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I agree. In fact, I agree with pretty much everything you stated, Scott, accept for one tiny, practically miniscule detail. And yes it is a semantic one, but still... This one:Scott1 said:Seems like a pretty clear cut issue Linus...
Emphasis mine.Scott1 said:It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented
Very well so far. We just started last week so we haven't delved very deeply into it yet.Scott1 said:how's the discussion going?
Mutual submission..... Trinitarian self-giving .... I can't remember.Victor said:I remember Scott Hahn used another word instead of contract or convenant. arggg....you remember Scott or UD...
I get ya..... but we believe it's more than a simple promise.... covenant speaks more towards contract:Linus said:I would not define marriage as a contract, but a covenant. A promise.
As do I. But it is a promise nonetheless.Scott1 said:but we believe it's more than a simple promise....
I read you loud and clear.Scott1 said:covenant speaks more towards contract
The spouse who cheated? No.Linus said:But what do you all think of the question I posed earlier? That is, If someone commits adultery and is divorced by their spouse, should the adulterous spouse be allowed (scripturally) to remarry someone else?
I agree. But there are many who don't. I'm trying to see if there are any here that think as such.Scott1 said:The spouse who cheated? No.
What about outside the church? Do you think that they should be able to marry a non-christian?Scott1 said:The innocent spouse should be allowed to remarry in the Church.
For a Catholic, a marriage outside the Church would not be valid..... it may be blessed by the Church afterwards, but many Priests would make a huge deal about it....Linus said:What about outside the church?
According to the law in force in the Latin Church, a mixed marriage needs for liceity the express permission of ecclesiastical authority. In case of disparity of cult (between a Catholic and a non-baptized person)an express dispensation from this impediment is required for the validity of the marriage. This permission or dispensation presupposes that both parties know and do not exclude the essential ends and properties of marriage; and furthermore that the Catholic party confirms the obligations, which have been made known to the non-Catholic party, of preserving his or her own faith and ensuring the baptism and education of the children in the Catholic Church.Do you think that they should be able to marry a non-christian?
You are welcome in any thread I'm a part of my friend.Draka said:I know this is in biblical debates and I am not going to interject anything biblically...just a question.
Physical abuse is not only immoral, it is a crime and sould be punished to the full extent by law. A spouse that commits physical abuse fails in his commitment. He does injury to the sign of the covenant which the marriage bond is, transgresses the rights of the other spouse, and undermines the institution of marriage by breaking the contract on which it is based. He compromises the good of human generation and the welfare of children who need their parents' stable union.What are your stances on abuse? Even if there is no adultery in a marriage...is any form of abuse reason for divorce in your eyes? Be the abuse verbal, mental, emotional, or physical. At what point during abuse is it okay in your eyes for a divorce? And remarriage?
Abuse destroys the victim and the relationship is never the same. I bring this up because my ex-husband, while he did cheat on me, abused me a lot, in all ways. I could actually deal with the cheating, but it was the abuse I couldn't handle. Aside from the extremely hurtful things he said to me that tore me down as a person he actually took extreme joy in physically torturing me. From throwing me into furniture and walls, to striking me and biting me to tear flesh, to choking, strangling me and trying to kill me twice. The adultery at that point seemed like nothing at all. I didn't care who he slept with at all...just wanted to get away from his abusive mouth and hands...I feared for my life and sanity. Even if there was no cheating, I would have still divorced him...I had my life and the life of my daughter to think about. There was no way I could have stayed with the insane abusive man who thought he was an all powerful demon...literally he thought he could go into Hell and command other demons! He was crazy and violent and I had to get away from him.Linus said:Good question Draka. One to which I'm still trying to figure out the answer myself.
Let's make this clear: God hates divorce.
Malachai 2:16 - "For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously."
In no case does God enjoy divorce. He would rather see the marriage worked out than ended for good. But he allows it to occur ine one case. That is adultery. Having said that, I think it would be safe to say that It would please God more to see the abusive spouse put and end to his hurtful ways. Is abuse bad? Of course. Does it permit divorce? I would hesitate to say yes. In truth, I do not know, biblically.
Thank you Scott...on all counts.Scott1 said:You are welcome in any thread I'm a part of my friend.
Physical abuse is not only immoral, it is a crime and sould be punished to the full extent by law. A spouse that commits physical abuse fails in his commitment. He does injury to the sign of the covenant which the marriage bond is, transgresses the rights of the other spouse, and undermines the institution of marriage by breaking the contract on which it is based. He compromises the good of human generation and the welfare of children who need their parents' stable union.
.... OK, that's the "easy" part.... but as we move on to verbal/emotional abuse, it becomes more complicated. In my view, a couple in a situation like this would seek some marital counseling.... to me, the bonds of marriage are strong enough to work through most anything for the sake of family.... but yes, I am sure that there are cases where one spouse is beyond help/refuses help and will continue the abuse. The abused spouse in this instance would be forced to seek a divorce decreed by civil law. This spouse, would fall into the same category as one who was the victim of adultery in my opinon and would not be guilty of anything. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abused, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.
I am very sorry to hear about that, Draka. It always saddens me to hear of such abuse, especially between spouses. I'm glad you were able to get away from him.Draka said:Abuse destroys the victim and the relationship is never the same. I bring this up because my ex-husband, while he did cheat on me, abused me a lot, in all ways. I could actually deal with the cheating, but it was the abuse I couldn't handle. Aside from the extremely hurtful things he said to me that tore me down as a person he actually took extreme joy in physically torturing me. From throwing me into furniture and walls, to striking me and biting me to tear flesh, to choking, strangling me and trying to kill me twice. The adultery at that point seemed like nothing at all. I didn't care who he slept with at all...just wanted to get away from his abusive mouth and hands...I feared for my life and sanity. Even if there was no cheating, I would have still divorced him...I had my life and the life of my daughter to think about. There was no way I could have stayed with the insane abusive man who thought he was an all powerful demon...literally he thought he could go into Hell and command other demons! He was crazy and violent and I had to get away from him.
What I'm curious to know...you now knowing that, is that if the cheating wasn't even a factor do you think it was "biblically" okay for me to divorce him?Linus said:I am very sorry to hear about that, Draka. It always saddens me to hear of such abuse, especially between spouses. I'm glad you were able to get away from him.
Linus said:My Bible class is currently studying this topic on Wednesday nights. What are your thoughts on it? What dis Jesus and Paul have to say about it? Who (from a Biblical perspective, preferably) can get divorced and for what reasons? Any thoughts?
I would say no because I think many marriages go thru stages like this. Even if the stage may last a long time, I have seen marriages come back after over 20 years. Keep in mind that a covenant has been made with God as well. You must be faithful to that as well.And also, do you think it is possible for two people to grow apart in who they are any more that communication breaks down to the point that counseling does not help and there is constant bitterness and spiteful things said between the two. If one person or both are no longer even happy in the relationship...is it "right" to continue in the marriage...especially if there are children involved that will see the bad relationship as an example of what a relationship or marriage is?
So it is better to spend 20 years of your already short time on this earth miserable and a bad example to your children of what a loving caring relationship should be? Wouldn't "God", if he so truly cares for his children, want us all to be happy and raise our children in kind and loving homes? When does it become more important for the health and happiness of the relationship and the children involved than the doctrine that says you shouldn't get divorced?Victor said:I would say no because I think many marriages go thru stages like this. Even if the stage may last a long time, I have seen marriages come back after over 20 years. Keep in mind that a covenant has been made with God as well. You must be faithful to that as well.
~Victor