Mega Church failures?

[Ellen Brown]

Sad to hear about the failure of Willow Creek's leadership. Not because I have a bit of sympathy for them but because so many of the followers will struggle. In 2003, I became disillusioned with Christianity because of the hateful response to the so called 9/11 attack. For a time, I decided that Jesus Christ was not real. Church leaders were quick to accuse me of things I had not done, and as it was, there was no path from contriteness, repentance and restoration there.

I searched for God in Islam because I knew that God existed, but just felt the whole rest of it was bogus. I think that in so many churches, Feel Good theology is pressed, and those who are mature know that suffering comes, often with no offense. For me, I believe that suffering is teaching, a sound Islamic idea that many Christians need to tumble to.

These days, it is best to be unaffiliated.

 

[Quintessence]

When you find a path that speaks to you and works for you, don't let others ruin it for you. It breaks me whenever I hear stories of that happening, because there's just no reason for it. No matter what you do in life, there is always going to be someone who will cut against your grain. Don't let others ruin things for you. They do their thing, you do yours. Someone else being an idiot doesn't mean you have to give up something beautiful.

That's not to say there aren't moments where it's important to cut ties. Sometimes, you legitimately fall in with a really toxic crowd and need to get out. But on the whole, I'd say it's best to be affiliated and not let a few bad apples spoil your impression of the inspirational. That's giving them far more power than they deserve. Just my two cents.

 

[Kenny]

I understand you position.

Perhaps the time I grew the most was when I realized that the people I served in church were human like anyone else and that my service was to God and not to man. And again realizing that I followed Jesus.

Thinking of the 10's of thousands of people that have been touched, encouraged, changed thanks to Bill Hyble.

At the same time, as you said, so difficult for the ones that have to go through this situation.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Sad to hear about the failure of Willow Creek's leadership. Not because I have a bit of sympathy for them but because so many of the followers will struggle. In 2003, I became disillusioned with Christianity because of the hateful response to the so called 9/11 attack. For a time, I decided that Jesus Christ was not real. Church leaders were quick to accuse me of things I had not done, and as it was, there was no path from contriteness, repentance and restoration there.

I searched for God in Islam because I knew that God existed, but just felt the whole rest of it was bogus. I think that in so many churches, Feel Good theology is pressed, and those who are mature know that suffering comes, often with no offense. For me, I believe that suffering is teaching, a sound Islamic idea that many Christians need to tumble to.

These days, it is best to be unaffiliated.

Not all Megachurches fail... it isn't good to trust in crowds but God can plant gardens as He chooses.... large ones, small ones

Adjacent psalms that tell a story

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Isn't that Saddleback church still going strong?

I love my very small synagogue. Crowds make me feel squished and lonely. I feel nurtured in small groups. But not everyone is that way. Some folks are more energized the more folks there are. AND more people means more "ministries."

 

[Ellen Brown]

Isn't that Saddleback church still going strong?

I love my very small synagogue. Crowds make me feel squished and lonely. I feel nurtured in small groups. But not everyone is that way. Some folks are more energized the more folks there are. AND more people means more "ministries."

Where I attend now, at times "feels" like the mob casting the Golden Calf. There are usually about two dozen attendees, but the other day there were like forty people there, and I almost could not stand it. Muslim prayer ritual, felt to me like the best way to offer God (Allah SWT) adoration and I miss it greatly. Honestly do not know what I will do now?

 

[whirlingmerc]

Where I attend now, at times "feels" like the mob casting the Golden Calf. There are usually about two dozen attendees, but the other day there were like forty people there, and I almost could not stand it. Muslim prayer ritual, felt to me like the best way to offer God (Allah SWT) adoration and I miss it greatly. Honestly do not know what I will do now?

Ellen, I guess they only had enough gold for a baby cow... not like a Wall Street bull? Idols just fall short and don't satisfy. The ask ask ask but cannot satisfy. And whether mega or mini if one is not careful a religious setting might challenge the idols or the heart or eyes or unfortunately even encourage the idols.

Golden calf is an interesting one... Is it correct that the first sura in the Koran is the cow and relates to that where in the Bible there are about 72 chapters unfolding who God is leading up to what God is not.

True religion challenges the idols of a person's heart whether it is a God who is always and only angry or merciless, or idols of money or intelligence or beauty. Whether KKK, or ISIS or Westboroughs there might be an example of religion not challenging idols and letting the weeds grow out of control

The first idol was in Genesis. Eve saw the fruit was desirable to eat, pleasing to the eye and desirable to make one wise... the lust of the flesh the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life pushing concience to the side

 

[whirlingmerc]

Isn't that Saddleback church still going strong?

I love my very small synagogue. Crowds make me feel squished and lonely. I feel nurtured in small groups. But not everyone is that way. Some folks are more energized the more folks there are. AND more people means more "ministries."

I think there are many strong large religious groups. Like small congregations they vary.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Where I attend now, at times "feels" like the mob casting the Golden Calf. There are usually about two dozen attendees, but the other day there were like forty people there, and I almost could not stand it. Muslim prayer ritual, felt to me like the best way to offer God (Allah SWT) adoration and I miss it greatly. Honestly do not know what I will do now?

So you have recently left Islam, but have no new religion? That can be distressing to a spiritual person. How are you doing?

May I ask why you left Islam, and what you are looking for? And what have you already ruled out? Other than that I like Jews practicing Judaism, I'm very open to what other people do in order to find God and cultivate a virtuous life.

 

[Ellen Brown]

So you have recently left Islam, but have no new religion? That can be distressing to a spiritual person. How are you doing?

May I ask why you left Islam, and what you are looking for? And what have you already ruled out? Other than that I like Jews practicing Judaism, I'm very open to what other people do in order to find God and cultivate a virtuous life.

May I say that I do not know what I am doing? It's a full on muddle, it is. But, since you asked...

In Islam, I loved the covering, modesty, and the things I did in the Prayer Ritual. I did not like extremists when I met them. The do not know G_d.

I'm American, so I am so torn in two about the issue of Jesus Christ. I do not know what to do.

I was Christian before, but there is the matter of Jesus Christ, and since I have been studying, I have learned only a little about how Jews see that situation. Christianity is firm and dogmatic that anyone who does not accept Jesus will go to Hell. Yet, other places in the Christian document find the Jews unpunished for that. I don't think that both sides can be correct.

So far, the Jews I have asked have not been willing to be helpful.

That is why I joined this site and put myself as an Abrahamic Religionist. I'm something but who knows what?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

May I say that I do not know what I am doing? It's a full on muddle, it is. But, since you asked...

In Islam, I loved the covering, modesty, and the things I did in the Prayer Ritual. I did not like extremists when I met them. The do not know G_d.

I'm American, so I am so torn in two about the issue of Jesus Christ. I do not know what to do.

I was Christian before, but there is the matter of Jesus Christ, and since I have been studying, I have learned only a little about how Jews see that situation. Christianity is firm and dogmatic that anyone who does not accept Jesus will go to Hell. Yet, other places in the Christian document find the Jews unpunished for that. I don't think that both sides can be correct.

So far, the Jews I have asked have not been willing to be helpful.

That is why I joined this site and put myself as an Abrahamic Religionist. I'm something but who knows what?

Well, I'm a big mouth Jew, and I stick my foot in my mouth all the time, and I especially speak up and try to help people if I see they are hurting or in distress. I don't know exactly how much I can help you but let's open a discussion. Just remember that I'm not perfect, so after all is said and done, it's just little old me giving you my two cents worth.

It sounds like you are what we would call a Noahide or Righteous Gentile -- a Gentile who believes in the God of Abraham and leads a virtuous life. The problem with this as a "religion" is that it doesn't have its own synagogues or churches or whatever they might be called -- there just aren't a whole lot of Noahides that are not also part of other faiths.

There is a Noahide in the forum, I can't remember his name, maybe Rival? Look for him.

A few possibilities for you to explore are flashing in my brain.

One is the Episcopal Church, which tends to be very liberal, and won't be telling you that all non-Christians go to hell. If you attend and don't share particular core beliefs, no one is going to condemn you there. You might not become a member, but you would be welcome. It would give you someplace to worship God with others, one that is within the scope of your experience.

Another is Unitarian Universalism. This is on the bare edge of where you are at, because they welcome monotheists, pantheists, panentheists, and even atheists and agnostics. IOW if you want to go there and worship your higher power, you are welcome. It's just a nice place for people who don't fit in anywhere else.

Judaism is always open to you. But I don't want you to think that you NEED to be a Jew. You don't. You are perfectly GREAT as a righteous Gentile or a Christian or a Muslim or whatever you end up being. And it is very difficult being a Jew. On top of anti-Semitism (3x as many hate crimes against Jews in the US as Muslims) we have 613 laws to follow. Why would anyone take that on voluntarily? Yet some do. I'm not telling you what to do.

But even if only for the sake of broadening your understanding of the Abrahamic faiths (hey, I know quite a bit about Islam and Christianity) you might call a local Reform or Conservative synagogue and say you'd like to come visit. Don't even go with the idea that you are looking to see if Judaism might be for you -- just be curious about the Jewish roots of Monotheism. See if you can talk to the Rabbi first, so that he/she expects you. I know my Temple goes way out of its way to be accommodating to guests, taking out the Torah scrolls and letting them see the actual text, taking the time to answer their questions, etc. Most synagogues will also offer some kind of basic Judaism class too, if you want to go further.

Again, NOOOOO pressure. You do NOT need to go this route.

I just want to see you find a home.