

 

[idea]

I agree, except for the beginning.

Everything else is a unfolding of that first moment.

So you think nothing is random, except what happened in the beginning? that there was some first random moment when everything magically came into existence, and that this first random event has determined everything sense? to each their own I guess.....

 

[idea]

The argument generally goes as follows. Freewill doesn't exists because everything that happens, including what we, do is caused; therefore, we can only do what prior causes have dictated that we do. There is no such thing as choice. And, if we have no control over what we do we shouldn't be held responsible for it---think of the mental deficiency defense in our courts.

caused by what? Is there an original cause? is there an infinite regress of causes? at some point, there has to be something to blame it all on... whatever you can blame it all on, is the "responsible" party with free will.

 

[Skwim]

caused by what?

Previous causes of course.

Is there an original cause?

A first cause, as it were? My guess is that there was, although cosmologist have yet to determine the origination of the Big Bang.

is there an infinite regress of causes?

That's the cosmological $24 question. As of now no one knows, and the regress appears to stop at the B, B..

at some point, there has to be something to blame it all on...

See the above answers.

whatever you can blame it all on, is the "responsible" party with free will.

"Responsible party" as in

"5. a person, esp one who participates in some activity such as entering into a contract."
​

I assume, which brings up the question of how you took the leap from something to a someone. Care to explain?

.