Love Me Or Leave Me

[Harmonious]

Yet Y- told you and your people not to aspire to nationality or statehood until your worldly Messiah came...

No such thing. We have BEEN a nation since God took us out of Egypt. Whether we are in the same place or not is not the point.

We don't NEED the Messiah to be the people God told us to be. We need the Messiah to help govern us and enforce Torah law as law in Israel among Jews.

Statehood. Huh? I don't understand where you are coming from with all of this. Whenever and however we get back to Israel is our many goals.

There are a few groups of Jews who believe in your post. Most of us don't, however.

 

[Random]

And you still deserve to be smacked for calling us a "nation of imposters."

Possibly, but I'm not the sort of Christian inclined to turn the other cheek...

Your own G-d is reputed to have told you to foreswear nationhood until the coming of the Messiah.

Yet the State of Israel is not held to be thus an affront to the Lord?

 

[Harmonious]

Possibly, but I'm not the sort of Christian inclined to turn the other cheek...

Your own G-d is reputed to have told you to foreswear nationhood until the coming of the Messiah.

Where do you get that?

Yet the State of Israel is not held to be thus an affront to the Lord?

Not to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Random]

Not to the best of my knowledge.

How would you know? The question is sincere. How do you know Yahweh G-d approves of the State of Israel?

Some Kabbalistic magic spell or formula perhaps revealed His opinion?

Or did he just appear in a bush and you asked Him?

I'm serious, how do you know that G-d is not affronted by the premature existence of a nation-state called Israel?

Is it not right that Christians should believe Israel, like Zion and Covenant, are to be read spiritually and not in the worldly sense?

Please, I want to know...

 

[Heneni]

Question: Wouldnt god consider a true isrealite to be somebody who has circumcised his heart?

 

[Random]

Question: Wouldnt god consider a true isrealite to be somebody who has circumcised his heart?

Exactly, frubals. I would.

 

[Harmonious]

Question: Wouldnt god consider a true isrealite to be somebody who has circumcised his heart?

Not unless that person also obeyed Torah law and physically and spiritually was a Jew.

 

[Random]

Not unless that person also obeyed Torah law and physically and spiritually was a Jew.

Torah...or Talmud? Be honest, which takes precedence? And what of Jews who are "physically" held to be Jewish but are Atheists, like the majority of Zionists are? Is the physical "Jew" who does not observe the Law still an Israelite?

 

[Harmonious]

How would you know? The question is sincere. How do you know Y- G-d approves of the State of Israel?

Some Kabbalistic magic spell or formula perhaps revealed His opinion?

Or did he just appear in a bush and you asked Him?

I'm serious, how do you know that G-d is not affronted by the premature existence of a nation-state called Israel?

Is it not right that Christians should believe Israel, like Zion and Covenant, are to be read spiritually and not in the worldly sense?

Please, I want to know...

I'm not sure I understand the question. I mean, I read and understand the words, but I don't understand where the underlying assumption is coming from, so the thrust of the question is lost to me.

But I'll do the best I can. Every four steps a Jew takes in the land of Israel is a commandment, explains the Ramban. Israel is where Jews belong.

If you asked me about what I think about the less than religious government that runs Israel, I could probably say that God may or may not be happy with it. But I lived there for nine months and I can tell you that God is indeed happy with Jews living there.

How do I know? It is impossible to explain.

The concept of Jews not forming a State until the coming of the Messiah is found amongst the Satmar Chassidim, who are to be greatly respected for their learning and their piety.

Regardless, the majority of Orthodox Jews disagree with their position. The fact that God allowed us to live there, and win wars like the War of Independence in 1948, and others, 1967, 1973, and others, including the miraculous lack of loss of life during the Persian Gulf War in 1991 shows us that God is interested in Jews living in Israel, even if we do so imperfectly.

And it is not right for Christians to believe that Israel is only a "spiritual" entity without physical location. Or whatever you are asking.

It refers to the Jews, those interesting people you call imposters, living in the land that God gave to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We are supposed to follow the Torah, and run the country the way God prescribed, and Rambam described in his Laws of Kingship.

Jews in Israel are far from that. But that isn't to say that some Jews aren't trying very hard to live by God's laws there, and abroad.

We may not succeed in all places, but that is not a categorical failure, either.

There is nothing you can find, I'm sure, that says that "Your own G-d is reputed to have told you to foreswear nationhood until the coming of the Messiah."

It is the job of Jews, now as ever, to do the best we can with what we have, where we are.

 

[Harmonious]

Torah...or Talmud? Be honest, which takes precedence?

They are one and the same, Random. If a Jew is doing one, by definition, a Jew has to be doing the other.

And what of Jews who are "physically" held to be Jewish but are Atheists, like the majority of Zionists are?

Yup.

Is the physical "Jew" who does not observe the Law still an Israelite?

Are you asking about who is an Israeli, as determined by Israeli law? There are plenty of non-Jews who are Israelis.

Are you asking about who are Jews? That is a very different question.

 

[Random]

I'm not sure I understand the question. I mean, I read and understand the words, but I don't understand where the underlying assumption is coming from, so the thrust of the question is lost to me.

But I'll do the best I can. Every four steps a Jew takes in the land of Israel is a commandment, explains the Ramban. Israel is where Jews belong.

If you asked me about what I think about the less than religious government that runs Israel, I could probably say that God may or may not be happy with it. But I lived there for nine months and I can tell you that God is indeed happy with Jews living there.

How do I know? It is impossible to explain.

The concept of Jews not forming a State until the coming of the Messiah is found amongst the Satmar Chassidim, who are to be greatly respected for their learning and their piety.

Regardless, the majority of Orthodox Jews disagree with their position. The fact that God allowed us to live there, and win wars like the War of Independence in 1948, and others, 1967, 1973, and others, including the miraculous lack of loss of life during the Persian Gulf War in 1991 shows us that God is interested in Jews living in Israel, even if we do so imperfectly.

And it is not right for Christians to believe that Israel is only a "spiritual" entity without physical location. Or whatever you are asking.

It refers to the Jews, those interesting people you call imposters, living in the land that God gave to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We are supposed to follow the Torah, and run the country the way God prescribed, and Rambam described in his Laws of Kingship.

Jews in Israel are far from that. But that isn't to say that some Jews aren't trying very hard to live by God's laws there, and abroad.

We may not succeed in all places, but that is not a categorical failure, either.

There is nothing you can find, I'm sure, that says that "Your own G-d is reputed to have told you to foreswear nationhood until the coming of the Messiah."

It is the job of Jews, now as ever, to do the best we can with what we have, where we are.

Okay, thanks for the honesty. If you cannot explain how you know that G-d approves other than winning wars, then I guess there is nothing more to say.

peace,
Random/Conor

 

[Harmonious]

Okay, thanks for the honesty. If you cannot explain how you know that G-d approves other than winning wars, then I guess there is nothing more to say.

peace,
Random/Conor

It is good to have finished this on a happy note.

 

[Monomonk]

Poisonshady313: Very sorry, I have gotten you mixed up with Heneni, I was agreeing with Heneni,
not you! I am not the most computer savvy person on the planet.

monomonk

 

[Heneni]

Oh never mind! Were too happy now to care.

So you started this thread...what do you make of it so far?

 

[Monomonk]

If you are right, then we are all to be excluded from heaven...unless, perhaps, you have never sinned?

Yes, we have all sinned, and most of us are still in sin, including me, but it is not that we have sinned, or still in sin that prevents us from entering into the Kingdom of God, it could be, I say it could be, that it is our reluctance to cast sin aside. The Kingdom of God is not a game, this is serious business, God is perfect and He is not going to accept that which is not perfect. There is nothing in this world harder to accomplish than to rid ourselves of sin. Winning World War Two was easy, overcoming our sins is hard, putting a man on the moon was easy, overcoming our sins is hard. "Strive to enter in at the straight gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." St. Luke 13:24. Just how much do we desire to enter in to the Kingdom: just a little, quite a bit, or do we have an extremely deep feeling for eternal life in the Kingdom of God. If we really, and truly want to get there, then I think we need to do something about it. And the "about it" is to stop sinning!

monomonk

attention: michel

 

[Heneni]

Yes, we have all sinned, and most of us are still in sin, including me, but it is not that we have sinned, or still in sin that prevents us from entering into the Kingdom of God, it could be, I say it could be, that it is our reluctance to cast sin aside. The Kingdom of God is not a game, this is serious business, God is perfect and He is not going to accept that which is not perfect. There is nothing in this world harder to accomplish than to rid ourselves of sin. Winning World War Two was easy, overcoming our sins is hard, putting a man on the moon was easy, overcoming our sins is hard. "Strive to enter in at the straight gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." St. Luke 13:24. Just how much do we desire to enter in to the Kingdom: just a little, quite a bit, or do we have an extremely deep feeling for eternal life in the Kingdom of God. If we really, and truly want to get there, then I think we need to do something about it. And the "about it" is to stop sinning!

monomonk

attention: michel

This post of yours makes a lot of sense. Its not that we sin, but that we TRULY WANT to stop sinning, thats important. If we dont and we sort of like to keep the one foot in the world and the other in the church, then we dont really want to stop sinning do we?

Im happy that god is in the judging of the heart business, because the only way to know whether someone is honest and serious about their desire to stop sinning is if god can determine it by looking at their minds and hearts.

If we look at somebody from the outside it might look like they are not being successfull at not sinning, whereas we might appear to ourselves to be getting a handle on it....

BUT, and here is the big BUT....how does anybody determine how much they LOVE god? By obeying commandments? But the commandment is to love! So everytime you want to use a checklist to see how you are fareing on the sinning side, all you have to measure yourself against is the commandment to love. And all of us know when we are in love. And love is completely and utterly irrational and voluntary.