Love the sinner and hate the sin

[sojourner]

The following quotes are excellent reasons why theology and biblical interpretation should be left to the professionals. The quotes are inaccurate and hurtful.

How can any christian (and I assume any abrahamic scripture followerer) love the homosexual when they associate and the homosexual with same-sex sex and b. define the homosexual based on same-sex sex....?

1) we’re commanded to love all
2) homosexuality is not defined by the sex act. It’s defined by one’s orientation.

Same-sex sex is compared to rape, incest, and murder in scripture.

The biblical view of same sex acts is ambiguous at best, since the concept of orientation was unknown at the time of writing, and since the term “homosexual” does not appear in the texts. At all.

For example, a person who kills another person is a murderer

Incorrect. “Murder” is a legal term, not an action. Not everyone who kills is a murderer. This is the kind of careless assumption that leads to unfounded judgment and oppression of people.

According to the bible, those who have same-sex sex are homosexuals

Wrong again. Homosexuality patently does not appear in the texts. Again, would be best to leave interpretation to the professionals.

How can you love a homosexual and define her akin to these detestable actions (rape, incest, murder, etc)?

We don’t define homosexuals akin to these detestable acts. And to say that we do is, itself, detestable.

This is precisely why personal feelings, experiences, and understandings where Christianity and the Bible are concerned, are dangerous. Do you know how many people have been beaten, killed, discriminated against, and disenfranchised — all acts of violence — because of the proliferation of this heinous kind of thinking?

 

[sojourner]

Since scriptural marriage is only between man and woman

False. I’ve witnessed and officiated several same-sex Christian marriages.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

False. I’ve witnessed and officiated several same-sex Christian marriages.

In scripture?

Where is that supported in scripture?

(Playing devil's advocate)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The following quotes are excellent reasons why theology and biblical interpretation should be left to the professionals. The quotes are inaccurate and hurtful.

I understand you have high regard for people who are "professionals" but humility and all lies in "washing the feet of a sinner." There's no use of speaking with most people if their intelligence doesn't equal to your own. Assuming this isn't just theological matters.

1) we’re commanded to love all
2) homosexuality is not defined by the sex act. It’s defined by one’s orientation.

If you're not going by scripture, I'd agree. That's not how scripture defines it, so I'm going off that with my question not what we know of today.

The biblical view of same sex acts is ambiguous at best, since the concept of orientation was unknown at the time of writing, and since the term “homosexual” does not appear in the texts. At all.

Yes. I know. Yet many christians confuse the two.

Incorrect. “Murder” is a legal term, not an action. Not everyone who kills is a murderer. This is the kind of careless assumption that leads to unfounded judgment and oppression of people.

Semantics. Do you get my point?

Wrong again. Homosexuality patently does not appear in the texts. Again, would be best to leave interpretation to the professionals.

Same-sex sex acts are translated as homosexuality in scripture.

Why talk to anyone if you don't accept and respect their opinions?

It's an insult and highly based on too much pride, in my opinion.

We don’t define homosexuals akin to these detestable acts. And to say that we do is, itself, detestable.

This is precisely why personal feelings, experiences, and understandings where Christianity and the Bible are concerned, are dangerous. Do you know how many people have been beaten, killed, discriminated against, and disenfranchised — all acts of violence — because of the proliferation of this heinous kind of thinking?

I know they are not. I can't change scriptural translations and don't care to.

Yes. But what makes your interpretation better than others?

Why should I take your word for it? (Saying you're a pastor and a professional doesn't cut it. Devaluing other people's intelligence doesn't help. It's actually counterproductive)

 

[sojourner]

In scripture?

Where is that supported in scripture?

(Playing devil's advocate)

Doesn’t matter where it’s supported in scripture. Authorities understand the deficiency in the biblical writers’ understanding of human sexuality. Do you understand the concept of “biblical marriage” includes having to marry one’s rapist? Having to marry your dead husband’s brother? Circumstances alter cases. We are not living in ancient Palestine. We understand that the biblical injunctions concerning justice, compassion and forbearance, not to mention hospitality, are fundamental and apply across cultural differences. Those concepts support same sex marriage in a culture where a more scientific understanding of human sexuality is in play.

 

[sojourner]

If you're not going by scripture, I'd agree. That's not how scripture defines it, so I'm going off that with my question not what we know of today

Nope. Scripture doesn’t even mention homosexuality. At all. Therefore, there is no “biblical definition of homosexuality.”

Same-sex sex acts are translated as homosexuality in scripture

No they’re not.

Why talk to anyone if you don't accept and respect their opinions?

It's an insult and highly based on too much pride, in my opinion

Look: would you have a heart procedure done by someone who’s not a doctor? No! You could get hurt. Would you have a not-lawyer represent you in court? No! You could get hurt. Propagating these kinds of lies about homosexuality and the Bible hurts people! This has nothing to do with pride. It has to do with not hurting people.

Yes. But what makes your interpretation better than others?

The ability to actually exegete what’s in the Bible and formulate a valid and applicable theological construct that honors what the texts actually say, and that honors the biblical and spiritual tenets of decency, honesty, compassion, justice, hospitality, and forbearance.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Doesn’t matter where it’s supported in scripture. Authorities understand the deficiency in the biblical writers’ understanding of human sexuality. Do you understand the concept of “biblical marriage” includes having to marry one’s rapist? Having to marry your dead husband’s brother? Circumstances alter cases. We are not living in ancient Palestine. We understand that the biblical injunctions concerning justice, compassion and forbearance, not to mention hospitality, are fundamental and apply across cultural differences. Those concepts support same sex marriage in a culture where a more scientific understanding of human sexuality is in play.

Is it supported in scripture in your opinion?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Nope. Scripture doesn’t even mention homosexuality. At all. Therefore, there is no “biblical definition of homosexuality.”

It mentions same-sex acts align with rape and incest. Whomever translated the bible in English used homosexuality in context to same-sex relations (sexual promiscuity). Whether it is or not is irrelevant; is not my point. It is as read.

No they’re not.

It's English translation.

Look: would you have a heart procedure done by someone who’s not a doctor? No! You could get hurt. Would you have a not-lawyer represent you in court? No! You could get hurt. Propagating these kinds of lies about homosexuality and the Bible hurts people! This has nothing to do with pride. It has to do with not hurting people.

That's not a good analogy.

It's like you're going into an elementary class room to teach them about college mathematics. Then blame the children for not understanding the context in which you talk about different sub-topics under mathematic studies.

As for propagating lies of homosexuality, the bible isn't anything I base my life on. I can't change what is written in English just because I disagree with it.

Pride meaning you have too much pride in what you learned and studied and less humility for other people you speak to (anyone) who doesn't equal to your level of knowledge. Pride also in the fact you seem to believe you know the right answers and interpretations. Lack of humility.

The ability to actually exegete what’s in the Bible and formulate a valid and applicable theological construct that honors what the texts actually say, and that honors the biblical and spiritual tenets of decency, honesty, compassion, justice, hospitality, and forbearance.

But all this is your perspective. Thousands of people study the bible and many are more intelligent than you are (if I were to suggest this). I don't see life that way. For example, militants have hierarchy while at the same time they see themselves as a team. Hierarchy and professionality and titles have their place.

 

[sojourner]

Is it supported in scripture in your opinion?

Marriage between loving partners is supported in scripture.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Marriage between loving partners is supported in scripture.

Where does it say husbands or wives?

In other words, where in the bible does it say partners without referring to the sex in regards to marriage and consemation of that relationship?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Marriage between loving partners is supported in scripture.

Also, are you the only one who has the correct interpretation of the bible?

 

[sojourner]

It mentions same-sex acts align with rape and incest

Only because the ancients didn’t understand how human sexuality works. It also condones slavery and paints women as somewhat less than human, but we’ve managed — in the most well -thought quarters — to overcome those social deficiencies promulgated by the Bible. Homosexuality is no different. We are not constrained to idolize the Bible as either perfect or infallible.

Whomever translated the bible in English used homosexuality in context to same-sex relations (sexual promiscuity)

The best translations don’t use the term “homosexual” because that term is biased and incorrect.

It is as read

See your quote below on pride. You “just read” the text and then propagate a very harmful mistranslation that has justified systemic violence against homosexual people. This is what happens when those who don’t know how to properly treat the texts turn their noses up at the intellectual process of interpretation and translation.

It's English translation

Very poor translation.

That's not a good analogy.

Yes it is. This sort of shenanigans you champion hurts people.

As for propagating lies of homosexuality, the bible isn't anything I base my life on. I can't change what is written in English just because I disagree with it.

You can change how you read the texts and understand them.

Pride meaning you have too much pride in what you learned and studied and less humility for other people you speak to (anyone) who doesn't equal to your level of knowledge

It’s not pride. It’s righteous indignation.

Pride also in the fact you seem to believe you know the right answers and interpretations.

I obviously know better than you, judging by your posts here. Physicians know more about medicine than I do. Translators know more about the ancient languages of the Bible than I do. So what? I don’t let it put a chip on my shoulder.

But all this is your perspective

No. It’s how the exegetical process works.

 

[sojourner]

Also, are you the only one who has the correct interpretation of the bible?

It’s not about correct or incorrect. It’s about best practices.

 

[sojourner]

Where does it say husbands or wives?

In other words, where in the bible does it say partners without referring to the sex in regards to marriage and consemation of that relationship?

It doesn’t. But we understand (as I’ve said) that their concept of human sexuality was much less complete than ours. We don’t have to blindly read the texts literalistically. We believe we are following the spirit of the best teachings.

 

[rosends]

Just in case anyone wants to read about a Jewish perspective on a similar issue, here is a discussion of a Talmudic story regarding this.

https://www.torahmusings.com/2016/02/was-beruriah-wrong/

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Only because the ancients didn’t understand how human sexuality works. It also condones slavery and paints women as somewhat less than human, but we’ve managed — in the most well -thought quarters — to overcome those social deficiencies promulgated by the Bible. Homosexuality is no different. We are not constrained to idolize the Bible as either perfect or infallible.


The best translations don’t use the term “homosexual” because that term is biased and incorrect.


See your quote below on pride. You “just read” the text and then propagate a very harmful mistranslation that has justified systemic violence against homosexual people. This is what happens when those who don’t know how to properly treat the texts turn their noses up at the intellectual process of interpretation and translation.


Very poor translation.


Yes it is. This sort of shenanigans you champion hurts people.


You can change how you read the texts and understand them.


It’s not pride. It’s righteous indignation.

I obviously know better than you, judging by your posts here. Physicians know more about medicine than I do. Translators know more about the ancient languages of the Bible than I do. So what? I don’t let it put a chip on my shoulder.


No. It’s how the exegetical process works.

I don't believe anything in the bible. Just going by what I read and many abrahamic traditions whether sola scriptural or not interpret these verses. I highly doubt the original text aligns with how you interpret scripture. Unless you are in that culture, language, and practice (say jew to judaism) I can only take what you say as opinion.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Only because the ancients didn’t understand how human sexuality works. It also condones slavery and paints women as somewhat less than human, but we’ve managed — in the most well -thought quarters — to overcome those social deficiencies promulgated by the Bible. Homosexuality is no different. We are not constrained to idolize the Bible as either perfect or infallible.

Yes. That's just the bible for ya. I can't change what it says. It is what it is.

The best translations don’t use the term “homosexual” because that term is biased and incorrect.

I know. Since it is used, that's what I go by according to biblical (English translation) definition not what we know of today.

See your quote below on pride. You “just read” the text and then propagate a very harmful mistranslation that has justified systemic violence against homosexual people. This is what happens when those who don’t know how to properly treat the texts turn their noses up at the intellectual process of interpretation and translation.

I can't help how the text is set up. I wish it read differently, but it doesn't. Many people who have the same education as you come off with different interpretations most likely (if they are christian) based on their perspective.

Very poor translation.

It's all I have.

Yes it is. This sort of shenanigans you champion hurts people.

It's not a good translation because of a few reasons

Look: would you have a heart procedure done by someone who’s not a doctor? No! You could get hurt. Would you have a not-lawyer represent you in court? No! You could get hurt. Propagating these kinds of lies about homosexuality and the Bible hurts people! This has nothing to do with pride. It has to do with not hurting people.

This was no where near the point raised. It referred to your pride when it comes to religious education and how you see others when it comes to that "professionality" as a pastor and other titles you say you have earned.

I'm not at all sure how the above relates to this.

You can change how you read the texts and understand them.

That's what I see you're doing.

It’s not pride. It’s righteous indignation.

It's pride. Which in one way is fine since you most likely did a lot of hard work to get where you are. On the other end, it can make you separate yourself from others not at your level. There's a lack of humility regardless the name you call it. Humility also accepts constructive criticism even if you don't see it yourself.

I obviously know better than you, judging by your posts here. Physicians know more about medicine than I do. Translators know more about the ancient languages of the Bible than I do. So what? I don’t let it put a chip on my shoulder.

Thanks for raising my above point.

No. It’s how the exegetical process works.

If you like.

 

[sojourner]

Why should I take your word for it?

No one’s asking you to do that. I do encourage you to seek out the best authorities in the content area.

I don't believe anything in the bible

Then why are you spouting this crap as if you do?

Just going by what I read

You’re not reading correctly.

I highly doubt the original text aligns with how you interpret scripture

Of course not. I’ve already explained why. I will say again: we believe we are upholding the spirit of the best attributes the Bible puts forth.

Unless you are in that culture, language, and practice (say jew to judaism) I can only take what you say as opinion

There’s your second mistake.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It’s not about correct or incorrect. It’s about best practices.

Do you have the best practices over all other people?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It doesn’t. But we understand (as I’ve said) that their concept of human sexuality was much less complete than ours. We don’t have to blindly read the texts literalistically. We believe we are following the spirit of the best teachings.

Yes. I know. I disagree with it as well. I can't change what it says but thankfully, I'm not christian and don't live my life by its teachings. This sounds like your personal opinion.