Lourdes, What do you all think?

[michel]

There's remarkably little on Lourdes in Wikipedia; I was wondering what both theists and non theists think of the 'phenomenon'?

There are, as the article says 67 recorded miracle healings. What do you all think?




From :- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes


Lourdes (Lorda in Occitan) is a town in the Hautes-Pyrénées département in France. It is the largest Catholic religion pilgrimage location in France. It is situated in the southwest of the country in the foothills of the Pyrenees mountains, and has about 17,000 inhabitants.

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History

In February 1858, it is claimed the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to a 14-year-old girl called Bernadette Soubirous (now St. Bernadette) in the remote Grotto of Massabielle. A statue of the Madonna of Lourdes was erected at the site in 1864. Soon the previous chapel structure was replaced with a pilgrimage basilica. Bernadette Soubirous entered the Monastery of Nevers in 1866 and was canonized a Saint in 1933.
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Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes

Yearly from March to October the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes is the place of mass pilgrimages from Europe and other parts of the world. The spring water from the grotto is believed by some to possess healing properties. An estimated 200 million people have visited the shrine since 1860 [1], and the Roman Catholic Church has officially recognised 67 miracle healings. Especially impressive are candlelight and sacrament processions. Tours from all over the world are organised to visit the Sanctuary. The pilgrimage site is visited by millions of Catholics each year. Connected with this pilgrimage is often the consumption of or bathing in the so called Lourdes Water which wells out of the Grotto - the cave in which the apparitions allegedly took place in 1858.

 

[michel]

Shamelessly Bumped.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I wonder how many "miracle healings" can be attributed to Voodoo medicine, Native American rites, and crystal therapy?

When it comes to efficacy, the virile placebo trumps the Virgin Mary every time.

 

[Sunstone]

I'm unfamiliar with the miracles of Lourdes. Is it possible that someone could describe one or two of them? What sort of miracles are these?

 

[d.]

i think that if my kid claimed to have seen 'the immaculate conception' in a bush somewhere, i'd be fairly sceptical. but that's just me, i guess.

 

[ChrisP]

Normally conceptions in a bush are the local schoolkids... nothing miraculous about that.

 

[Sunstone]

If folks are merely looking for miracle healings, why haven't 200 million people made a pilgrimage to the Mayo Clinic? I'm sure there are more than 67 miracles there.

What is the attraction of miracle healings in an age when medicine routinely performs miracles?

 

[Sunstone]

Normally conceptions in a bush are the local schoolkids... nothing miraculous about that.

On the contrary, ChrisP! When I lost my virginity in the bushes as a teenager, I was firmly convinced it was indeed miraculous!

 

[michel]

i think that if my kid claimed to have seen 'the immaculate conception' in a bush somewhere, i'd be fairly sceptical. but that's just me, i guess.

:biglaugh:

Sunstone, here is a brief history;

From:- http://www.lourdes-france.org/index.php?goto_centre=ru&contexte=en&id=907&id_rubrique=907
Introduction: Cures at Lourdes today.

One hundred and fifty years after the Apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary to Bernadette, medical science has changed more during these past fifty years than in the previous one hundred years, especially in the field of diagnosis and therapy.
Therapy, which was almost non-existent at the time of Bernadette, has become more effective and available to all. There is no sick person coming to Lourdes who has never received treatment and that is how it should be. This pushing forward of medicine has achieved such a degree of sophistication that it is more difficult than ever to appreciated in a cure what is applicable to treatment and what is contributable to an inexplicable medical phenomenon. If, however, a pilgrimage with sick and disabled pilgrims is undertaken it is because a cure was not medically obtained.
Pilgrimages to Lourdes have, for a long time now, been viewed from the exterior like an enquiry into a miraculous cure. But Lourdes should not be reduced to the alternatives - miracle or no a miracle. For the Church, as well as for the believer, a pilgrimage to Mary is more than a journey to a miracle. It is a journey of love, of prayer and of the suffering community. In Lourdes, in effect, the sick, who get out of their bed of sickness and isolation in their bedroom or hospital room, are welcomed, respected, surrounded and in a lively world where they have pride of place.
In order to give an updated of miracles in Lourdes, self-declared or scientifically declared, the Church together with the doctors, have undertaken a reflection to bring the situation of Lourdes up to date and report annually on their progress. It appears that many people believe because of a media “scoop” that nothing is happening at Lourdes.

Now, we are not talking of headaches, and colds. Some of the reported ilnesses spontaneously "cured" were quite serious; from:-
http://www.tfp.org/magazine/mag73/lourdes_medical.htm

Dr. Theillier: I will tell you the story of a sixty-seven-year-old gentleman who told me of a cure he received in 1963.
During his military service in Algeria, he came down with an illness called tubercular sacroiliitis. He was sent back to France, and was a patient at the Military Hospital of Bordeaux. He was declared a complete invalid, and was awarded a military disability pension. Then someone suggested a visit to Lourdes, and once there, he was taken to the baths, but since he had a cast from his neck to his feet that was impossible to remove, a wet sponge was applied to the cast on the most painful spot.
Upon his return to the hospital in Bordeaux, he went for an X-ray, and to everyone’s surprise, the X-ray revealed that he was totally cured from tubercular sacroiliitis.

Mr. Vidigal: The purpose of your work here is to confirm medically a change to nature that medicine cannot explain. Is this what is called a supernatural action?
​

Dr. Theillier: Exactly—still, supernatural, but not against nature. It is not an action against nature because at a certain moment there is a physiological movement within someone’s organism that changes illness into health. God always gives signs that we may accept or deny. Truly, the sign is given to lead us to believe, to give us the occasion to see, to help our faith, to help us further on the way and to open our eyes to the dimension of the infinite or the invisible that are here with us but that, unfortunately, we do not see. We should not expect the amazing, for a miracle is a sign, not an amazement.

 

[BM5]

I'm unfamiliar with the miracles of Lourdes. Is it possible that someone could describe one or two of them? What sort of miracles are these?

The first recorded cure at the spring was a quarryworker who was blind in one eye due to an explosion at the quarry. All he did was bath his eye at the spring and his sight was restored.

The spring itself was considered a miracle since it was brought forth by the command of the Blessed Virgin when She pointed to the spot for the seer to dig at.

Another cure took place about the same time to a person, can't remember if it was a man or boy but this person has a piece of his lower leg bone missing so that when he hobbled along the loose limb flopped around like some grotesque puppet on a string. I think he bathed in the water and the missing piece of bone was restored.

These few come to mind but at the shrine the medical people established a place to record and authenticate any claims to a miraculous cure. A google search might turn up some info if your interested.

I find some of the caustic comments made on this thread insulting and repulsive. This event was a genuine gift from God to us and should be treated with due respect.

Don't get the idea I support and believe in the Catholic Church. There is very little of what they have that I consider genuine but one thing is for sure the apparitons of the Blessed Virgin at Lourdes and again at Fatima were and are extremly important.

I wonder if the naysayers or mockers even took the time to investigate.

 

[arielmessenger]

I will say that I have felt a spiritual connection with St. Bernadette ever since I saw the movie of her with Jennifer Jones as a kid. Perhaps it her being born a 100 years before me and having her vision of the "Immaculate Conception" in February, my birth month, that I focus on as connection. I am not a Catholic either although my grandmother's family was. But still, there's something there for me in the miracle at Lourdes and I guess perhaps millions of others by now.

 

[arielmessenger]

Paxcalibur was annointed with Lourdes water before it's final baptism in the Jordan River in 2003.

 

[BM5]

One of the supernatural signs at the apparitions which the movie didn't show was that in several instances (most i believe) the countenance of Bernadette changed from the rustic pleasant face to this angelic seraphic face full of light. The people witnessing this were dumbfounded. Her appearance changed when the " Beautiful young girl " appeared and when the vision was over Bernadette slowly changed back to her normal self.

Bernadette is a very special person but I do not pray to her or to any other saint, I ask the Blessed Virgin to pray to God for all of us sinners. Yahweh cannot resist Her petitions and therefore those who seek Her intercession with God recieve a flood of grace and those who give Her little regard might get a trickle. Those who despise Her ( even if it be because of the scandalous Catholic Church ) will when they meet Our Lord face to face get something they do not expect.

I recommend to anyone who wishes to cultivate the intercession of Our Lady of Lourdes to use this prayer:

Hail full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy
womb.
Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I admit, I find the lack of decomposition on her body to be rather creepy. I haven't read much into it, but I've seen pictures of the displayed body, and it looks rather fresh. Is this a hoax?

 

[Gentoo]

Is this a hoax?

I don't think so. I've seen the same pictures, while somewhat creepy (let's face it, her body has shown very little signs of decay and is on display like a piece of art) I don't have much doubt that it's real.

 

[kimber1]

i have a book called the incorruptibles. it's full of pictures and their stories of these remarkable people whose bodies remain intact to this day. quite amazing if you ask me.

 

[BM5]

i have a book called the incorruptibles. it's full of pictures and their stories of these remarkable people whose bodies remain intact to this day. quite amazing if you ask me.

I have had the same book and believe that there are incorruptables BUT and let me repeat "BUT" : the display of any of the remains of these privilaged persons is nothing less than an act of disrespect to the privilaged person and an affront to God. Like what are we running here " a forum for curiosity seekers " ?

Once discovered the notice could be made and the remains interred, faith and trust will be more valuable than seeing.

 

[ayani]

On the contrary, ChrisP! When I lost my virginity in the bushes as a teenager, I was firmly convinced it was indeed miraculous!

i had to quote this.

by the way, i think it's quite possible these healings are 'miraculous'. not to disregard healings in other faiths. but i do think there's something to it.

 

[BM5]

Sorry for being so frequent here but this thread is a major part of my heart.

There were 16 apparitions in all. Bernadette had no idea about what was going . The first time Bernadette was asked to come to the grotto everyday for a fortnight. The little girl who was about 14 did so. The vision was there for Bernadette to see but not every time. Once or twice the little girl went home in tears because the Beautiful Young Girl had not shown herself. People wondered at this disapointment in the young vionary and remarked that if Bernadette was a fake then why would it be that she went away so upset instead pretent to have seen the vision as before ?

Anyone who looks into the affair with even a prejuciced mind would be tempted to believe that this little girl Bernadette would be unable to sustain such a hoax for very long especially under all the scrutiny imposed upon herself and her family.

 

[BM5]

i had to quote this.

by the way, i think it's quite possible these healings are 'miraculous'. not to disregard healings in other faiths. but i do think there's something to it.

Your humor is vile.