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many times the son of man came from and went to heaven

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by t3gah, Jan 21, 2005.

  1. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    [All scripture quotes from the World English Bible]
    Mark 9:2 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John, and brought them up onto a high mountain privately by themselves, and he was changed into another form in front of them. 9:3 His clothing became glistening, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them. 9:4 Elijah and Moses appeared to them, and they were talking with Jesus.

    9:5 Peter answered Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let’s make three tents: one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 9:6 For he didn’t know what to say, for they were very afraid.

    9:7 A cloud came, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is my beloved Son. Listen to him.”

    9:8 Suddenly looking around, they saw no one with them any more, except Jesus only.
    In order to be the dead Moses, Moses must be resurrected and then put to death for the passages above, unless he's in heaven and he comes down for the account above. No one actually saw Moses die like when Aaron died. Did God or Jesus bring back Moses from the dead to prove that Jesus was the son of God? Was the whole thing a trick? If Elijah who was not born of Holy Spirit like Jesus was, went to heaven and Moses who was supposedly dead were both talking to Jesus, but Jesus says later in John 3:13 that no one descended or ascended from heaven except the 'son of man', then Moses got taken like Enoch. Taken to heaven. And both Elijah and Moses came down from heaven for the account in Mark 9:4.
    Deuteronomy 34:1 Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. Yahweh showed him all the land of Gilead, to Dan, 34:2 and all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, to the hinder sea, 34:3 and the South, and the Plain of the valley of Jericho the city of palm trees, to Zoar. 34:4 Yahweh said to him, “This is the land which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying, ‘I will give it to your seed.’ I have caused you to see it with your eyes, but you shall not go over there.”

    34:5 So Moses the servant of Yahweh died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of Yahweh. 34:6 He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab over against Beth Peor: but no man knows of his tomb to this day.
    Since Deuteronomy 34:1-5 is written in the thrid person which Luke is not, this account is from someone elses perspective. No one actually knows that he didn't ascend to heaven like Enoch did in Genesis 5:24. Maybe the body was buried, but Moses still ascended to heaven. Why? See Mark 9:4.
    2 Kings 2:1 It happened, when Yahweh would take up Elijah by a whirlwind into heaven, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

    2 Kings 2:11 It happened, as they still went on, and talked, that behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
    Elijah appears in Mark 9:4, but Elijah is reported to have ascended to heaven in 2 Kings 2:11. Elijah descends to earth in Mark 9:4, just like Jesus says in John 3:13. Son of man.
    John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.
    If Elijah is also a "Son of man" and has ascended to heaven, Jesus in John 3:13 is not telling a lie, because all offspring of Adam, the definition of which is "man", are all "son of man".

    Adam means Man or Mankind
    Eve means Woman of Womankind

    Elijah, Enoch, Ezekiel, Jesus, Moses. All are "son of man" which includes everyone born from Adam. Jesus came out of Eve. Eve came from Adam.
    Ezekiel 2:1 He said to me, Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak with you. 2:2 The Spirit entered into me when he spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard him who spoke to me. 2:3 He said to me, Son of man, I send you to the children of Israel, to nations that are rebellious, which have rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me even to this very day. 2:4 The children are impudent and stiff-hearted: I am sending you to them; and you shall tell them, Thus says the Lord Yahweh. 2:5 They, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house), yet shall know that there has been a prophet among them. 2:6 You, son of man, don’t be afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns are with you, and you do dwell among scorpions: don’t be afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they are a rebellious house. 2:7 You shall speak my words to them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear; for they are most rebellious. 2:8 But you, son of man, hear what I tell you; don’t be rebellious like that rebellious house: open your mouth, and eat that which I give you.
    Regular people are all "son of man" then, which means that those in Revelation, the 144,000 who will be priests and judges, are what they are, but the rest of the people are going to heaven. Why? Because the 144,000 in Revelation is a vision, not actuality. It's a depiction of what assignments will be handed out. Jesus even states this in an answer where he replies to those who are asking about a law in the Mosaic Law. Seven brothers and one wife. The law states that the next brother in line gets the wife if the first brother dies. The question they pose is one that says that each die all the way to the last brother and the wife has no children. Their question is: Who gets her in the resurrection? Jesus says some things and his main point is that they don't know the scriptures because everyone will be 'as angels'.

    If no one gets married or is married in the resurrection, then more than the 144,000 are all going to heaven. Jesus said this himself. "They will all be as angels". Jesus don't tell no lies. Just 144,000 will be rulers or something like that and some people will be left on earth after Armageddon. Those that 'walk through the battle'.

    Which means that Jesus is not the only one that came from or went to heaven. Which means that the current interpretations that exist from many a bible scholar is wrong if they mean that only Jesus came from and went to heaven. Looks like a few people have. And then went back again.
     
  2. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    This was a vision
    The vision is, as it were, a preview of Christ’s Kingdom glory. The disciples saw, in effect, "the Son of man coming in his kingdom," just as Jesus had promised a week earlier. After Jesus’ death, Peter wrote about their having ‘become eyewitnesses of Christ’s magnificence while they were with him in the holy mountain.

    The Pharisees had demanded from Jesus a sign to prove that he was the one promised in the Scriptures to be God’s chosen King. They were given no such sign. On the other hand, Jesus’ intimate disciples are permitted to see Jesus’ transfiguration as confirmation of the Kingdom prophecies. Thus, Peter later wrote: "Consequently we have the prophetic word made more sure." Matthew 16:13, 28–17:13; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-37; 2 Peter 1:16-19.

     
  3. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    Transfiguration is what it says in the NWT. The fact still remains that three persons were seen instead of the one. Where did the other two come from? If Jesus was flesh, then Moses and Elijah came from inside Jesus. Or the trick with the holy spirit in the womb has happened before with Moses and Elijah. Or Moses and Elijah are angels in Mark 9:4..

    Mark 9:2 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John, and brought them up onto a high mountain privately by themselves, and he was changed into another form in front of them. 9:3 His clothing became glistening, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them. 9:4 Elijah and Moses appeared to them, and they were talking with Jesus.
    In the text above it doesn't say that Jesus transformed himself into Elijah, Moses and Himself. Verse 9:3 says what the transformation was. Verse 9:4 states that Elijah and Moses appeared.

    My point is that Moses and Elijah went to heaven along with Enoch. Which confirms the quote in John 3:13 that 'son of man' came from and went to heaven. Ezekiel is called this many times in alot of different bibles, including the nwt. With that said, any 'son of man' or offspring of Adam could have gone to heaven already. Unless every bible on the planet has the wrong words for the scriptures I cited. So during the time when the apostles, James, Peter and John were present on the mountain, Moses and Elijah descended from heaven to talk to Jesus before God the Father piped up and Moses & Elijah scooted back to heaven.

    Which means the thought that many people have about Jesus being the only one that came and went or went and came to heaven is false. Enoch went to heaven. Elijah went to heaven. Moses is recorded as died but no one knew back then if he ascended to heaven like the world does now because Mark 9:4 proves he came down from heaven to show the apostles that Jesus could summon people who are in heaven and talk with them. This also proves that Elijah went to heaven twice because there's another scripture that states he sent a letter to someone and this was after the chariot business.
     
  4. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Yes, T3, I do. However, I keep it at "appeared" and don't make it "came down." It does provide some substantiation for the Orthodox practice of praying to/with the dead ;).
     
  5. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Toooooooooo easy to answer. I don't believe in any persons "descending" from any "heaven" or being transferred from earth to any such "heaven". If such things were possible, why have events like that ceased even long before the advent of modern science?
     
  6. John Debaptist

    John Debaptist New Member

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    Heaven is Outer Space. When Jesus rose from the dead he went to heaven he started rising and was hidden from the disciples view. The angels then told the disciples that in the very same way he left he would return. Elijah never died and he was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind fiery chariot. Christians have been confused by the immortality of the soul doctrine which is not from the Bible. It came by way of Greek mystical theology when the Jews were hellenized by the Greeks during the time of the Seleucid dynasties which took control of Jerusalem sometime around 165BC.
     
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