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Logical 10 Commandments

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by EnhancedSpirit, Apr 21, 2005.

  1. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Every church I have ever visited was run as a business. This is why I stay away. It's all about money and power. This is a mock correspondence that might have occurred sometime in history, between some group leaders.

    The following letter might have been sent out to the working class.
    The ironic and the ingenious thing about this Ruling Class model (scheme), is that the same model used to train Worker Bees, was adopted by the Worker Bees as an essential human need; therefore they were unwilling to give it up. In essence, the Ruling Class had created an addiction to the very model that oppressed the Worker Bees in the first place.
     
  2. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I'm no great church-goer, but I think that's a tad judgemental.;)
     
  3. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    I do not mean to sound judgemental. It's only an observation. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I am one of the worker bees, from a long family of worker bees. But I also know several of the Ruling Class, and do not judge them, I can not place blame on any one, this is just the way things worked out. I could not see the forest through the trees until I stepped back and looked at the bigger picture.
     
  4. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    I know longer live as a worker bee for man. I seek wisdom and help others. I pay my bills and feed my children, but I do not work a 9 to 5 job. I spread the Lord's truth and he provides me with what I need, not the government, and not the church.
     
  5. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    So enhancedspirt if I am understanding you correctly you are saying that the denotation of the 10 commandments is different than the connotation. Is this correct? If so, starting with the first one you listed..# 6. You said, " Lets not kill each other. But in times of war against us lets kill the enemy." I am understand the that many Christians translate that commandment as thou shall not murder as opposed to thou shall not kill.

    But saying it is thou shall not kill ...and a christian nation or settlement is invaded by others..irregardless of the purpose of that invasion. Upon upholding their interpretation of the 6th to say thou shall not kill..they do not defend the attack but attempt to flee. The children and weaker elderly cannot flee and are slaughtered. Did the stronger members of that society help the invaders kill their elderly and children by not resisting (assuming they could) or did they obey their lord Jesus by not killing?

    Is it reasonable for a believer to say there is never a reason to kill, even in self defense or is the context of the 10 commandments a backdrop for an alternate intrepretation ? In the book of exodus as in the rest of the torah God and man both kill side by side from the red sea to the wars of the holy lands the holy wars are raged and God seems pleased. Even Moses, who held the tablets in his very hands kills a man the very first time he is read about in the Bible.

    I would contend that

    a) killing is not always avoidable and as such the absolute interpretation of the commandment does not hold

    b) God and man killed side by side through the torah suggesting in context, "that man shall not kill" was on many levels contingent as opposed to absolute.
     
  6. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    In a Church of Sweden parish, matters of finance are discussed in public once a year, when the budget is established. I find no similarities at all with businesses. A business needs to find customers to get money. Not the CoS. The fundings are automatic and relayed via the taxation system. Rather funny, because we have a strict state-church separation (although there might still be a paragraph on the Sovereign's faith).

    The products of the CoS, like services, are normally advertised, but this constitutes just a cost, not resulting in income of any kind. Nothing like business there.

    I don't know how things are managed in " Free Churches", like Pentecostals and Baptists, of which I think there are a few in Sweden. In any case, they should receive a Church tax like the CoS, RC and Muslims, based on members.

    And from my Swedish perspective, I just don't understand
    What power? Certainly not any in any legal or administrative sense. The only religious power I can think of here is when a group of Jewish intellectuals and sympathizers managed to have Yiddish acknowledged as a minority language in Sweden, despite its not fulfilling the EU criteria. Another example, rather PC than religious, was when efforts to ban genital mutilation of boys below the age of possible informed consent were thwarted. But we prohibit the docking of puppy dogs' tails!
     
  7. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    First, the 10 commandments came before the Christian. And it is not just the Christians who have started wars in the name of God.
    And I see that as a condradiction. Thou shall not kill.
    That's what the commandment says. There is no "except".

    And let me ask you this; did Jesus defend himself, did he fight for his life? No, Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek, and to love our enemies. But men who claim to be religious, claim to follow God, ignore even his 10 simple rules. Even if you have not been in a war yourself. What you think matters, and anyone who 'thinks' it's OK to go to war is just as guilty in the eyes of God as a murderer.
     
  8. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    I don't know of any one in a Higher position in society that doesn't feel a sense of Power. And this is set for 1000's of years ago, and today is the byproduct of those actions. We are all in a position to be dependent on our government for health care, child care, public schools, social security for the elderly. Of course this is only the point of view of a US citizen.

    Also, all of the religious crusades of the past were about power. You can't say that all the people who were killed for not converting to christianity were killed for their own good. No they were killed by power hungry people wanting to control the people and used the name of God and his son to do so.
     
  9. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    that's funny i always thought is was "Thou shalt not Murder"


    interesting you should bring this up...

    that's kinda harsh for someone who loves their enemy...

    and my personal favorite...jesus telling those Jews who do not believe in him are not children of Abraham but of the devil
    mmmm feel the love
     
  10. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    How long has the longest human lived? God murders everyday.
    Sometimes he murders chilidern by giving them incurable dieses that are terminal. If God existed and life is finite God murders. Your God kills repeatly and his followers follow his example. It is more of a case of do as I do not as I say.


    Jesus sounds like a wuss. By letting the romans kill him he ensured that thousands would executed after his death in the same fashion. Many of the others condemned to death by the romans may have looked for protection from him and he turned the other cheek and let them die. Some savior.

    If someone came after your children would you stand by and say "turn the other cheek" or would you attempt to stop the attacker even at the detriment of the aggressor? You don't have to answer that question on here but realize that Jesus let the romans kill thousands more by not resisting and turning the other cheek. His children left to die.
     
  11. Khale

    Khale Active Member

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    I just had to jump into this with my two cents. This is from an earlier post of mine:

    The Meaning of Kill in the Ten Commandments

    Ratsach appears 47 times in the OT. It is never used in the context of legitimate war, or in the case of self-defense (Ex 22:2), accidental killing (Dt 19:5), or in the execution of a person who has forfeited his life by "shedding man's blood" (Gn 9:6). It is also not used in the text describing how Moses slayed the Egyptian taskmaster (Ex 2:12). All of these Scriptures use a different word not found in the Sixth Commandment [Protestant version of Bible, it is the 5th in the Catholic version]. And clearly Scripture supports certain kinds of killing as viscerally regrettable but righteous nevertheless.


    The word, ratsach, does refer to killing for revenge (Nm 35:27, 30), and the premeditated killing of an innocent person (2 Kings 6:32). Therefore, when the Word says, "It is mine to avenge, I will repay, says the Lord" (Rom 12:19) there is a direct connection and precaution against usurping the role of God that relates directly to this Sixth Commandment. Only two lines later there is a designation as to whom God has delegated authority to in order to avenge wrongs done (Rom 13:1). The government then, and not the individual, has the right to punish for past offenses.
     
  12. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    God does not 'MURDER' people. People die. That is a natural thing and there is nothing wrong with dying. Innocent women and children are not murdered by God. They are brought to him. I just watched a documentary on John Walsh and his son Adam. What happened to Adam was a terrible tragedy. But how many lives have been saved because of his fathers crusade against missing children? And how many criminals have been brought to justice because of John Walsh's Americas Most Wanted? Everything happens for a reason. And when something happens do you address the situation with anger and hatred, or love and understanding? I know of many people who have lost their children, to drunk drivers, or illness, or 'freak' accidents. Have you heard the story of the mustard seed?

    A distraut woman came to Buddha wanting him to resurect her son. He told her to do so, she must find him a mustard seed from a house that has seen no death. So she went out to every house in town. She did not find a mustard seed. But what she found was in everyhouse another story of loss of a loved one. She learned that she was not alone in her pain. And she recieved a higher understanding.

    I do appreciate the clarification of murder over kill. But, many religions have 'murdered' merely because someone did not believe what they believed. Trying to justify it does not make it right.
     
  13. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Oh, and Robtex, I guess by your definition Jesus was a wuss. That's part of the reason why the Jew didn't except him. By their definition, the Saviour was going to be a warrior type. Men and their egos. I tell you, they feel like there is only one way to do things. Haven't you ever heard that you can catch more bees with honey?
     
  14. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I must say, Rob, that holding God responsible for the 'murder' of children, whilst it explains your motives for being an atheist, is a little bit 'far fetched'. Is it really your understanding that those who believe in God see him as being 'responsible' for everything that happens on Earth ?:)
     
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  15. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Jewscout, taking things out of context :tsk:

    Try This:
    Jesus did not tell them to bring him his enemies. This was a parable not a literal. He was not really talking about money, he was talking about spiritual gifts and he was speaking of spiritual death.
     
  16. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Jewscout, this is not meant to be a put down, this is a fact, the Devil is not a seperate entity. The devil is the flesh. A manifestation of our sins. Man is the devil, by his own words or deeds. That is the choice we must make, light or darkness. You are the child of the devil, because our physical fathers sinned. But we are also the children of God, who gives us everlasting life, outside of the physical. This is not Jesus talking bad about God's chosen people, he is reminding his people that they are no better than another human. He is reminding his people that they must look within themselves to find the truth.
     
  17. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    some think that...others believe that the Moshiach ben David will be a spiritual leader
     
  18. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    perhaps though he would have better phrased it so as to not make the window open for an excuse of 2000 of violence against Jews
     
  19. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    The violence against the Jews is caused by man, the devil. The window is open for all. Unfortunately, there is good and evil in the world. I am truly ashamed for all the evil that has fallen on the Jews. I say ashamed because if we are all of the same God, those who are evil are also a part of us. I am sorry for every evil thought that has gone out of me and into the universe. But I was like a child. And now that I know the truth, I know that any evil thought I might have is not private, but it has life, and creates that which is itself, evil begat evil. So I know that I must keep my thoughts in positive alignment with the Light that is God.
     
  20. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    You must spread some Karma around before giving it to EnhancedSpirit again. - this is a conspiracy !!!:banghead3

    I am fortunate enough never to have been in the position to think ill of any race. However, I feel disappointed and hurt that there is so much hatred in the world today. Disappointed because any violence that is supposedly from a religious 'faction' I can never understand. I feel that all religions (Certainly that I know of) have principles and moralities that, when it comes to the crunch, are virtually all centered on peace.

    When there is violence I don't believe it is from the 'Devil' - I cannot immagine the concept of a devil - I regard him/it as being merely the sum total of evil in humanity. I sometimes feel frustrated that I can do nothing to dispel evil, and would give anything (including my own life) to be able to do so.:(
     
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